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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 23:30 Acrofales wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. Name one vote that was not about Israel where the US stood alone and Israel voted alongside with them. Name one where they voted against the US. Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 23:43 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. The US is a sugar daddy in this arrangement, only without many of the benefits traditionally associated with it Nothing inherently wrong with having your boy’s back in an unequal friendship, but it very much is one side giving a hell of a lot more here If you knew the answer why ask? Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America (that part you can see on the news too). I do find it funny that the claim is people want to hear what others think, but then when they say it, immediately its the pile on. Better listen to all the people who think exactly like you on what others think, sound strategy. The MIGA's are the same as the MAGA's in way to many ways. 
If you can't see the irony in this post I've lost all hope for you tbh.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 23:30 Acrofales wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. Name one vote that was not about Israel where the US stood alone and Israel voted alongside with them. Name one where they voted against the US. Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 23:43 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. The US is a sugar daddy in this arrangement, only without many of the benefits traditionally associated with it Nothing inherently wrong with having your boy’s back in an unequal friendship, but it very much is one side giving a hell of a lot more here If you knew the answer why ask? Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America (that part you can see on the news too). I do find it funny that the claim is people want to hear what others think, but then when they say it, immediately its the pile on. Better listen to all the people who think exactly like you on what others think, sound strategy. The MIGA's are the same as the MAGA's in way to many ways.
I’m old enough to remember when France became ‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’ in the mind of many for their temerity to not join the coalition of the willing in the rather ill-judged Iraq excursion.
Or indeed more contemporaneously there’s a growing cohort that wants the US to leave Ukraine, and wider Europe in a worse day of circumstances accordingly, but oddly enough quite a few of that same cohort would not remotely want the US to extend the same courtesy to Israel.
I don’t know the answer hence I asked the question. A certain segment of Christian Evangelicals, a decent chunk of the US’ Jewish populace but not all of it, that’s kinda obvious and known.
Amongst other demographics there seems a much more avowedly pro-Israel sentiment in the States than elsewhere which is rather less explicable. In my neck of the woods I’d say the median position is that Israel has a right to defend itself, but not necessarily in the manner it has chosen to, and a criticism of the continuation of settlement programs. Which I can’t really say with full confidence but seems to be somewhat similar across Europe
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United States42640 Posts
On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America.
I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors?
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Personally I love it that NCIS has become a data point in a politics thread. That show wasn't as bad as everyone made it out to be, at least when it started out.
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On November 25 2024 16:11 Turbovolver wrote:
Personally I love it that NCIS has become a data point in a politics thread. That show wasn't as bad as everyone made it out to be, at least when it started out.
Seems I'm not the only one who had a crush on Ziva!
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On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors?
I am very much aware. Are you aware that TV is both a reflection of how people think and also influences how people think? If not maybe ask a Jurassic park fan about dinosaurs and see how much of what they believe is based on the movie rather than science.
For everyone:
Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. If you actually believe that they are all using fact based rational decision making models... damn you have not been paying attention to the world at all.
But I think what is really happening is I'm one of the posters you have decided to dislike, so instead of reading for content people read for how can I get that sweet burn, how can I start a inet fight. It is easy to see how a guy who likes that kind of thing like oBlade can just completely manipulate the thread whenever he wants. He does not even need food any more, he rings the bell and you salivate.
It also seems like you guys have never had a conversation with people who don't think exactly like you in the real world, or have not figured out that you have 2 ears and only one mouth for a reason. It would be eye opening for you, I bet you would find that lots of really decent people do not think like you. And if you do not attack them viscously and personally you might even learn something! Hell, you would even have a chance to influence them if they had incorrect assumptions on the world, you know if they did not already hate you for how you treated them.
On November 25 2024 17:58 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 16:11 Turbovolver wrote:
Personally I love it that NCIS has become a data point in a politics thread. That show wasn't as bad as everyone made it out to be, at least when it started out. Seems I'm not the only one who had a crush on Ziva!
I'm guessing everyone who watched that show did! Probably blew a lot of peoples minds when they found out she was Chilean.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I
No, no it wasn't.
You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight.
On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you.
That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe.
On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high?
Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion.
Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume.
So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind.
The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking.
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On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking.
I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well.
Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel.
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So it seems cease-fire talks about Lebanon are slowing gaining ground.
This deal was previously called an Israeli gift to Trump so it's a little surprising that it would start before he takes office.
And the other thing is that previous such arrangements on Lebanon were a waste of paper.
