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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right?
Jews in, say, Germany, have fuck all to do with Israel bombing Hezbollah. It's not that hard to understand.
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On October 05 2024 22:08 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? Jews in, say, Germany, have fuck all to do with Israel bombing Hezbollah. It's not that hard to understand.
That is correct. Jewishness has also nothing to do with what Israel is doing in Israel, you didn't have to go to Germany. You're describing why they're mistaken, not why they're using it as an excuse.
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On October 05 2024 15:55 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2024 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Name one person in this thread who doesn't condemn Muslim terrorist attacks. I'll wait. Name one person in this thread who actually engaged meaningfully and in-depth with the civilian casualty rate, impossible data sets published by the Gazan MoH or the humanitarian aid-topic which clearly shows that enough food has entered Gaza. I'll wait (doing so since at least 30 pages). Show nested quote +On October 01 2024 13:05 Husyelt wrote:On October 01 2024 04:08 RvB wrote:On September 30 2024 14:45 Husyelt wrote:On September 30 2024 02:47 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 23:33 Husyelt wrote:On September 29 2024 14:58 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 11:56 Husyelt wrote:On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote:
Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now. Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza. "A Waco a day, the IDF way" Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda. https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says.Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin. https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5123377/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-fightingIn one day Israel killed 500 Lebanese people. All to kill 1 dude. Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher. Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza. For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person: Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.
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The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster.
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On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
www.npr.org What on earth are you talking about. The current death toll in Gaza is over 50,000. Hamas killed 800 civilians. Thats 50-1. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. at the end of the day lets say the death counts of civilians and terrorists is split between our numbers. Israel has no post war plan for Gaza. it had none for 2006, and it has none for 2024. the occupation will continue until Hamas lashes out, and Israel will turn the civilian population to rubble until morale improves. Reread your own initial post: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already You were clearly talking about a civilian to terrorist death ratio. Especially in the context of the 300-1 number since that was the estimated number of deaths in the Nasrallah strike. Now you're changing it to something else again and it's not even a proper comparison. There are around 41500 fatalities according to Gaza health ministry. That includes Hamas militants yet you only use Israeli civilians. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. You're selectively quoting. Leaving it out makes no difference to the point I was making. Your own source shows that the airstrikes are in multiple parts of Lebanon with significant casualties for Hezbollah. As I pointed out earlier Israel has eliminated most Hezbollahs senior leadership in a week. It's clearly part of their strategy: The IDF is conducting a decapitation campaign targeting senior Hezbollah leadership as part of its air campaign across Lebanon. This campaign could impact Hezbollah’s ability to effectively organize and direct its forces. The IDF reported that its September 24 airstrike which killed Hezbollah’s Rocket and Missile Unit Commander Ibrahim Muhammad Qabisi also killed Qabisi’s deputy Abbas Sharafeddine and a senior commander from Hezbollah’s missile division, Hussein Ezzeddine.[7] Ezzeddine was reportedly close to the former top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr, who Israel killed in late July.[8] The IDF has conducted several major airstrikes in recent days targeting senior Hezbollah commanders and their communication networks.[9] CTP-ISW noted that Israel detonating Hezbollah pagers and personal radios disrupted the group’s internal communications and may have prompted the group to begin using less secure methods of communication that Israel could then intercept and exploit.