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On October 03 2024 07:22 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2024 06:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 03 2024 05:22 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2024 05:05 BlackJack wrote:On October 02 2024 06:42 Nebuchad wrote:
To other people who recognize themselves in this argument, what is a number of civilians that would be a price above what you are willing to pay? What are you asking here? A whole number of civilian deaths someone would be okay with in Israel's retaliatory attack on Iran? What's your answer? Mine would be zero, I decided that Israel was wrong based on my perception of what they're trying to do, not based on the method they're using to do it. That is perhaps a bit non responsive because there is no way for Israel to achieve the land grab of West Bank and Gaza with zero civilian casualties, so maybe this becomes a little bit circular. But in my opinion most people function like this, similarly I didn't need to check on how Russia was treating ukrainian civilians before I decided to oppose the invasion of Ukraine. Now I'm being faced with the argument that the people I'm against are just okay with some civilian deaths in pursuit of a goal, and I suspect that's not really what's happening. I think they don't care about those civilians at all, and there is no number of them that Israel could kill where they would change their stance. But the civilians on their side, those civilians they care very deeply about, and the death of any number of them immediately justifies any consequence to the enemy population. Another way to say the same thing is that some of those civilians are humans, and the others aren't. Am I misreading you or do you think this war between Israel and Iran is about the land in Gaza and the Westbank? Is it your belief that Iran would stop attacking Israel if the two state solution happened? If a comprehensive peace deal were reached between Israel and Palestine that established a real two-state solution, then Iran would lose 2 very valuable proxy forces, and a lot of geopolitical clout in the area. So obviously Iran will oppose any moves toward lasting peace. That said, it isn't very clear to me Iran would be willing or even able to disrupt the situation if *magically* a two-state solution was agreed upon. The reason I emphasized that it would need to appear magically is because we are a very very long way away from Israel and Palestine agreeing that the sky is blue, let alone a way to live together. And even if they start talking, there is going to be plenty of opportunities to disrupt peace negotiations. There will be plenty of radical Palestinians who hate the very idea of peaceful coexistence, and Iran will no doubt keep using them to ensure that never happens. The same way there are plenty of Israelis who hate the idea and will go to extremes to ensure that never happens. Iran is a disruptive force here, but it's not as if Iran is the one forcing Hamas and Hezbollah to fight: all Iran is doing is ensuring there is a good supply of weapons for the Palestinians to keep fighting with. The US is doing a similar thing for the other side...
They'd lose one proxy at best if Hamas agrees to disarm or at least give up control of Gaza. Hezbollah will exist no matter what happens to the Palestinians. They're deeply embedded in the Shiite part of Lebanon, support Assad in various ways, and support militias in Iraq. As will their hatred of Israel. The 2006 war between them had nothing to do with the Palestinians. You also understate Iran's support. Iran doesnt just provide weapons but also training, funds, and advice via the irgc.
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United States42840 Posts
On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere.
It's true, there's literally no history of antisemitism anywhere before 1947.
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On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere.
Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
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Gulf states have pledged neutrality...things aren't getting much better are they (i.e. they are only doing this because shit's hitting the fan so hard they want nothing to do with it)
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On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction.
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On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
Honestly I've rarely heard a worse take than this. I think you might want to consider taking this back.
I'm offering to delete my response (as it contains your quote) if you decide to delete your comment.
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On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction.
His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question?
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On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question?
I don't think Israelis are in danger of being genocided, the concern is very weak and I don't believe there's a lot of need to talk about it. The concern, itself, is deflection from the things that Biff was talking about. Instead of addressing his post, Elroi talked about a very unlikely bad outcome from the last thing he said.
LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care.
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On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? I don't think Israelis are in danger of being genocided, the concern is very weak and I don't believe there's a lot of need to talk about it. The concern, itself, is deflection from the things that Biff was talking about. Instead of addressing his post, Elroi talked about a very unlikely bad outcome from the last thing he said. LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care.
Elroi's point is not deflection from what Biff was talking about. Biff said antisemitism is fueled by Israel's treatment of Palestinians and Elroi's point is that it's possible that the hatred of Jews is so ideologically inherent that a change in course by Israel is not going to make Palestinians suddenly stop hating Jews. Similarly some change in behavior by homosexuals in Gaza is not going to make Palestinians stop hating homosexuals because the hatred is ideologically driven and not because the gays are oppressing anyone.
Throwing out "I don't think you even care about homosexuals in Gaza" does nothing to address his argument. It's just ad hominem to distract from his point.
LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians.