I'll be quite surprised if this one lasts, let alone lead to a longer peace.
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It appears no different than the last peace agreement, and I'm guessing the UN will enforce it the same as before (not at all). Lebanon has no ability to enforce it so it is not even on them.
And I'm not just meaning Hezbollah, but Israel is not going to stop using their surveillance drones, which Hezbollah uses as their reasoning and Israel uses Hezbollah moving past the river as theirs.
Well I agree long term it likely won't amount to much. Short term it should stop the direct confrontation.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 26 2024 05:19 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking. I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well. Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel.
How to use the apostrophe.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On November 26 2024 05:19 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking. I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well. Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel.
You’re arguing perception here from your understanding of a US sensibility right?
In the sense I can put myself in a headspace to understand Donald Trump’s appeal without necessarily remotely agreeing that that appeal is reasonable.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 26 2024 07:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 05:19 Billyboy wrote:On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking. I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well. Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel. You’re arguing perception here from your understanding of a US sensibility right? In the sense I can put myself in a headspace to understand Donald Trump’s appeal without necessarily remotely agreeing that that appeal is reasonable.
He’s just moving goalposts.
He opened with a statement of his own understanding of the facts of the matter.
Then when his ignorance was exposed he resorted to arguing from tv.
Then he claimed it was not his understanding of the facts but rather a popular misunderstanding of the facts, in part influenced by tv, that he was repeating to show us that a lot of people, but not him, think Israel always has America’s back.
And now we’re at “are you really saying that no Americans erroneously think Israel always has America’s back” which is particularly weird because it’s the exact opposite of what I said.
I said that ignorant Americans such as him do think the erroneous thing that he put forwards as what he thought. The refutation he’s opting for is that ignorant Americans do erroneously think that thing which is an odd choice for refutation in that it exactly mirrors the accusation.
The position he’s arguing against is that no Americans incorrectly think Israel is ride or die with America. Nobody said that.
He’s not arguing anything. His posts are nonsensical, incoherent, and riddled with errors.
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On November 26 2024 07:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 05:19 Billyboy wrote:On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking. I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well. Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel. You’re arguing perception here from your understanding of a US sensibility right? In the sense I can put myself in a headspace to understand Donald Trump’s appeal without necessarily remotely agreeing that that appeal is reasonable.
Yes we are talking perceptions, unless I misread your question. I mean my opinion on other peoples perception is obviously going to be effected by my own perception. So I checked to see if I was completely alone, turns out many of the lists I can find seem to agree. And have Israel in the top 5, and only one in the middle east even listed.
https://www.thetoptens.com/nations/best-united-states-allies/
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/united-states-top-allies/
I also found this article from 2017 and it appears that at least then the Republicans agreed and had Israel 5th where as the Democrats disagreed and had them at 28 ("independents" basically split the difference with 17)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/02/03/upshot/which-country-do-americans-like-most-for-republicans-its-australia.html
This one little more recent says something similar with Israel 3rd of countries listed though only 4 percent had em in top spot. UK had a huge lead at 22% and Canada was 2nd at 6%.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/americans-who-see-israel-as-top-ally-highlight-shared-values-defense-ties/
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/27/americans-name-china-as-the-country-posing-the-greatest-threat-to-the-us/
Where they fall in the reality list is hard to say, factually we know the US gives them a ton. My presumption is that the US believes they get value out of that relationship in spite of the cost. I base that on that I do not believe the US acts altruistically when it comes to foreign policy.
On November 26 2024 06:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 05:19 Billyboy wrote:On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking. I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well. Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel. How to use the apostrophe.
Awww, thanks luv. Means a lot that you would break forum rules to share a link you felt would be helpful to me! I'll check it out next time I take a gummy and still struggle to sleep!
I look forward to your list of ranked allies!
On November 26 2024 08:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 07:51 WombaT wrote:On November 26 2024 05:19 Billyboy wrote:On November 26 2024 03:46 KwarK wrote:On November 26 2024 01:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 25 2024 14:32 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:
Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America. I hesitate to ask this but are you aware that some of the things shown on tv are portrayals of fictional events by actors? I am very much aware. Have you all forgotten that I was answering why large swaths of Americans support Israel? The question is about what they think and why they think it. I No, no it wasn't. You made this laughably false assertion of Israel being a ride or die brother to the US that always has America's back and will fight to the death alongside America anytime America has to fight. On November 23 2024 12:01 Billyboy wrote:
One additional reason is while many other countries openly hate the US and others will support some, Israel supports the US in everything and not just in the middle east (where the rest of the countries range from wanting to kill everyone to barely tolerating) . Now they have reason to but they are the US's ride or die country. A loyalty thing.