[10] www.understandingwar.orgYou're free to criticize Israel but at least stick to the facts. edit: ofc im free to criticize Israel, thats the point. we criticize our allies when they do wrong. I love France maybe more than any other ally, but what they did in Algiers is an abomination. Israel is doing that on steroids. If you think for a even a second that 41,000 Gazans (terrorist + civilians) killed is about right, I have some settlements to sell you in the West Bank. The real numbers are into the hundred thousand plus if Israel would allow actual journalists in. If Oct the 7th went in a different direction, lets say the IDF was somewhat aware of what was going on, and during the fighting and chaos, dozens of Hamas groups got confused and went into Israel proper with the hostages. Into homes, hospitals, schools, industrial areas etc. Do you think for a millisecond that they would have targeted those terrorists in a different manner than they have in Gaza? They would have sent in special military operations, isolated them, and forced fight or surrender or be killed. But hostages and Hamas go back to Gaza? lol bro we going to drop more bombs than the allies did on Dresden, cause fuck yeah we can. Hamas is even worse than Nazis, their civilian population deserves it. "Remember these are animals, less than humans. Hamas should not be dealt with with special ops, that may lead to more IDF soldier losses. no... no they need 7,000 2000 lb bombs on the entirety of Gaza. Does it matter that Hamas is .5% as powerful and dangerous as the Nazi empire? no. Please dont think about the scale of power here. hoo boy collective punishment sure looks so good on us. Are we 25 times as powerful as Hamas and Hezbollah combined? yes. but please consider how much they hate us. dont look at mathematical numbers and backed by the worlds superpower. Definitely dont do that. Otherwise we may look like we are the Occupiers illegally for 15+ years. Dont do that. You also probably never compared the civilian casualty rate to comparable conflict zones, right? Otherwise, such delusional statements should be impossible to make. Show nested quote +On October 04 2024 00:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 03 2024 23:53 Billyboy wrote:Guesses on Israel's respond to Iran's missile barrage? Poll: Israel's response to Iran's barageStrike on Iranian Oil refining (5) 50% Strike on military bases (2) 20% Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities (2) 20% Attack on everything, full war. (1) 10% Strike on Iranian air defense (0) 0% 10 total votes Your vote: Israel's response to Iran's barage (Vote): Strike on Iranian air defense
(Vote): Strike on military bases
(Vote): Strike on Iranian Oil refining
(Vote): Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities
(Vote): Attack on everything, full war.
Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll kill more civies than Iran did. So? What's the point of this senseless statement? Iran does not want peace in the region as it will lose valuable proxies. Of course it shits on the repercussions that its actions inflict on civilians (especially the ones that will be killed my Israel). Or what is your solution? That Israel simply takes attacks like 7th of October, hostage takings, firings of rockets for one year straight, etc.? Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care. Palestinians are not killed because they are Palestinians. They are killed as a byproduct of a war that started because Hamas escalated the Middle Eastern conflict on 7th of October in the most brutal and unnecessary fashion with Hezbollah joining the party on October 8th.
Your annoying, falsely portrayed narrative is so blatantly false and you choose to ignore the actual facts that counter your delusional perspective since I entered this thread.1. The civilian casualty rate speaks against deliberate killings of civilians as comparable war zones have much higher ones 2. The demography of Palestine versus the civilian casualty rate speak against deliberate killings of civilians 3. The humanitarian aid provided by Israel speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians 4. The constant providing of water and maintaining of Israel of pipes damaged by Hamas speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians This pathetic display of cognitive dissonance of you and the others that share this view has truly reached comical heights. You say you are not interested in discussing the humanitarian aid issue? Of course you don't, as it weakens your position. Contrary, you'd be the first to mention it at every possible occasion, if it would support your view. As it stands... Not one of you is able to address the concerns I raised over and over and over - simply ridiculous.
This is such a harmfu narrative. Palestinians were being killed every day. More and more of WB was being grabbed.
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On October 05 2024 22:19 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 15:55 PremoBeats wrote:On October 01 2024 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Name one person in this thread who doesn't condemn Muslim terrorist attacks. I'll wait. Name one person in this thread who actually engaged meaningfully and in-depth with the civilian casualty rate, impossible data sets published by the Gazan MoH or the humanitarian aid-topic which clearly shows that enough food has entered Gaza. I'll wait (doing so since at least 30 pages). On October 01 2024 13:05 Husyelt wrote:On October 01 2024 04:08 RvB wrote:On September 30 2024 14:45 Husyelt wrote:On September 30 2024 02:47 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 23:33 Husyelt wrote:On September 29 2024 14:58 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 11:56 Husyelt wrote:On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now.
Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza. "A Waco a day, the IDF way" Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda. https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says.Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin. https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5123377/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-fightingIn one day Israel killed 500 Lebanese people. All to kill 1 dude. Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher. Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza. For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person: Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.
....
The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster.
...