See, the fact you feel compelled to state this tells me you don't understand his point and you think he is simply trying to call you out for not caring about LGBT in Gaza. Not everything is a dick measuring contest of virtue signalling of who cares the most about Palestinians, straight or gay. He's not trying to call you out on not "focusing" on LGBT rights in Gaza. His argument was what I reworded in the first paragraph of this post.
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On October 05 2024 07:24 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? I don't think Israelis are in danger of being genocided, the concern is very weak and I don't believe there's a lot of need to talk about it. The concern, itself, is deflection from the things that Biff was talking about. Instead of addressing his post, Elroi talked about a very unlikely bad outcome from the last thing he said. LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care. Elroi's point is not deflection from what Biff was talking about. Biff said antisemitism is fueled by Israel's treatment of Palestinians and Elroi's point is that it's possible that the hatred of Jews is so ideologically inherent that a change in course by Israel is not going to make Palestinians suddenly stop hating Jews. Similarly some change in behavior by homosexuals in Gaza is not going to make Palestinians stop hating homosexuals because the hatred is ideologically driven and not because the gays are oppressing anyone. Throwing out "I don't think you even care about homosexuals in Gaza" does nothing to address his argument. It's just ad hominem to distract from his point.
Biff wasn't here to talk about antisemitism, the point was already deflected. There is more than one post in this thread.
Nobody believes that antisemitism will "suddenly stop" if Israel changes course, you made that up, of course there will still be antisemitism. It doesn't follow from antisemitism existing that Israelis are in danger of being genocided, that's a massive jump in logic.
And yeah of course it was an ad hominem, I knew that already. But it wasn't to deflect, it's because pinkwashing is gross. A better example of something that was done to deflect is when Sadist pointed out to you that just because there's a rise in crimes doesn't mean it's Haitians doing it, it could be hate crimes on Haitians and you talked about some other population that is linked to gangs.
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On October 05 2024 07:40 Nebuchad wrote:
And yeah of course it was an ad hominem, I knew that already. But it wasn't to deflect, it's because pinkwashing is gross. A better example of something that was done to deflect is when Sadist pointed out to you that just because there's a rise in crimes doesn't mean it's Haitians doing it, it could be hate crimes on Haitians and you talked about some other population that is linked to gangs.
That wasn't deflection. That's a conscious decision to move on to another example because the evidence Sadist required to move him off agnosticism doesn't exist so it's pointless to go back and forth on it. Kind of off topic.
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On October 05 2024 03:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. It's true, there's literally no history of antisemitism anywhere before 1947.
That’s not a very good point.
Modern antisemitism - as the antisemitism born in the wake of the waves of ashkenaze immigrants in central europe in the mid XIXth century and that culminated with the Holocaust - is not really a thing anymore. The judeophobia of the previous centuries neither.
Contemporary antisemitism is absolutely centered around Israel and its treatment of palestinians. There are no party that has an antisemitic platform in the West, there is virtually no hostility from non muslim communities towards Jews.
I think it’s not hard to argue that if anything, muslims are the new jews. There is so much in common between the jewish immigrants of the 1860s and the Muslim immigrants in europe today. And the hatred is rooted in the same arguments, the same rhetoric and the same mechanisms.
But anyways. The idea that israel is protecting the Jews from a holocaust is just ridiculous. Where and by whom?
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Northern Ireland25517 Posts
On October 05 2024 10:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 03:32 KwarK wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. It's true, there's literally no history of antisemitism anywhere before 1947. That’s not a very good point. Modern antisemitism - as the antisemitism born in the wake of the waves of ashkenaze immigrants in central europe in the mid XIXth century and that culminated with the Holocaust - is not really a thing anymore. The judeophobia of the previous centuries neither. Contemporary antisemitism is absolutely centered around Israel and its treatment of palestinians. There are no party that has an antisemitic platform in the West, there is virtually no hostility from non muslim communities towards Jews. I think it’s not hard to argue that if anything, muslims are the new jews. There is so much in common between the jewish immigrants of the 1860s and the Muslim immigrants in europe today. And the hatred is rooted in the same arguments, the same rhetoric and the same mechanisms. But anyways. The idea that israel is protecting the Jews from a holocaust is just ridiculous. Where and by whom?
I really don’t think this is correct at all, bolded aside
It certainly doesn’t help, but there’s still a ton of old-fashioned anti-Semitism to go around, centred around the same tropes that are centuries if not longer in the making.
If I was to wager, a lot of anti-Semites also have no great love for Muslims either, I don’t feel they’ll be particularly stoked into prejudice by any particular sympathy for that cause.
Anti-semitism coming from the left wing of the spectrum, yeah I think Israeli policy is a big contributory factor. Not so that from the right. And there’s a lot of both.
