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On October 03 2024 07:22 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2024 06:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 03 2024 05:22 Nebuchad wrote:On October 03 2024 05:05 BlackJack wrote:On October 02 2024 06:42 Nebuchad wrote: To other people who recognize themselves in this argument, what is a number of civilians that would be a price above what you are willing to pay? What are you asking here? A whole number of civilian deaths someone would be okay with in Israel's retaliatory attack on Iran? What's your answer? Mine would be zero, I decided that Israel was wrong based on my perception of what they're trying to do, not based on the method they're using to do it. That is perhaps a bit non responsive because there is no way for Israel to achieve the land grab of West Bank and Gaza with zero civilian casualties, so maybe this becomes a little bit circular. But in my opinion most people function like this, similarly I didn't need to check on how Russia was treating ukrainian civilians before I decided to oppose the invasion of Ukraine. Now I'm being faced with the argument that the people I'm against are just okay with some civilian deaths in pursuit of a goal, and I suspect that's not really what's happening. I think they don't care about those civilians at all, and there is no number of them that Israel could kill where they would change their stance. But the civilians on their side, those civilians they care very deeply about, and the death of any number of them immediately justifies any consequence to the enemy population. Another way to say the same thing is that some of those civilians are humans, and the others aren't. Am I misreading you or do you think this war between Israel and Iran is about the land in Gaza and the Westbank? Is it your belief that Iran would stop attacking Israel if the two state solution happened? If a comprehensive peace deal were reached between Israel and Palestine that established a real two-state solution, then Iran would lose 2 very valuable proxy forces, and a lot of geopolitical clout in the area. So obviously Iran will oppose any moves toward lasting peace. That said, it isn't very clear to me Iran would be willing or even able to disrupt the situation if *magically* a two-state solution was agreed upon. The reason I emphasized that it would need to appear magically is because we are a very very long way away from Israel and Palestine agreeing that the sky is blue, let alone a way to live together. And even if they start talking, there is going to be plenty of opportunities to disrupt peace negotiations. There will be plenty of radical Palestinians who hate the very idea of peaceful coexistence, and Iran will no doubt keep using them to ensure that never happens. The same way there are plenty of Israelis who hate the idea and will go to extremes to ensure that never happens. Iran is a disruptive force here, but it's not as if Iran is the one forcing Hamas and Hezbollah to fight: all Iran is doing is ensuring there is a good supply of weapons for the Palestinians to keep fighting with. The US is doing a similar thing for the other side... They'd lose one proxy at best if Hamas agrees to disarm or at least give up control of Gaza. Hezbollah will exist no matter what happens to the Palestinians. They're deeply embedded in the Shiite part of Lebanon, support Assad in various ways, and support militias in Iraq. As will their hatred of Israel. The 2006 war between them had nothing to do with the Palestinians. You also understate Iran's support. Iran doesnt just provide weapons but also training, funds, and advice via the irgc.
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United States41363 Posts
On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. It's true, there's literally no history of antisemitism anywhere before 1947.
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On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
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Gulf states have pledged neutrality...things aren't getting much better are they (i.e. they are only doing this because shit's hitting the fan so hard they want nothing to do with it)
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On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction.
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On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen?
Honestly I've rarely heard a worse take than this. I think you might want to consider taking this back. I'm offering to delete my response (as it contains your quote) if you decide to delete your comment.
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On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction.
His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question?
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On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question?
I don't think Israelis are in danger of being genocided, the concern is very weak and I don't believe there's a lot of need to talk about it. The concern, itself, is deflection from the things that Biff was talking about. Instead of addressing his post, Elroi talked about a very unlikely bad outcome from the last thing he said.
LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care.
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On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? I don't think Israelis are in danger of being genocided, the concern is very weak and I don't believe there's a lot of need to talk about it. The concern, itself, is deflection from the things that Biff was talking about. Instead of addressing his post, Elroi talked about a very unlikely bad outcome from the last thing he said. LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care.