On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
www.npr.org What on earth are you talking about. The current death toll in Gaza is over 50,000. Hamas killed 800 civilians. Thats 50-1. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. at the end of the day lets say the death counts of civilians and terrorists is split between our numbers. Israel has no post war plan for Gaza. it had none for 2006, and it has none for 2024. the occupation will continue until Hamas lashes out, and Israel will turn the civilian population to rubble until morale improves. Reread your own initial post: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already You were clearly talking about a civilian to terrorist death ratio. Especially in the context of the 300-1 number since that was the estimated number of deaths in the Nasrallah strike. Now you're changing it to something else again and it's not even a proper comparison. There are around 41500 fatalities according to Gaza health ministry. That includes Hamas militants yet you only use Israeli civilians. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. You're selectively quoting. Leaving it out makes no difference to the point I was making. Your own source shows that the airstrikes are in multiple parts of Lebanon with significant casualties for Hezbollah. As I pointed out earlier Israel has eliminated most Hezbollahs senior leadership in a week. It's clearly part of their strategy: The IDF is conducting a decapitation campaign targeting senior Hezbollah leadership as part of its air campaign across Lebanon. This campaign could impact Hezbollah’s ability to effectively organize and direct its forces. The IDF reported that its September 24 airstrike which killed Hezbollah’s Rocket and Missile Unit Commander Ibrahim Muhammad Qabisi also killed Qabisi’s deputy Abbas Sharafeddine and a senior commander from Hezbollah’s missile division, Hussein Ezzeddine.[7] Ezzeddine was reportedly close to the former top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr, who Israel killed in late July.[8] The IDF has conducted several major airstrikes in recent days targeting senior Hezbollah commanders and their communication networks.[9] CTP-ISW noted that Israel detonating Hezbollah pagers and personal radios disrupted the group’s internal communications and may have prompted the group to begin using less secure methods of communication that Israel could then intercept and exploit.[10] www.understandingwar.orgYou're free to criticize Israel but at least stick to the facts. edit: ofc im free to criticize Israel, thats the point. we criticize our allies when they do wrong. I love France maybe more than any other ally, but what they did in Algiers is an abomination. Israel is doing that on steroids. If you think for a even a second that 41,000 Gazans (terrorist + civilians) killed is about right, I have some settlements to sell you in the West Bank. The real numbers are into the hundred thousand plus if Israel would allow actual journalists in. If Oct the 7th went in a different direction, lets say the IDF was somewhat aware of what was going on, and during the fighting and chaos, dozens of Hamas groups got confused and went into Israel proper with the hostages. Into homes, hospitals, schools, industrial areas etc. Do you think for a millisecond that they would have targeted those terrorists in a different manner than they have in Gaza? They would have sent in special military operations, isolated them, and forced fight or surrender or be killed. But hostages and Hamas go back to Gaza? lol bro we going to drop more bombs than the allies did on Dresden, cause fuck yeah we can. Hamas is even worse than Nazis, their civilian population deserves it. "Remember these are animals, less than humans. Hamas should not be dealt with with special ops, that may lead to more IDF soldier losses. no... no they need 7,000 2000 lb bombs on the entirety of Gaza. Does it matter that Hamas is .5% as powerful and dangerous as the Nazi empire? no. Please dont think about the scale of power here. hoo boy collective punishment sure looks so good on us. Are we 25 times as powerful as Hamas and Hezbollah combined? yes. but please consider how much they hate us. dont look at mathematical numbers and backed by the worlds superpower. Definitely dont do that. Otherwise we may look like we are the Occupiers illegally for 15+ years. Dont do that. You also probably never compared the civilian casualty rate to comparable conflict zones, right? Otherwise, such delusional statements should be impossible to make. On October 04 2024 00:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 03 2024 23:53 Billyboy wrote:Guesses on Israel's respond to Iran's missile barrage? Poll: Israel's response to Iran's barageStrike on Iranian Oil refining (5) 50% Strike on military bases (2) 20% Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities (2) 20% Attack on everything, full war. (1) 10% Strike on Iranian air defense (0) 0% 10 total votes Your vote: Israel's response to Iran's barage (Vote): Strike on Iranian air defense
(Vote): Strike on military bases
(Vote): Strike on Iranian Oil refining
(Vote): Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities
(Vote): Attack on everything, full war.
Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll kill more civies than Iran did. So? What's the point of this senseless statement? Iran does not want peace in the region as it will lose valuable proxies. Of course it shits on the repercussions that its actions inflict on civilians (especially the ones that will be killed my Israel). Or what is your solution? That Israel simply takes attacks like 7th of October, hostage takings, firings of rockets for one year straight, etc.? On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care. Palestinians are not killed because they are Palestinians. They are killed as a byproduct of a war that started because Hamas escalated the Middle Eastern conflict on 7th of October in the most brutal and unnecessary fashion with Hezbollah joining the party on October 8th.