You do perhaps mitigate it but it’s still going to be a prevalent phenomenon even if this conflict was solved this evening.
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United States42840 Posts
So the initial argument was that antisemitism started in 1947 with the creation of Israel. When I pointed out that there's a mountain of evidence of antisemitism predating 1947 that you're somehow ignoring you revised your argument. The new argument is that while there was an awful lot antisemitism in 1945 the world got over that and antisemitism was actually fixed by around 1946 but then unfortunately Israel was created and by 1947 antisemitism was back and the Jews were to blame for it.
I dunno man, feels like you're grasping at straws here.
Might just wanna admit you misspoke when you asserted that the treatment of Palestinians is the cause of antisemitism.
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On October 05 2024 11:14 KwarK wrote:
The new argument is that while there was an awful lot antisemitism in 1945 the world got over that and antisemitism was actually fixed by around 1946 but then unfortunately Israel was created and by 1947 antisemitism was back and the Jews were to blame for it.
Dang, some pretty unfortunate timing there
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He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for.
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On October 01 2024 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Name one person in this thread who doesn't condemn Muslim terrorist attacks. I'll wait.
Name one person in this thread who actually engaged meaningfully and in-depth with the civilian casualty rate, impossible data sets published by the Gazan MoH or the humanitarian aid-topic which clearly shows that enough food has entered Gaza.
I'll wait (doing so since at least 30 pages).
On October 01 2024 13:05 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2024 04:08 RvB wrote:On September 30 2024 14:45 Husyelt wrote:On September 30 2024 02:47 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 23:33 Husyelt wrote:On September 29 2024 14:58 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 11:56 Husyelt wrote:On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote:
Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now. Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza. "A Waco a day, the IDF way" Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda. https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says.Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin. https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5123377/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-fightingIn one day Israel killed 500 Lebanese people. All to kill 1 dude. Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher. Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza. For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person: Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.
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The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster.
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On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
www.npr.org What on earth are you talking about. The current death toll in Gaza is over 50,000. Hamas killed 800 civilians. Thats 50-1. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. at the end of the day lets say the death counts of civilians and terrorists is split between our numbers. Israel has no post war plan for Gaza. it had none for 2006, and it has none for 2024. the occupation will continue until Hamas lashes out, and Israel will turn the civilian population to rubble until morale improves. Reread your own initial post: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already You were clearly talking about a civilian to terrorist death ratio. Especially in the context of the 300-1 number since that was the estimated number of deaths in the Nasrallah strike. Now you're changing it to something else again and it's not even a proper comparison. There are around 41500 fatalities according to Gaza health ministry. That includes Hamas militants yet you only use Israeli civilians. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. You're selectively quoting. Leaving it out makes no difference to the point I was making. Your own source shows that the airstrikes are in multiple parts of Lebanon with significant casualties for Hezbollah. As I pointed out earlier Israel has eliminated most Hezbollahs senior leadership in a week. It's clearly part of their strategy: The IDF is conducting a decapitation campaign targeting senior Hezbollah leadership as part of its air campaign across Lebanon. This campaign could impact Hezbollah’s ability to effectively organize and direct its forces. The IDF reported that its September 24 airstrike which killed Hezbollah’s Rocket and Missile Unit Commander Ibrahim Muhammad Qabisi also killed Qabisi’s deputy Abbas Sharafeddine and a senior commander from Hezbollah’s missile division, Hussein Ezzeddine.[7] Ezzeddine was reportedly close to the former top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr, who Israel killed in late July.[8] The IDF has conducted several major airstrikes in recent days targeting senior Hezbollah commanders and their communication networks.[9] CTP-ISW noted that Israel detonating Hezbollah pagers and personal radios disrupted the group’s internal communications and may have prompted the group to begin using less secure methods of communication that Israel could then intercept and exploit.[10] www.understandingwar.orgYou're free to criticize Israel but at least stick to the facts. edit: ofc im free to criticize Israel, thats the point. we criticize our allies when they do wrong. I love France maybe more than any other ally, but what they did in Algiers is an abomination. Israel is doing that on steroids. If you think for a even a second that 41,000 Gazans (terrorist + civilians) killed is about right, I have some settlements to sell you in the West Bank. The real numbers are into the hundred thousand plus if Israel would allow actual journalists in. If Oct the 7th went in a different direction, lets say the IDF was somewhat aware of what was going on, and during the fighting and chaos, dozens of Hamas groups got confused and went into Israel proper with the hostages. Into homes, hospitals, schools, industrial areas etc. Do you think for a millisecond that they would have targeted those terrorists in a different manner than they have in Gaza? They would have sent in special military operations, isolated them, and forced fight or surrender or be killed. But hostages and Hamas go back to Gaza? lol bro we going to drop more bombs than the allies did on Dresden, cause fuck yeah we can. Hamas is even worse than Nazis, their civilian population deserves it. "Remember these are animals, less than humans. Hamas should not be dealt with with special ops, that may lead to more IDF soldier losses. no... no they need 7,000 2000 lb bombs on the entirety of Gaza. Does it matter that Hamas is .5% as powerful and dangerous as the Nazi empire? no. Please dont think about the scale of power here. hoo boy collective punishment sure looks so good on us. Are we 25 times as powerful as Hamas and Hezbollah combined? yes. but please consider how much they hate us. dont look at mathematical numbers and backed by the worlds superpower. Definitely dont do that. Otherwise we may look like we are the Occupiers illegally for 15+ years. Dont do that.
