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Surely, if Palestinians were actually Jews, Israel would kill tens of thousands of Jewish people after a Jewish terrorist attack. Clear as day.
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United States44190 Posts
On October 06 2024 01:05 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:01 KwarK wrote:
The idea that Israel wants to kill Palestinians because of their identity as Palestinians is absurd, it has a very large Israeli Palestinian minority which it shields from harm.
A Hamas ruled Gaza that attacked Israel would require some kind of response regardless of whether the people living there were ethnically Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, whatever.
There are good arguments that can be made about the encroaching settlements the need to redress historical grievances but the idea that Israel secretly wants to exterminate Palestinians is simply contrary to any observable reality. It's frustrating because I don't want to defend Israel but some people in this topic just go off the deep end with hysterical proclamations. Why don't you want to defend Israel, can you speak about that a little bit? I miss the good Kwark.
Because it shouldn't exist. The creation of it was a mistake and a crime against the Palestinians. But it does now exist and as a nuclear power it can't be destroyed and we must deal with the world as it is.
Given the existence of Israel and the rights of the people now living there any peaceful future must be built on coexistence and compromise and unfortunately that got completely fucked up for a generation on October 7. I think Israel should be held accountable for making efforts to coexist and compromise, but not with Hamas. I think Israel should have done more historically, but we are where we are.
If we take the 1,200 dead on October 7 and make it proportionate to a similar attack on the US then we're looking at approximately 34,200 deaths, 10 9/11s. Hamas had no chance of conquering Israel, that was never their intent. They intentionally destroyed any possibility of coexistence with an attack that they knew Israel could not tolerate. I'd say it was a stupid thing to do but they got exactly what they wanted out of it, a shitload of dead Palestinians. It's all so fucked up.
+ Show Spoiler [math] +(1,200 dead/10,000,000 Israel population) * 285,000,000 (2001 US population)
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On October 06 2024 01:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:05 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:01 KwarK wrote:
The idea that Israel wants to kill Palestinians because of their identity as Palestinians is absurd, it has a very large Israeli Palestinian minority which it shields from harm.
A Hamas ruled Gaza that attacked Israel would require some kind of response regardless of whether the people living there were ethnically Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, whatever.
There are good arguments that can be made about the encroaching settlements the need to redress historical grievances but the idea that Israel secretly wants to exterminate Palestinians is simply contrary to any observable reality. It's frustrating because I don't want to defend Israel but some people in this topic just go off the deep end with hysterical proclamations. Why don't you want to defend Israel, can you speak about that a little bit? I miss the good Kwark. Because it shouldn't exist. The creation of it was a mistake and a crime against the Palestinians. But it does now exist and as a nuclear power it can't be destroyed and we must deal with the world as it is. Given the existence of Israel and the rights of the people now living there any peaceful future must be built on coexistence and compromise and unfortunately that got completely fucked up for a generation on October 7. I think Israel should be held accountable for making efforts to coexist and compromise, but not with Hamas. I think Israel should have done more historically, but we are where we are. If we take the 1,200 dead on October 7 and make it proportionate to a similar attack on the US then we're looking at approximately 34,200 deaths, 10 9/11s. Hamas had no chance of conquering Israel, that was never their intent. They intentionally destroyed any possibility of coexistence with an attack that they knew Israel could not tolerate. I'd say it was a stupid thing to do but they got exactly what they wanted out of it, a shitload of dead Palestinians. It's all so fucked up. + Show Spoiler [math] +(1,200 dead/10,000,000 Israel population) * 285,000,000 (2001 US population)
Thank you
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On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 11:33 Billyboy wrote:
He just mixed up cause of with current popular excuse for. Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism. I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses.
That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust.
These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine.
It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true.
Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist.
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On October 06 2024 01:40 Magic Powers wrote:
Surely, if Palestinians were actually Jews, Israel would kill tens of thousands of Jewish people after a Jewish terrorist attack. Clear as day.
I was using another sect of Jews as hyperbole to make a point. Here is a simpler thought experiment. If Palestine was full of ethnic Russians and Oct 7th happened do you not think Israel would have responded in the exact same way?
To change the subject because its tiring for having to defend my morals just because I'm not hating on Israel hard enough for people here's liking. It is pretty interesting how Ukrainian war bloggers are talking about the Israel attacks and how happy they are that Israel is taking out Russian and Iranian assets in the middle east. The ones I have watched think of these two as connected.
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On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism.
I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist.
Okay, I do not think I was being "wildly charitable" to Biff, that's silly. It's pretty clear what he meant.