Your annoying, falsely portrayed narrative is so blatantly false and you choose to ignore the actual facts that counter your delusional perspective since I entered this thread.1. The civilian casualty rate speaks against deliberate killings of civilians as comparable war zones have much higher ones 2. The demography of Palestine versus the civilian casualty rate speak against deliberate killings of civilians 3. The humanitarian aid provided by Israel speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians 4. The constant providing of water and maintaining of Israel of pipes damaged by Hamas speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians This pathetic display of cognitive dissonance of you and the others that share this view has truly reached comical heights. You say you are not interested in discussing the humanitarian aid issue? Of course you don't, as it weakens your position. Contrary, you'd be the first to mention it at every possible occasion, if it would support your view. As it stands... Not one of you is able to address the concerns I raised over and over and over - simply ridiculous. This is such a harmfu narrative. Palestinians were being killed every day. More and more of WB was being grabbed.
It is literally impossible to discuss with you guys in good faith.
I NEVER said that Palestinians were not killed. I said that they were not killed BECAUSE they are Palestinians. And that their deaths are rather byproducts of a war, that is an escalation of a conflict for which Hamas is responsible.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On October 05 2024 18:53 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 18:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
I tried to "Discuss the humanitarian aid issue" but unfortunately the person I was discussing it with is so utterly taken with Israeli propaganda they actually refused to believe the clearly documented fact that Israel blocked aid deliberately, despite Israeli government ministers discussing why, when and how they were doing it as it happened.
Sometimes discussing things is counter productive. The last time you addressed this, I replied with the paragraph below, to which you never followed up, so thanks for proving my point, I guess (at least the in-depth part). If by chance I missed your reply to this - sorry! I am usually only able to catch up on the weekends so sometimes I miss things. If so please quote your reply and I will come back - no worries. " After we started quite good, I have reservations, engaging with you, after our last exchange. But I will give it another try. Yes, I gave reasons why I think that much of the data that was provided by MoH (Hamas controlled) needs to be questioned. Do you have issues with these reasons? If so, what issues? I don't follow. I said that even when not taking into account the necessary corrections, Israel's casualty rate in comparison to comparable conflict zones is insanely commendable. But these goods were not "indefinitely delayed". Did you read about the numbers on how many tracks went into Gaza since the start of the war? Do you accept the 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom? The full warehouses Hamas said it has? If the goods were indefinitely delayed, how could these 650 trucks be at Kerem Shalom? How could the warehouses of Hamas burst with stolen humanitarian goods? From who did Hamas steal these goods? "
Which conflicts zones are that comparable though? It’s very asymmetric as conflicts go with a huge technological sophistication gap
There aren’t too many conflicts in recent memory which are quite that skewed
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On October 05 2024 22:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 18:53 PremoBeats wrote:On October 05 2024 18:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
I tried to "Discuss the humanitarian aid issue" but unfortunately the person I was discussing it with is so utterly taken with Israeli propaganda they actually refused to believe the clearly documented fact that Israel blocked aid deliberately, despite Israeli government ministers discussing why, when and how they were doing it as it happened.
Sometimes discussing things is counter productive. The last time you addressed this, I replied with the paragraph below, to which you never followed up, so thanks for proving my point, I guess (at least the in-depth part). If by chance I missed your reply to this - sorry! I am usually only able to catch up on the weekends so sometimes I miss things. If so please quote your reply and I will come back - no worries. " After we started quite good, I have reservations, engaging with you, after our last exchange. But I will give it another try. Yes, I gave reasons why I think that much of the data that was provided by MoH (Hamas controlled) needs to be questioned. Do you have issues with these reasons? If so, what issues? I don't follow. I said that even when not taking into account the necessary corrections, Israel's casualty rate in comparison to comparable conflict zones is insanely commendable. But these goods were not "indefinitely delayed". Did you read about the numbers on how many tracks went into Gaza since the start of the war? Do you accept the 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom? The full warehouses Hamas said it has? If the goods were indefinitely delayed, how could these 650 trucks be at Kerem Shalom? How could the warehouses of Hamas burst with stolen humanitarian goods? From who did Hamas steal these goods? " Which conflicts zones are that comparable though? It’s very asymmetric as conflicts go with a huge technological sophistication gap There aren’t too many conflicts in recent memory which are quite that skewed
Comparable in the sense of how hard it is to keep civilian casualties low, as Gaza is an extremely densely populated area.