Elroi's point is not deflection from what Biff was talking about. Biff said antisemitism is fueled by Israel's treatment of Palestinians and Elroi's point is that it's possible that the hatred of Jews is so ideologically inherent that a change in course by Israel is not going to make Palestinians suddenly stop hating Jews. Similarly some change in behavior by homosexuals in Gaza is not going to make Palestinians stop hating homosexuals because the hatred is ideologically driven and not because the gays are oppressing anyone.
Throwing out "I don't think you even care about homosexuals in Gaza" does nothing to address his argument. It's just ad hominem to distract from his point.
LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians.
See, the fact you feel compelled to state this tells me you don't understand his point and you think he is simply trying to call you out for not caring about LGBT in Gaza. Not everything is a dick measuring contest of virtue signalling of who cares the most about Palestinians, straight or gay. He's not trying to call you out on not "focusing" on LGBT rights in Gaza. His argument was what I reworded in the first paragraph of this post.
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On October 05 2024 07:24 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? I don't think Israelis are in danger of being genocided, the concern is very weak and I don't believe there's a lot of need to talk about it. The concern, itself, is deflection from the things that Biff was talking about. Instead of addressing his post, Elroi talked about a very unlikely bad outcome from the last thing he said. LGBT Palestinians being persecuted for being gay is bad, no shit. Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care. Elroi's point is not deflection from what Biff was talking about. Biff said antisemitism is fueled by Israel's treatment of Palestinians and Elroi's point is that it's possible that the hatred of Jews is so ideologically inherent that a change in course by Israel is not going to make Palestinians suddenly stop hating Jews. Similarly some change in behavior by homosexuals in Gaza is not going to make Palestinians stop hating homosexuals because the hatred is ideologically driven and not because the gays are oppressing anyone. Throwing out "I don't think you even care about homosexuals in Gaza" does nothing to address his argument. It's just ad hominem to distract from his point.
Biff wasn't here to talk about antisemitism, the point was already deflected. There is more than one post in this thread.
Nobody believes that antisemitism will "suddenly stop" if Israel changes course, you made that up, of course there will still be antisemitism. It doesn't follow from antisemitism existing that Israelis are in danger of being genocided, that's a massive jump in logic.
And yeah of course it was an ad hominem, I knew that already. But it wasn't to deflect, it's because pinkwashing is gross. A better example of something that was done to deflect is when Sadist pointed out to you that just because there's a rise in crimes doesn't mean it's Haitians doing it, it could be hate crimes on Haitians and you talked about some other population that is linked to gangs.
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On October 05 2024 07:40 Nebuchad wrote: And yeah of course it was an ad hominem, I knew that already. But it wasn't to deflect, it's because pinkwashing is gross. A better example of something that was done to deflect is when Sadist pointed out to you that just because there's a rise in crimes doesn't mean it's Haitians doing it, it could be hate crimes on Haitians and you talked about some other population that is linked to gangs.
That wasn't deflection. That's a conscious decision to move on to another example because the evidence Sadist required to move him off agnosticism doesn't exist so it's pointless to go back and forth on it. Kind of off topic.
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On October 05 2024 03:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote: If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. It's true, there's literally no history of antisemitism anywhere before 1947. That’s not a very good point.
Modern antisemitism - as the antisemitism born in the wake of the waves of ashkenaze immigrants in central europe in the mid XIXth century and that culminated with the Holocaust - is not really a thing anymore. The judeophobia of the previous centuries neither.
Contemporary antisemitism is absolutely centered around Israel and its treatment of palestinians. There are no party that has an antisemitic platform in the West, there is virtually no hostility from non muslim communities towards Jews.
I think it’s not hard to argue that if anything, muslims are the new jews. There is so much in common between the jewish immigrants of the 1860s and the Muslim immigrants in europe today. And the hatred is rooted in the same arguments, the same rhetoric and the same mechanisms.
But anyways. The idea that israel is protecting the Jews from a holocaust is just ridiculous. Where and by whom?
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