Why do you think the last thing will blow my mind? I said as much in my argument. Doesn't it blow your mind instead, as the person who said that racists know they have horrible thoughts and are looking for excuses for having them?
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Surely, if Israeli-born Jews were to commit a terrorist attack in the US, US-born Jews would cheer on the US for killing tens of thousands of Israeli-born Jews.
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On October 06 2024 02:13 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong.
There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews.
Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. Okay, I do not think I was being "wildly charitable" to Biff, that's silly. It's pretty clear what he meant. Why do you think the last thing will blow my mind? I said as much in my argument. Doesn't it blow your mind instead, as the person who said that racists know they have horrible thoughts and are looking for excuses for having them?
Most of what I was explaining happens subconsciously, and it not controversial. Biff said what he said, and then he further explained it. That you choose it to mean something else is strange in general. But not strange for you as you do it consistently. But I do notice you don't do it for Kwark or other mods. So you have the sense to know what you are doing is wrong.
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On October 06 2024 02:35 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 02:13 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine.
If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. Okay, I do not think I was being "wildly charitable" to Biff, that's silly. It's pretty clear what he meant. Why do you think the last thing will blow my mind? I said as much in my argument. Doesn't it blow your mind instead, as the person who said that racists know they have horrible thoughts and are looking for excuses for having them? Most of what I was explaining happens subconsciously, and it not controversial. Biff said what he said, and then he further explained it. That you choose it to mean something else is strange in general. But not strange for you as you do it consistently. But I do notice you don't do it for Kwark or other mods. So you have the sense to know what you are doing is wrong.
Okay, I don't really care that you think that. Are we done for this time or do you have more to say?
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On October 06 2024 02:27 Magic Powers wrote:
Surely, if Israeli-born Jews were to commit a terrorist attack in the US, US-born Jews would cheer on the US for killing tens of thousands of Israeli-born Jews.
I have no idea how that would go down. But I mean maybe? Like if Israeli commandos snuck into the US and went around raping and murdering over 200k Americans and kidnapped another 20k I'm leaning towards a lot of American Jews would support an attack on Israel to try to rid Israel of whatever leadership thought that was a good idea.
You don't think they would?
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On October 06 2024 02:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 02:35 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:13 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here.
I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. Okay, I do not think I was being "wildly charitable" to Biff, that's silly. It's pretty clear what he meant. Why do you think the last thing will blow my mind? I said as much in my argument. Doesn't it blow your mind instead, as the person who said that racists know they have horrible thoughts and are looking for excuses for having them? Most of what I was explaining happens subconsciously, and it not controversial. Biff said what he said, and then he further explained it. That you choose it to mean something else is strange in general. But not strange for you as you do it consistently. But I do notice you don't do it for Kwark or other mods. So you have the sense to know what you are doing is wrong. Okay, I don't really care that you think that. Are we done for this time or do you have more to say?
I have no idea what the point of this post is? Do you think you are like the king od this thread or something? You asked me questions I answered them and now you are mad?
My wish is that some mod would come on to this thread as a new user and take a non Israel is the devil position and see what it is like. Because no way you could behave like this on a "whos the Goat Serral or Maru" thread.
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On October 06 2024 02:41 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 02:36 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 02:35 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:13 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality?
Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. Okay, I do not think I was being "wildly charitable" to Biff, that's silly. It's pretty clear what he meant. Why do you think the last thing will blow my mind? I said as much in my argument. Doesn't it blow your mind instead, as the person who said that racists know they have horrible thoughts and are looking for excuses for having them? Most of what I was explaining happens subconsciously, and it not controversial. Biff said what he said, and then he further explained it. That you choose it to mean something else is strange in general. But not strange for you as you do it consistently. But I do notice you don't do it for Kwark or other mods. So you have the sense to know what you are doing is wrong. Okay, I don't really care that you think that. Are we done for this time or do you have more to say? I have no idea what the point of this post is? Do you think you are like the king od this thread or something? You asked me questions I answered them and now you are mad? My wish is that some mod would come on to this thread as a new user and take a non Israel is the devil position and see what it is like. Because no way you could behave like this on a "whos the Goat Serral or Maru" thread.
There's a feedback thread if you want to complain to the mods about me.
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On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 19:35 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Just imagine writing this, like the people in Lebanon are sitting around and suddenly one day: fantastic, my family finally died, now I have a good excuse for my antisemitism.
I wanted to let Biff handle this one but since there's three people in a row, you guys understand how fuel works right? If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong. There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews. Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist.
You are misrepresenting a bit what I say.