But technically there simply is no good comparison as no attacking force had to deal with human shield tactics on a scale like Hamas is deploying them.
That is why I said before, that the civilian casualty rate by the IDF is so astonishing, when you compare them to similar densely populated fighting areas:
Aleppo 1:4
Grozny 1:10
Beirut 1:3 to 1:5
Sarajevo 1:3 to 1:4
Gaza 12k to 29k = 1:2.4
The IDF is outperforming all these conflict zones by a large margin, even though the cowards of Hamas hide under/in civilian and religious infrastructures such as Mosques, hospitals, schools and densely populated neighborhoods. Meaning if that would not happen, the IDF would probably be more around 1:1.5.
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On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right?
If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong.
There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews.
Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate.
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On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate.
Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine.
If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad?
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"Palestinians are not being killed by Israel because they're Palestinians!"
Ah, yes. Hypothetically, if the Palestinians were actually Jews, they'd still be killed by Israel. Clear as day.
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On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad?
Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here.
Edit: You can hate the IDF, Netanyahu or anything specific and not be antisemtic. But we are talking about antisemtism which is wrong and horrible no matter what the IDF does at Netanyahu's orders. Defending antisemtism is always a bad look.
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On October 05 2024 23:51 Magic Powers wrote:
"Palestinians are not being killed by Israel because they're Palestinians!"
Ah, yes. Hypothetically, if the Palestinians were actually Jews, they'd still be killed by Israel. Clear as day.
His point is they are dying because they are at war not because of their cultural identity. You can argue that point if you want, but it is not a hard point to understand.
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On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here.
I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality?
Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever.
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On October 05 2024 23:51 Magic Powers wrote:
"Palestinians are not being killed by Israel because they're Palestinians!"
Ah, yes. Hypothetically, if the Palestinians were actually Jews, they'd still be killed by Israel. Clear as day.
As most of your guys' replies are equally challenged I am simply going to copy paste my last reply:
"It is literally impossible to discuss with you guys in good faith.
I NEVER said that Palestinians were not killed. I said that they were not killed BECAUSE they are Palestinians. And that their deaths are rather byproducts of a war, that is an escalation of a conflict for which Hamas is responsible. "
If you still don't understand, Billy here, deciphered it for you...
On October 06 2024 00:03 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 23:51 Magic Powers wrote:
"Palestinians are not being killed by Israel because they're Palestinians!"
Ah, yes. Hypothetically, if the Palestinians were actually Jews, they'd still be killed by Israel. Clear as day. His point is they are dying because they are at war not because of their cultural identity. You can argue that point if you want, but it is not a hard point to understand.
For many here it obviously is hard to understand, looking at the replies I got, lol
Although I honestly tilt more towards them deliberately misunderstanding/straw maning.
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On October 05 2024 22:35 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2024 22:19 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 05 2024 15:55 PremoBeats wrote:On October 01 2024 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Name one person in this thread who doesn't condemn Muslim terrorist attacks. I'll wait. Name one person in this thread who actually engaged meaningfully and in-depth with the civilian casualty rate, impossible data sets published by the Gazan MoH or the humanitarian aid-topic which clearly shows that enough food has entered Gaza. I'll wait (doing so since at least 30 pages). On October 01 2024 13:05 Husyelt wrote:On October 01 2024 04:08 RvB wrote:On September 30 2024 14:45 Husyelt wrote:On September 30 2024 02:47 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 23:33 Husyelt wrote:On September 29 2024 14:58 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 11:56 Husyelt wrote:
[quote]
Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza.
"A Waco a day, the IDF way"
Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda. https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says.Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin. https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5123377/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-fightingIn one day Israel killed 500 Lebanese people. All to kill 1 dude. Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher. Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza. For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person: Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.
....
The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster.
