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On November 18 2024 09:09 Sermokala wrote:
You think Trump is going to bring peace to the holy land fast? How do you think he's going to do what no one has been able to do for thousands of years?
Humans are apex predators and constantly at war.
Let's hope Trump manages the region better than the disastrous Biden regime. We're looking at 50,000+ casualties in the final 15 months of Biden's tenure. Hopefully, we see less than 50,000 casualties in the first 15 months of Trump's Presidency.
I think Trump's team will manage the region better than Biden's people. Of course, Biden had a rough time uttering a coherent paragraph these last 2.5 years; thus, Biden himself had almost no impact on US foreign policy before October 7 occurred. Trump will have more say than Biden.
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On November 18 2024 23:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 09:09 Sermokala wrote:
You think Trump is going to bring peace to the holy land fast? How do you think he's going to do what no one has been able to do for thousands of years? Humans are apex predators and constantly at war. Let's hope Trump manages the region better than the disastrous Biden regime. We're looking at 50,000+ casualties in the final 15 months of Biden's tenure. Hopefully, we see less than 50,000 casualties in the first 15 months of Trump's Presidency. I think Trump's team will manage the region better than Biden's people. Of course, Biden had a rough time uttering a coherent paragraph these last 2.5 years; thus, Biden himself had almost no impact on US foreign policy before October 7 occurred. Trump will have more say than Biden.
US Ukraine policy = Biden had no impact on US foreign policy?
What makes you think Trumps team will manage Israel/Palestine better? I mean, it's entirely possible, I just don't see any reason to believe such a thing.
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Northern Ireland27046 Posts
On November 19 2024 00:14 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 23:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 18 2024 09:09 Sermokala wrote:
You think Trump is going to bring peace to the holy land fast? How do you think he's going to do what no one has been able to do for thousands of years? Humans are apex predators and constantly at war. Let's hope Trump manages the region better than the disastrous Biden regime. We're looking at 50,000+ casualties in the final 15 months of Biden's tenure. Hopefully, we see less than 50,000 casualties in the first 15 months of Trump's Presidency. I think Trump's team will manage the region better than Biden's people. Of course, Biden had a rough time uttering a coherent paragraph these last 2.5 years; thus, Biden himself had almost no impact on US foreign policy before October 7 occurred. Trump will have more say than Biden. US Ukraine policy = Biden had no impact on US foreign policy? What makes you think Trumps team will manage Israel/Palestine better? I mean, it's entirely possible, I just don't see any reason to believe such a thing.
It really depends on what one considers ‘better’ and what outcomes one desires.
From my perspective, it’s hard to see a President who’ll give Israel basically even more carte blanche to do whatever improving things on any humanitarian level.
If one is a pro-Israel hawk, that may be considered better policy, although I would personally disagree rather vociferously there.
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On November 18 2024 23:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 09:09 Sermokala wrote:
You think Trump is going to bring peace to the holy land fast? How do you think he's going to do what no one has been able to do for thousands of years? Humans are apex predators and constantly at war. Let's hope Trump manages the region better than the disastrous Biden regime. We're looking at 50,000+ casualties in the final 15 months of Biden's tenure. Hopefully, we see less than 50,000 casualties in the first 15 months of Trump's Presidency. I think Trump's team will manage the region better than Biden's people. Of course, Biden had a rough time uttering a coherent paragraph these last 2.5 years; thus, Biden himself had almost no impact on US foreign policy before October 7 occurred. Trump will have more say than Biden.
This isn't about hopecasting this is you saying you think trump will clean up the mess fast and that Biden will look bad when trump comes in and, from your goalpost "have less than 50,000 casualties in the first 15 months of Trump's Presidency". We've seen from Trumps surrender to the taliban what his "wheeling and dealing" entails. Do you think hes going to repeat that and negotiate with Hamas in the same fashion to bring more peace to the middle east than under Biden? Rubio has said that hes not going to call for a ceasefire and his ambassador to Isreal says that Palestinians don't exist. So I'm asking how you think hes going to do that.
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On November 18 2024 23:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 09:09 Sermokala wrote:
You think Trump is going to bring peace to the holy land fast? How do you think he's going to do what no one has been able to do for thousands of years? Humans are apex predators and constantly at war.
Probably the first mistake in rightwing thought is to think that you can start a sentence with "humans are" and the sentence is going to be correct.
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On November 18 2024 23:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 09:09 Sermokala wrote:
You think Trump is going to bring peace to the holy land fast? How do you think he's going to do what no one has been able to do for thousands of years? Humans are apex predators and constantly at war. Let's hope Trump manages the region better than the disastrous Biden regime. We're looking at 50,000+ casualties in the final 15 months of Biden's tenure. Hopefully, we see less than 50,000 casualties in the first 15 months of Trump's Presidency. I think Trump's team will manage the region better than Biden's people. Of course, Biden had a rough time uttering a coherent paragraph these last 2.5 years; thus, Biden himself had almost no impact on US foreign policy before October 7 occurred. Trump will have more say than Biden.