I am saying that in countries with large jewish poulation, say, the US, France and so on, there is no systematic antisemitism whatsoever from the institutions, virtually no antisemitism in politics, and very little antisemitism among the native population.
What we call modern antisemitism, that led to the Holocaust is really not prevalent anymore. You don’t have political parties running an anti-jewish platform anymore. You don’t see systematic, prevalent violence against jews the way you would have in the past. That role of scapegoat is directed against muslims. If anyone talked about jews the way right wing politicians talk about muslims everywhere in the West, they would be crucified.
On that front, jews are safe in ways they really were not in 1880, or in 1920.
Now. The overwhelming majority of cases - very real - where jews are facing hostility and even violence in the West is due to the muslim population. That antisemitism is linked to Israel, its wars and its policies. It’s evil, it’s dangerous, it’s to be fought. But it’s not just out of the blue racism just because.
And unsurprisingly, antisemtic acts explode whenever Israel gets into another one of their wars.
So. That drives my point that no, if Israel stopped oppressing palestinians, there wouldn’t be another holocaust because jews would not be defended, which is the point i was answering to.
For context and to be totally clear, I am a descendant of ashkenaze immigrants.
And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere.
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On October 06 2024 02:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 02:41 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:36 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 02:35 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:13 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either.
This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse.
So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. Okay, I do not think I was being "wildly charitable" to Biff, that's silly. It's pretty clear what he meant. Why do you think the last thing will blow my mind? I said as much in my argument. Doesn't it blow your mind instead, as the person who said that racists know they have horrible thoughts and are looking for excuses for having them? Most of what I was explaining happens subconsciously, and it not controversial. Biff said what he said, and then he further explained it. That you choose it to mean something else is strange in general. But not strange for you as you do it consistently. But I do notice you don't do it for Kwark or other mods. So you have the sense to know what you are doing is wrong. Okay, I don't really care that you think that. Are we done for this time or do you have more to say? I have no idea what the point of this post is? Do you think you are like the king od this thread or something? You asked me questions I answered them and now you are mad? My wish is that some mod would come on to this thread as a new user and take a non Israel is the devil position and see what it is like. Because no way you could behave like this on a "whos the Goat Serral or Maru" thread. There's a feedback thread if you want to complain to the mods about me.
I'd rather not, I'd rather you just be a reasonable person. But I'm not holding my breath either.
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United States44190 Posts
France both does not have a large Jewish population (there was a thing that happened to French Jews a few decades ago that you might be unfamiliar with) and does have a lot of antisemitism, albeit mostly among the significant Arab minority in France.
Biff, you keep saying things that are simply not true on the face of it. I don’t know why you do it and I don’t know who you’re trying to convince here that might not know better. It’s weird though. France is 0.6% Jewish vs about 10% Arab. For context Canada is about 1.4% Jewish, UK about 0.5%.
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United States44190 Posts
On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere.
You’re placing the blame for antisemitic attacks against Jews who have absolutely nothing to do with Palestine on people other than the antisemites attacking them. Instead of vilifying the attackers you’re excusing them and saying that Jews are to blame for antisemitic violence.
Might as well place the blame on Jews for being Christ killers, it makes just as much sense. There is exactly one group causing antisemitic violence and it’s antisemites. Not Jews.
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On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2024 23:43 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
If some claimed that islamophobia was because Arabs keep blowing themselves up, you would know that was wrong. If someone said that if the blacks just stopped being criminals they would stop hating them, you would know that was wrong.
There is no doubt that bad acts by groups of people lead to ism's of all kind but you should be able to understand that is not the root cause. You should also be aware that there are plenty of anti war Jews across the world and in Israel. Heck there are even Israeli's that are not Jews.
Do better, or get off your soap box because you really are not that different from the people you hate. Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine. If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. You are misrepresenting a bit what I say. I am saying that in countries with large jewish poulation, say, the US, France and so on, there is no systematic antisemitism whatsoever from the institutions, virtually no antisemitism in politics, and very little antisemitism among the native population. What we call modern antisemitism, that led to the Holocaust is really not prevalent anymore. You don’t have political parties running an anti-jewish platform anymore. You don’t see systematic, prevalent violence against jews the way you would have in the past. That role of scapegoat is directed against muslims. If anyone talked about jews the way right wing politicians talk about muslims everywhere in the West, they would be crucified. On that front, jews are safe in ways they really were not in 1880, or in 1920. Now. The overwhelming majority of cases - very real - where jews are facing hostility and even violence in the West is due to the muslim population. That antisemitism is linked to Israel, its wars and its policies. It’s evil, it’s dangerous, it’s to be fought. But it’s not just out of the blue racism just because. And unsurprisingly, antisemtic acts explode whenever Israel gets into another one of their wars. So. That drives my point that no, if Israel stopped oppressing palestinians, there wouldn’t be another holocaust because jews would not be defended, which is the point i was answering to. For context and to be totally clear, I am a descendant of ashkenaze immigrants. And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere.