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On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
www.npr.org What on earth are you talking about. The current death toll in Gaza is over 50,000. Hamas killed 800 civilians. Thats 50-1. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. at the end of the day lets say the death counts of civilians and terrorists is split between our numbers. Israel has no post war plan for Gaza. it had none for 2006, and it has none for 2024. the occupation will continue until Hamas lashes out, and Israel will turn the civilian population to rubble until morale improves. Reread your own initial post: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already You were clearly talking about a civilian to terrorist death ratio. Especially in the context of the 300-1 number since that was the estimated number of deaths in the Nasrallah strike. Now you're changing it to something else again and it's not even a proper comparison. There are around 41500 fatalities according to Gaza health ministry. That includes Hamas militants yet you only use Israeli civilians. The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. You're selectively quoting. Leaving it out makes no difference to the point I was making. Your own source shows that the airstrikes are in multiple parts of Lebanon with significant casualties for Hezbollah. As I pointed out earlier Israel has eliminated most Hezbollahs senior leadership in a week. It's clearly part of their strategy: The IDF is conducting a decapitation campaign targeting senior Hezbollah leadership as part of its air campaign across Lebanon. This campaign could impact Hezbollah’s ability to effectively organize and direct its forces. The IDF reported that its September 24 airstrike which killed Hezbollah’s Rocket and Missile Unit Commander Ibrahim Muhammad Qabisi also killed Qabisi’s deputy Abbas Sharafeddine and a senior commander from Hezbollah’s missile division, Hussein Ezzeddine.[7] Ezzeddine was reportedly close to the former top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr, who Israel killed in late July.[8] The IDF has conducted several major airstrikes in recent days targeting senior Hezbollah commanders and their communication networks.[9] CTP-ISW noted that Israel detonating Hezbollah pagers and personal radios disrupted the group’s internal communications and may have prompted the group to begin using less secure methods of communication that Israel could then intercept and exploit.[10] www.understandingwar.orgYou're free to criticize Israel but at least stick to the facts. edit: ofc im free to criticize Israel, thats the point. we criticize our allies when they do wrong. I love France maybe more than any other ally, but what they did in Algiers is an abomination. Israel is doing that on steroids. If you think for a even a second that 41,000 Gazans (terrorist + civilians) killed is about right, I have some settlements to sell you in the West Bank. The real numbers are into the hundred thousand plus if Israel would allow actual journalists in. If Oct the 7th went in a different direction, lets say the IDF was somewhat aware of what was going on, and during the fighting and chaos, dozens of Hamas groups got confused and went into Israel proper with the hostages. Into homes, hospitals, schools, industrial areas etc. Do you think for a millisecond that they would have targeted those terrorists in a different manner than they have in Gaza? They would have sent in special military operations, isolated them, and forced fight or surrender or be killed. But hostages and Hamas go back to Gaza? lol bro we going to drop more bombs than the allies did on Dresden, cause fuck yeah we can. Hamas is even worse than Nazis, their civilian population deserves it. "Remember these are animals, less than humans. Hamas should not be dealt with with special ops, that may lead to more IDF soldier losses. no... no they need 7,000 2000 lb bombs on the entirety of Gaza. Does it matter that Hamas is .5% as powerful and dangerous as the Nazi empire? no. Please dont think about the scale of power here. hoo boy collective punishment sure looks so good on us. Are we 25 times as powerful as Hamas and Hezbollah combined? yes. but please consider how much they hate us. dont look at mathematical numbers and backed by the worlds superpower. Definitely dont do that. Otherwise we may look like we are the Occupiers illegally for 15+ years. Dont do that. You also probably never compared the civilian casualty rate to comparable conflict zones, right? Otherwise, such delusional statements should be impossible to make. On October 04 2024 00:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 03 2024 23:53 Billyboy wrote:Guesses on Israel's respond to Iran's missile barrage? Poll: Israel's response to Iran's barageStrike on Iranian Oil refining (5) 50% Strike on military bases (2) 20% Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities (2) 20% Attack on everything, full war. (1) 10% Strike on Iranian air defense (0) 0% 10 total votes Your vote: Israel's response to Iran's barage (Vote): Strike on Iranian air defense
(Vote): Strike on military bases
(Vote): Strike on Iranian Oil refining
(Vote): Strike on Iranian nuclear facilities
(Vote): Attack on everything, full war.
Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll kill more civies than Iran did. So? What's the point of this senseless statement? Iran does not want peace in the region as it will lose valuable proxies. Of course it shits on the repercussions that its actions inflict on civilians (especially the ones that will be killed my Israel). Or what is your solution? That Israel simply takes attacks like 7th of October, hostage takings, firings of rockets for one year straight, etc.? On October 05 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 06:25 BlackJack wrote:On October 05 2024 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 05:23 Elroi wrote:On October 05 2024 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2024 06:30 Elroi wrote:
If they get the South Africa treatment you'll soon see a mass murder of Jews on the scale of the holocaust. Yes, just like there were a holocaust of white people when South Africa was forced to change. The biggest threats to jews all around the world is Israel politics. The oppression of palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere. Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think the same applies to homosexuals? If they just treated the Palestinians a little better they wouldn't have to be executed for being gay in Gaza or Yemen? It's a little difficult to believe that you care about gay Palestinians being killed for being gay when those same gay Palestinians are currently being killed for being Palestinians and that's not causing much of a reaction. His post doesn’t even imply that he cares about gay Palestinians. This is a really poor attempt at deflection. Do you want to try again at answering his question? Right now it's not the main focus because of what's currently happening to Palestinians for being Palestinians. If we get a good future (which is unlikely) and suddenly Palestinians are no longer being killed for being Palestinians, then we can go back to the usual framework of politics where people on my side stand for the rights of LGBT people of palestinian descent and people on your side don't care. Palestinians are not killed because they are Palestinians. They are killed as a byproduct of a war that started because Hamas escalated the Middle Eastern conflict on 7th of October in the most brutal and unnecessary fashion with Hezbollah joining the party on October 8th.
Your annoying, falsely portrayed narrative is so blatantly false and you choose to ignore the actual facts that counter your delusional perspective since I entered this thread.1. The civilian casualty rate speaks against deliberate killings of civilians as comparable war zones have much higher ones 2. The demography of Palestine versus the civilian casualty rate speak against deliberate killings of civilians 3. The humanitarian aid provided by Israel speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians 4. The constant providing of water and maintaining of Israel of pipes damaged by Hamas speaks against Palestinians being killed for being Palestinians This pathetic display of cognitive dissonance of you and the others that share this view has truly reached comical heights. You say you are not interested in discussing the humanitarian aid issue? Of course you don't, as it weakens your position. Contrary, you'd be the first to mention it at every possible occasion, if it would support your view. As it stands... Not one of you is able to address the concerns I raised over and over and over - simply ridiculous. This is such a harmfu narrative. Palestinians were being killed every day. More and more of WB was being grabbed. It is literally impossible to discuss with you guys in good faith. I NEVER said that Palestinians were not killed. I said that they were not killed BECAUSE they are Palestinians. And that their deaths are rather byproducts of a war, that is an escalation of a conflict for which Hamas is responsible.
I'm not saying that you did, but to frame this around Oct 7th belies years of problems in the region. I don't need to tell you this, I know you know this.
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United States43483 Posts
The idea that Israel wants to kill Palestinians because of their identity as Palestinians is absurd, it has a very large Israeli Palestinian minority which it shields from harm.
A Hamas ruled Gaza that attacked Israel would require some kind of response regardless of whether the people living there were ethnically Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, whatever.
There are good arguments that can be made about the encroaching settlements the need to redress historical grievances but the idea that Israel secretly wants to exterminate Palestinians is simply contrary to any observable reality. It's frustrating because I don't want to defend Israel but some people in this topic just go off the deep end with hysterical proclamations.
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On October 06 2024 01:01 KwarK wrote:
The idea that Israel wants to kill Palestinians because of their identity as Palestinians is absurd, it has a very large Israeli Palestinian minority which it shields from harm.
A Hamas ruled Gaza that attacked Israel would require some kind of response regardless of whether the people living there were ethnically Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, whatever.
There are good arguments that can be made about the encroaching settlements the need to redress historical grievances but the idea that Israel secretly wants to exterminate Palestinians is simply contrary to any observable reality. It's frustrating because I don't want to defend Israel but some people in this topic just go off the deep end with hysterical proclamations.
Why don't you want to defend Israel, can you speak about that a little bit? I miss the good Kwark.
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On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever.
Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either.
This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse.
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On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse.
So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, none of them think they have horrible thoughts. When people think their ideology is horrible, what they do is they change their ideology.
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On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology.
I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites).
It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair.
Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace.
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On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace.
But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things.
Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement.
You said no, that's just an excuse.
I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now".
You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct.
And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing.
If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses.
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