Would you mind explaining what do you mean by "manages the region better than the disastrous Biden regime"?
Normally "managing better" would imply peace, just, fair etc. However, certain section of people would regard beating the hell out of any target Israel want as "manage the region better". I don't know which direction you are talking about and I don't want to put word in your mouth.
As for middle east policy, a strong argument can be made that the attack on 7 oct 2023 was triggered by the decision during the Trump's first presidential term, namely the Abraham Accord and recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Even though (to be fair to Trump) argument can be made that the essence of Abraham Accord was in the US middle east policy for decades. However, Trump's action most definitely broadcast to the world that the US had (officially) abandoned the two state solution policy, and able to persuade / strong arm other arab countries to do so. Since the abraham accord, the rate of settlement in west bank, back by the government and army, increased.
If you look at the nominees for the foreign affair, army or intelligence for Trump, they are all zionist, or at least very much pro-Israel people. Judgeing form past comments, those people want a war with Iran. The most anti-war / doveish person, Tulsi Gabbard's most recent comments seems to indicate she agree to the war Israel want to conduct. It would not surprise me if the USA get into a hot war with Iran within a year.
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I'm bringing the football violence back into the discussion.
Why?
It provides a great example for why it is so easy to debunk fascist far right propaganda pushes in the West these days with just a cursory bit of research and waiting for actual facts to come out.
So as of today here are some recent developments:
1: Sky News is coming under fire after its been revealed that they released a story about what happened, an accurate story describing the violence of the Maccabi ultras, but then removing that story and replacing it with a similar one, which not only had the language changed to portray Maccabi fans as pure victims but also the commentary over some of the footage was now claiming that you are watching Maccabi fans being beaten when actually the footage shows Maccabi fans doing the beatings.
2: The Mayor of Amsterdam has come out now and says she absolutely should not have used the word 'pogrom' to describe what happened, and is shocked to find that this exact language is being used by the far right to fuel islamophobia in the Netherlands.
3: A 16 year old wannabe journo has basically debunked the entire propaganda operation because he followed the Maccabi fans around for the entire night filming them going out of their way to cause as much chaos as possible.
One wonders if certain people will possess the critical thinking skills to apply what we can learn from this to the rest of the Israel media operation or whether it'll just get forgotten immediately.
Sources:
A video from Al Jazeera - generally about the Western media's failures and deliberate lies - including the Sky News thing:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Mayor of Amsterdam:
+ Show Spoiler +
The kid journo:
+ Show Spoiler +
This one talks about Reuters and their part in the lies:
+ Show Spoiler +
The real lesson here is obvious, and makes it very very obvious why so many journalists are killed in Gaza and why journos have been banned from there for a year now.
The media getting so openly caught in an obvious lie should be fatal for Israeli propaganda in Europe, but in these days of alternative facts and Trumpish refusal to see obvious reality you can never be too sure.
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The ICC has issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant for their (ongoing, US supported) war crimes/crimes against humanity.
The Chamber issued warrants of arrest for two individuals, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr Yoav Gallant, for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024, the day the Prosecution filed the applications for warrants of arrest.
The arrest warrants are classified as ‘secret’, in order to protect witnesses and to safeguard the conduct of the investigations. However, the Chamber decided to release the information below since conduct similar to that addressed in the warrant of arrest appears to be ongoing. Moreover, the Chamber considers it to be in the interest of victims and their families that they are made aware of the warrants’ existence.
www.icc-cpi.int
In fairness to them, there should be a lot of US officials facing arrest with them, but "international law" doesn't apply to the US because they'll murder you if you try to hold them accountable to it.
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https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n24/271/19/pdf/n2427119.pdf
This is a report from the UN documenting the torture, rape and abuse of Palestinians by the IDF. Its quite long but worth a read.
43. During the reporting period, Israeli military and security forces also subjected
hundreds of Palestinian women and girls to sexual and gender-based violence,
according to numerous reports and/or allegations received by the Special Committee
and other United Nations entities and experts, including OHCHR, 145 United Nations
experts 146
and the Commission of Inquiry. 147
The reports included cases of being
targeted, arbitrarily detained and subjected to forced nudity; inappropriate touching;
sexual violence, including rape; sexualized torture; threats of rape; psychological
violence; and online sexual harassment, including through the posting of degrading
photos on social media platforms. The Commission of Inquiry stressed that cultural
sensitivities related to privacy and the significance of the veil worsened the impact of
the gender-based crimes, leading to severe and long-term social repercussions for
victims due to the pervasive and lasting presence of online content. It further
concluded that Israeli military personnel either ordered or condoned the abuses, which
were intended to humiliate and degrade the victims and the Palestinian community,
reinforcing gender stereotypes and contributing to broader violence and ill-treatment
of Palestinians.148
44. United Nations experts have also documented credible allegations of deliberate
targeting and extrajudicial executions of women and children in places of refuge or
while fleeing. In February, alarms were also raised about the enforced disappearance
of Palestinian women and children by the Israeli military, including children
separated from their parents and at least one female infant forcibly transferred to
Israel.149 On 6 May, several experts warned again of the continued and systematic
onslaught of violence, noting that most victims had been women and children. They
reported new findings of mass graves at hospitals, including women and children
showing signs of torture and summary executions.150 The experts also highlighted the
destruction by Israel of the largest fertility clinic in Gaza, which reportedly stored
3,000 embryos
My conclusion would be that every single crime Israel levels at Palestinians, they are guilty of themselves but on a mass scale.