Some people want a friend who helps them be a better person. But it is pretty nice to have someone who no matter how dumb or bad your choices are they are there to do it with you. That wasn't an assertion of what is on tv or what people believe, that was a statement of what you personally believe. On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? Then I pointed out that every part of what you said is the opposite of true. There's no factual basis for it. It's some shit that you dreamed up. It's wrong. It's false. It's a delusion. Then you decided to insist that you saw on tv that Israel is fighting for America. That led me to ask you if your belief that Israel fights for America in reality was due to not understanding that tv is not reality because you had that belief and clearly stated it and then followed it with an explanation about the media you consume. So no, this isn't about why other people think a thing and the role of fictional media in shaping popular opinion. This is why you personally believe a thing to be true and the role of fictional media in creating a belief in your mind. The only reasonable explanation for your posts at this point is that you just googled "is tv real?" and are now backtracking. I guess your head cannon wins again. No one in the US thinks Israel is their greatest ally in the middle east by far, only I think that Americans believe this. Thank for your eternal wisdom, I'm glad to know that only fact and reason are behind peoples views on other countries. I wish it was like that here as well. Edit: To help me truly understand the depths of my stupidity could you rank order all of the US's ally's until you get Israel. You’re arguing perception here from your understanding of a US sensibility right? In the sense I can put myself in a headspace to understand Donald Trump’s appeal without necessarily remotely agreeing that that appeal is reasonable. He’s just moving goalposts. He opened with a statement of his own understanding of the facts of the matter. Then when his ignorance was exposed he resorted to arguing from tv. Then he claimed it was not his understanding of the facts but rather a popular misunderstanding of the facts, in part influenced by tv, that he was repeating to show us that a lot of people, but not him, think Israel always has America’s back. And now we’re at “are you really saying that no Americans erroneously think Israel always has America’s back” which is particularly weird because it’s the exact opposite of what I said. I said that ignorant Americans such as him do think the erroneous thing that he put forwards as what he thought. The refutation he’s opting for is that ignorant Americans do erroneously think that thing which is an odd choice for refutation in that it exactly mirrors the accusation. The position he’s arguing against is that no Americans incorrectly think Israel is ride or die with America. Nobody said that. He’s not arguing anything. His posts are nonsensical, incoherent, and riddled with errors.
I mean it is impressive that you know what I think and my intentions. I'm probably wrong on them myself so even though I'll default to your obviously correct assessment, I'll let you know what I was thinking.
I made what I thought was a whimsical post that almost no one enjoyed in response to Wombat asking why a bunch of America supported Israel. + Show Spoiler +I say almost because I know at least one person really enjoyed both the post and the wild reactions
Hopefully this can calm your anger and I can avoid being on the long list of people you seek out to attack and insult. But if not, I'm ok with that too! It is pretty funny when you don't take it to serious. Cheers!
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On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 23:30 Acrofales wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. Name one vote that was not about Israel where the US stood alone and Israel voted alongside with them. Name one where they voted against the US. Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 23:43 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. The US is a sugar daddy in this arrangement, only without many of the benefits traditionally associated with it Nothing inherently wrong with having your boy’s back in an unequal friendship, but it very much is one side giving a hell of a lot more here If you knew the answer why ask? Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America (that part you can see on the news too). I do find it funny that the claim is people want to hear what others think, but then when they say it, immediately its the pile on. Better listen to all the people who think exactly like you on what others think, sound strategy. The MIGA's are the same as the MAGA's in way to many ways.
Huh? Who cares. You're claiming Israel is the US' greatest ally, standing by the US through thick and thin. It'd appear to mean other allies drop the US and leave them hanging but Israel is always there for them.
But that seems delusional. I can't think of a single vote where the UK voted the opposite from the US, except when it came to Israel. And the UK is on the security council and doesn't receive billions upon billions in aid from the US every year. Together with the UK there's of course the rest of the five eyes: Canada, Australia, and to a lesser extent, New Zealand.
Anyway, if you want a position where Israel has openly criticized the US, it is necessarily a middle eastern matter, because that is really the only part of the world, Israel has relevance. They aren't going to oppose US in how it deals in the Pacific theater or South America. But the JCPOA stands out. First Israel openly opposed the deal, then the US pulled out of it, and Israel criticized the US for ditching.
