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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On October 03 2024 07:22 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2024 06:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 03 2024 05:22 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2024 05:05 BlackJack wrote:On October 02 2024 06:42 Nebuchad wrote: To other people who recognize themselves in this argument, what is a number of civilians that would be a price above what you are willing to pay? What are you asking here? A whole number of civilian deaths someone would be okay with in Israel's retaliatory attack on Iran? What's your answer? Mine would be zero, I decided that Israel was wrong based on my perception of what they're trying to do, not based on the method they're using to do it. That is perhaps a bit non responsive because there is no way for Israel to achieve the land grab of West Bank and Gaza with zero civilian casualties, so maybe this becomes a little bit circular. But in my opinion most people function like this, similarly I didn't need to check on how Russia was treating ukrainian civilians before I decided to oppose the invasion of Ukraine. Now I'm being faced with the argument that the people I'm against are just okay with some civilian deaths in pursuit of a goal, and I suspect that's not really what's happening. I think they don't care about those civilians at all, and there is no number of them that Israel could kill where they would change their stance. But the civilians on their side, those civilians they care very deeply about, and the death of any number of them immediately justifies any consequence to the enemy population. Another way to say the same thing is that some of those civilians are humans, and the others aren't. Am I misreading you or do you think this war between Israel and Iran is about the land in Gaza and the Westbank? Is it your belief that Iran would stop attacking Israel if the two state solution happened? If a comprehensive peace deal were reached between Israel and Palestine that established a real two-state solution, then Iran would lose 2 very valuable proxy forces, and a lot of geopolitical clout in the area. So obviously Iran will oppose any moves toward lasting peace. That said, it isn't very clear to me Iran would be willing or even able to disrupt the situation if *magically* a two-state solution was agreed upon. The reason I emphasized that it would need to appear magically is because we are a very very long way away from Israel and Palestine agreeing that the sky is blue, let alone a way to live together. And even if they start talking, there is going to be plenty of opportunities to disrupt peace negotiations. There will be plenty of radical Palestinians who hate the very idea of peaceful coexistence, and Iran will no doubt keep using them to ensure that never happens. The same way there are plenty of Israelis who hate the idea and will go to extremes to ensure that never happens. Iran is a disruptive force here, but it's not as if Iran is the one forcing Hamas and Hezbollah to fight: all Iran is doing is ensuring there is a good supply of weapons for the Palestinians to keep fighting with. The US is doing a similar thing for the other side... They'd lose one proxy at best if Hamas agrees to disarm or at least give up control of Gaza. Hezbollah will exist no matter what happens to the Palestinians. They're deeply embedded in the Shiite part of Lebanon, support Assad in various ways, and support militias in Iraq. As will their hatred of Israel. The 2006 war between them had nothing to do with the Palestinians. You also understate Iran's support. Iran doesnt just provide weapons but also training, funds, and advice via the irgc.
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United States41362 Posts
On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. It's true, there's literally no history of antisemitism anywhere before 1947.
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On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
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Gulf states have pledged neutrality...things aren't getting much better are they (i.e. they are only doing this because shit's hitting the fan so hard they want nothing to do with it)
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On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction.
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On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
Honestly I've rarely heard a worse take than this. I think you might want to consider taking this back. I'm offering to delete my response (as it contains your quote) if you decide to delete your comment.
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