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Northern Ireland27046 Posts
Does the ICC want to be shut down or something?
Hey fair play nonetheless
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On November 22 2024 01:13 WombaT wrote:
Does the ICC want to be shut down or something?
They might shut them down for it but not doing this would have been even worse I think, how can you continue to function if you don't do something this obvious
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In terms of movement in this conflict one of the most important things is tracking when liberals start to pretend that they were always on the side of the left, and something like this indicates that we're close to getting to that point:
"Trudeau says he would 'abide by' international court and allow Netanyahu's arrest"
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trudeau-netanyahu-icc-arrest-warrant
This hits more for me in France because the islamophobia of the centrists in France is way more open (or maybe it isn't, maybe it's just that I'm more familiar with it. Honestly it's probably that), so when Macron said that he would stop sending weapons to Israel that causes a lot more whiplash from the Enthoven clo(w)nes. France and Netherlands also confirmed that they would enforce the ICC's warrants.
Unrelated and less important, since we had a round of discourse about Lonerbox a while ago here's a cool video on how to defend genocide
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On November 22 2024 23:11 Nebuchad wrote:In terms of movement in this conflict one of the most important things is tracking when liberals start to pretend that they were always on the side of the left, and something like this indicates that we're close to getting to that point: "Trudeau says he would 'abide by' international court and allow Netanyahu's arrest" https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trudeau-netanyahu-icc-arrest-warrantThis hits more for me in France because the islamophobia of the centrists in France is way more open (or maybe it isn't, maybe it's just that I'm more familiar with it. Honestly it's probably that), so when Macron said that he would stop sending weapons to Israel that causes a lot more whiplash from the Enthoven clo(w)nes. France and Netherlands also confirmed that they would enforce the ICC's warrants. Unrelated and less important, since we had a round of discourse about Lonerbox a while ago here's a cool video on how to defend genocide
Labour in the UK are similarly hinting that they would allow arrest.
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Meanwhile, Democrats in the US: “We fundamentally reject the court’s decision to issue arrest warrants for senior Israeli officials,” — White House (D)
“The ICC should be sanctioned" — Richie Torres (D)
And of course the invasion threats from Republicans:
“Woe to him and anyone who tries to enforce these outlaw warrants.” — Tom Cotton (R)
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On November 22 2024 23:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile, Democrats in the US: Show nested quote + “We fundamentally reject the court’s decision to issue arrest warrants for senior Israeli officials,” — White House (D) — Richie Torres (D) And of course the invasion threats from Republicans: — Tom Cotton (R)
Colour me surprised.
..And they are all sitting around scratching their heads wondering why they couldn't get enough votes to beat Trump.
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Northern Ireland27046 Posts
Why are vast swathes of the US quite so pro-Israel anyway?
Certain demographics I understand but the centre ground seems far more pro-Israel than basically every comparable nation as well, and that part somewhat confuses me
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On November 23 2024 01:32 WombaT wrote:
Why are vast swathes of the US quite so pro-Israel anyway?
Certain demographics I understand but the centre ground seems far more pro-Israel than basically every comparable nation as well, and that part somewhat confuses me
Israel is basically supposed to be the tip of the Manifest Destiny (for Republicans)/"Democratization" (for centrists, libs, Dems) spear for the Middle East.
Opposing Israel committing genocide is basically standing in opposition to the entirety of western civilization conceptually (as understood from a US perspective).
So you have bipartisan support for genocide and centrists without any actual integrity or values going along with them.
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On November 23 2024 01:32 WombaT wrote:
Why are vast swathes of the US quite so pro-Israel anyway?
Certain demographics I understand but the centre ground seems far more pro-Israel than basically every comparable nation as well, and that part somewhat confuses me
In part because Israel is a good customer of military equipment/tech, and the US military and government at large benefits from that relationship. But perhaps it's mainly because Israel provides very useful ME intel to the US. Then again, that relationship is strange since Trump effectively greenlit Iran's nuclear program. So maybe it has more to do with the money. But it also should not be understated that the US is (by far) one of the most racist Western countries, if not perhaps the most. Brown people are generally treated as sub-humans and Israel's enemies are mostly Arabs.
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EPT