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On November 26 2024 09:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 09:14 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 23:30 Acrofales wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. Name one vote that was not about Israel where the US stood alone and Israel voted alongside with them. Name one where they voted against the US. On November 23 2024 23:43 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2024 22:52 Billyboy wrote:On November 23 2024 15:27 KwarK wrote:
Israel supports the US in very little. It wasn't in Afghanistan. It wasn't in Iraq. It didn't bomb Libya but it did attack a US navy ship. It won't support Ukraine. It openly contradicts US policy in the region. It squabbles with Turkey.
Are you high? I mean obviously, it was Friday night, if you were not, you are really missing out. If Israel moved their military around how helpful would that be to the US? They want that large force their to counter balance Iran now, and the USSR before. I was talking about how they support them in the UN, the people don't constantly talk about shit the US, maybe I'm wrong but when I see votes in the US that go against the US one of the only people voting with them over and over. I'm not saying that they are a vassal state like Belarus is to Russia, or a proxy like Hezbollah is to Iran. But that is the inaccurate comparison that people who hate the US and go down the rabbit hole get to because of their close relationship. The US is a sugar daddy in this arrangement, only without many of the benefits traditionally associated with it Nothing inherently wrong with having your boy’s back in an unequal friendship, but it very much is one side giving a hell of a lot more here If you knew the answer why ask? Maybe you are all right and I don't know what they think. But I just spent a week with a bunch of American farmers and they all seemed to support "Israel's right to defend itself" and according to them Israel has their back so they had theirs. Which makes sense to me when I watch American TV and see the good guys as Israeli commandos who storm in to help, or Mossad agents who have the key intel, and the other countries as the terrorists burning American flags and chanting death to America (that part you can see on the news too). I do find it funny that the claim is people want to hear what others think, but then when they say it, immediately its the pile on. Better listen to all the people who think exactly like you on what others think, sound strategy. The MIGA's are the same as the MAGA's in way to many ways. Huh? Who cares. You're claiming Israel is the US' greatest ally, standing by the US through thick and thin. It'd appear to mean other allies drop the US and leave them hanging but Israel is always there for them. But that seems delusional. I can't think of a single vote where the UK voted the opposite from the US, except when it came to Israel. And the UK is on the security council and doesn't receive billions upon billions in aid from the US every year. Together with the UK there's of course the rest of the five eyes: Canada, Australia, and to a lesser extent, New Zealand. Anyway, if you want a position where Israel has openly criticized the US, it is necessarily a middle eastern matter, because that is really the only part of the world, Israel has relevance. They aren't going to oppose US in how it deals in the Pacific theater or South America. But the JCPOA stands out. First Israel openly opposed the deal, then the US pulled out of it, and Israel criticized the US for ditching.
In spite of those comments, what country do you think most Americans would say is the US's greatest ally against Iran? I'm not sure that Israel being mad the US for not going far enough would shake that. They also disagreed on how to treat Iraq, especially in the first war where the US had to use their diplomatic might to hold the Israelis back, something the first George Bush probably regrets and the second one tried to rectify.
It was clearly a post I didn't put a ton of thought into, but it also is not nearly as wrong as you guys make it out it be. There is even some data I've found since that backs up that some people in the US think of Israel as US's top ally and many think of them as one of the top. I'm not sure that Israel saying the US is being weak on Iran is going to drastically change that belief, hell the people who think Israel is one of the top allies likely agree with Israel that the US has been to soft on them.
Though maybe that has changed, I have not seen any recent stuff since MAGA took over the Republican party. For what its worth my small sample size are pretty soft on Russia, but still seem to support Israel and hate Iran.
I'm sure you could make a really great rational and logical list that had Israel much lower on the list. I'm not sure how real world accurate it would be because none of us have any idea how much intelligence Israel provides the US that they couldn't get themselves or how to score the value of US being able to always use Israel as a launching point in the middle east. Either way I don't think that list would change anyone's perceptions no matter how it shook out.
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On November 26 2024 06:13 pmp10 wrote:So it seems cease-fire talks about Lebanon are slowing gaining ground.This deal was previously called an Israeli gift to Trump so it's a little surprising that it would start before he takes office. And the other thing is that previous such arrangements on Lebanon were a waste of paper. I'll be quite surprised if this one lasts, let alone lead to a longer peace.