You also probably never compared the civilian casualty rate to comparable conflict zones, right? Otherwise, such delusional statements should be impossible to make.
On October 04 2024 00:09 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2024 23:53 Billyboy wrote:Guesses on Israel's respond to Iran's missile barrage? Poll: Israel's response to Iran's barageStrike on Iranian Oil refining (5) 50% Strike on military bases (2) 20% Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities (2) 20% Attack on everything, full war. (1) 10% Strike on Iranian air defense (0) 0% 10 total votes Your vote: Israel's response to Iran's barage (Vote): Strike on Iranian air defense
(Vote): Strike on military bases
(Vote): Strike on Iranian Oil refining
(Vote): Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities
(Vote): Attack on everything, full war.
Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll kill more civies than Iran did.
So? What's the point of this senseless statement? Iran does not want peace in the region as it will lose valuable proxies. Of course it shits on the repercussions that its actions inflict on civilians (especially the ones that will be killed my Israel).
Or what is your solution? That Israel simply takes attacks like 7th of October, hostage takings, firings of rockets for one year straight, etc.?
On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care.
Palestinians are not killed because they are Palestinians. They are killed as a byproduct of a war that started because Hamas escalated the Middle Eastern conflict on 7th of October in the most brutal and unnecessary fashion with Hezbollah joining the party on October 8th.
Your annoying, falsely portrayed narrative is so blatantly false and you choose to ignore the actual facts that counter your delusional perspective since I entered this thread.
1. The civilian casualty rate speaks against deliberate killings of civilians as comparable war zones have much higher ones
2. The demography of Palestine versus the civilian casualty rate speak against deliberate killings of civilians
3. The humanitarian aid provided by Israel speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians
4. The constant providing of water and maintaining of Israel of pipes damaged by Hamas speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians
This pathetic display of cognitive dissonance of you and the others that share this view has truly reached comical heights. You say you are not interested in discussing the humanitarian aid issue? Of course you don't, as it weakens your position. Contrary, you'd be the first to mention it at every possible occasion, if it would support your view.
As it stands... Not one of you is able to address the concerns I raised over and over and over - simply ridiculous.
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I tried to "Discuss the humanitarian aid issue" but unfortunately the person I was discussing it with is so utterly taken with Israeli propaganda they actually refused to believe the clearly documented fact that Israel blocked aid deliberately, despite Israeli government ministers discussing why, when and how they were doing it as it happened.
Sometimes discussing things is counter productive.
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On October 05 2024 18:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
I tried to "Discuss the humanitarian aid issue" but unfortunately the person I was discussing it with is so utterly taken with Israeli propaganda they actually refused to believe the clearly documented fact that Israel blocked aid deliberately, despite Israeli government ministers discussing why, when and how they were doing it as it happened.
Sometimes discussing things is counter productive.
The last time you addressed this, I replied with the paragraph below, to which you never followed up, so thanks for proving my point, I guess (at least the in-depth part).
If by chance I missed your reply to this - sorry! I am usually only able to catch up on the weekends so sometimes I miss things.
If so please quote your reply and I will come back - no worries.
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After we started quite good, I have reservations, engaging with you, after our last exchange. But I will give it another try.
Yes, I gave reasons why I think that much of the data that was provided by MoH (Hamas controlled) needs to be questioned.
Do you have issues with these reasons? If so, what issues?
I don't follow. I said that even when not taking into account the necessary corrections, Israel's casualty rate in comparison to comparable conflict zones is insanely commendable.
But these goods were not "indefinitely delayed".
Did you read about the numbers on how many tracks went into Gaza since the start of the war?
Do you accept the 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom? The full warehouses Hamas said it has? If the goods were indefinitely delayed, how could these 650 trucks be at Kerem Shalom? How could the warehouses of Hamas burst with stolen humanitarian goods? From who did Hamas steal these goods?
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On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for.
Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism.
I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right?
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EPT