Have a Lebanese acquaintance that is playing "dodge the Israeli bombing", and she's said she's heard it's only going to be a 60 day ceasefire - lifted just in time for Trump to have Israel do whatever it wants again.
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This is a 60 day truce deal (proposal)
The proposed truce would be for an initial period of 60 days and include the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon, according to media reports.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c93qe2v1n3eo
It does feel like a deal to get israel and hezbollah to stop shooting for a while and wait for trump to become president, so that whatever happen, the dem can blame trump kind of deal.
From what I heard in other sources, the israel ground army fail to move into lebanon in any meaningful way, they got repelled and suffered significant casualty. If that is the case, then it is Netanyanhau who need this truce rather than Hezbollah,and it might quietly turn into a cease-fire.
On the other hand, it is out of character of the israelis that they would contemplate any deal if they are winning hand down.
However, some of the information in the possible truce deal is very strange, which might or might not be true in the actual deal, we might have to wait and see.
The elephant in the room is that if Netanyanhau does not agree to this deal, there is nothing to think about. lol.
EDIT:
A long lasting peace can only be obtained if both sides accept that the other side is here to stay (i.e. we are not going to be able to kill them / we cannot afford the cost of killing all of them), or one side actually kill everyone from the other side.
Something drastic have to change in the middle east for either condition to be met. It would take at least a very long essay to start to discuss this topic. lol
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On November 26 2024 16:03 mounteast02 wrote:This is a 60 day truce deal (proposal) Show nested quote +The proposed truce would be for an initial period of 60 days and include the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon, according to media reports. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c93qe2v1n3eoIt does feel like a deal to get israel and hezbollah to stop shooting for a while and wait for trump to become president, so that whatever happen, the dem can blame trump kind of deal. From what I heard in other sources, the israel ground army fail to move into lebanon in any meaningful way, they got repelled and suffered significant casualty. If that is the case, then it is Netanyanhau who need this truce rather than Hezbollah,and it might quietly turn into a cease-fire. On the other hand, it is out of character of the israelis that they would contemplate any deal if they are winning hand down. However, some of the information in the possible truce deal is very strange, which might or might not be true in the actual deal, we might have to wait and see. The elephant in the room is that if Netanyanhau does not agree to this deal, there is nothing to think about. lol. EDIT: A long lasting peace can only be obtained if both sides accept that the other side is here to stay (i.e. we are not going to be able to kill them / we cannot afford the cost of killing all of them), or one side actually kill everyone from the other side. Something drastic have to change in the middle east for either condition to be met. It would take at least a very long essay to start to discuss this topic. lol
About 80 IDF soldiers killed is not particularly significant casualties. But no, they didn't get very far. And to be fair I don't think they wanted to either.
I think there are many factors at play here.
The first one is that Israel learned from their mistakes. Hezb grew strong when they were the only group who opposed Israeli occupation and especially after they kicked out Israel. Right now Hezb is not particularly popular in Lebanon, but a larger and longer occupation might change that and see them growing again.
Fighting against Hezb inside Lebanon when the former are doing guerilla warfare is also playing straight into their hands. Especially if IDF starts capturing more and more territory in order to try to really wipe them out, which is close to an impossible task.
Recently Israel has been hitting a lot of buildings in Beirut (giving warning before). Some posts basically said "it looks like they have run out of military targets". This might be true. Israel almost decapitated Hezb at the start of the war and then hit a lot of tunnels and other targets. But they have probably killed and destroyed most, or even all, targets they knew about now. Doing any meaningful damage short of full scale ground assault (as explained above, a bad idea) might not be possible.
Hezb has also taken a lot of damage. Far from destroyed, probably still the most powerful force in Lebanon. Certainly more powerful than the regular army. No one else in Lebanon wants to fight Hezb. But the organisation is wounded and there is going to be a quite big power vacuum. If Israel backs out now it's going to be filled by other groups (the other militias and/or Lebanese army). If Israel stays large chance of Hezb regrowing their support and eventually organisation due to fighting against occupation.
I don't think Israel expects this to be the end of things. But maybe if quite some time passes and Hezb starts launching rockets again in large numbers, and Israel can repeat the same strategy as now, maybe then the army, other groups and Lebanese society in general will have both the strength and the motivation to end Hezb and their (Irans) influence in the country.
Also it's an immensely powerful message to Hamas. Hezb stated that Israeli citizens in the north will not be able to move back before the situation in Gaza is solved. Now they willingly back down leaving Hamas alone.
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EPT