I appreciate you taking the time to get into more detail. There are some things you wrote that I disagree with much that I agree with.
I Mainly disagree that antisemitism is gone, it never went away. The Jewish people are very vigilant about calling it out because of what happened so it is less up front but it is still very much alive and kicking. Most of the time just instead of hearing about the Jews you hear about the "globalists" or even the "capitalists". It is not a coincidence that the big boogie man in the US (maybe everywhere) to the right is was born to a Jewish family, George Soros. It is also not surprising that Trump claimed if he loses it will be because of the Jews. The group that has the most hate crimes reported in North America is the Jews (that doesn't mean they experience the most because they are also more likely to report it than other groups but it does indicate that it is still very prevalent).
I do agree with you that antisemitism rises when Israel gets in wars, the same way Islamaphobia does after a big terrorist attack. It also gives more popularity to the groups that vow to destroy "the enemy". It is not surprising that both Netanyahu and Hamas have gained popularity since Oct 7th.
I also agree that there would not be a Holocaust, at least in the immediate future if Israel didn't respond at all. Because Israel has the superior military for now, and its allies are much more powerful than Iran's. And I agree that this war, and its coverage are creating a whole new generation of antisemites and Islamaphobes. But it is also true that there is likely a lot more Russians who hate Ukrainians than before for killing so many of their sons, they should logically be mad at Putin, but that is just not how it works especially given how skilled everyone is with propaganda and spin.
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On October 06 2024 04:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere. You’re placing the blame for antisemitic attacks against Jews who have absolutely nothing to do with Palestine on people other than the antisemites attacking them. Instead of vilifying the attackers you’re excusing them and saying that Jews are to blame for antisemitic violence. Might as well place the blame on Jews for being Christ killers, it makes just as much sense. There is exactly one group causing antisemitic violence and it’s antisemites. Not Jews.
No no Kwark, that is really not what I am saying. People that commit antisemitic acts are unequivocally responsible for them, and there is no excuses or moral justifications for any of them. So let that be clear.
What I am saying is that contemporary antisemitism is fueled by Israel’s imperialist policies. It doesn’t make it right, but that’s way generates it. And also, it’s been Israel’s systematic discourse to say that any criticism of the country is an attack against all jews, and that anyone who say anything negative about them is antisemitic. That cynic sophism has fueled the confusion between Israel, israeli and jews.
Generally speaking, the strategy of Israel is to frame the conflict as aproblem of antisemitism. It’s a conflict about land, water, rights, occupation, imperialism, daily humiliations, refugees and so on. Pretending palestinians are blowing buses because they are racists is a joke, and that’s what Israel has been claiming for decades.
The conflict fuels racism, it’s not due to racism. And you better believe that the racism against arabs is just as prevalent on the israeli side as the racism against jews on the arab side. I have heard some pretty unhinged things when i was over there.
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On October 06 2024 06:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 04:16 KwarK wrote:On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere. You’re placing the blame for antisemitic attacks against Jews who have absolutely nothing to do with Palestine on people other than the antisemites attacking them. Instead of vilifying the attackers you’re excusing them and saying that Jews are to blame for antisemitic violence. Might as well place the blame on Jews for being Christ killers, it makes just as much sense. There is exactly one group causing antisemitic violence and it’s antisemites. Not Jews. No no Kwark, that is really not what I am saying. People that commit antisemitic acts are unequivocally responsible for them, and there is no excuses or moral justifications for any of them. So let that be clear. What I am saying is that contemporary antisemitism is fueled by Israel’s imperialist policies. It doesn’t make it right, but that’s way generates it. And also, it’s been Israel’s systematic discourse to say that any criticism of the country is an attack against all jews, and that anyone who say anything negative about them is antisemitic. That cynic sophism has fueled the confusion between Israel, israeli and jews. Generally speaking, the strategy of Israel is to frame the conflict as aproblem of antisemitism. It’s a conflict about land, water, rights, occupation, imperialism, daily humiliations, refugees and so on. Pretending palestinians are blowing buses because they are racists is a joke, and that’s what Israel has been claiming for decades. The conflict fuels racism, it’s not due to racism. And you better believe that the racism against arabs is just as prevalent on the israeli side as the racism against jews on the arab side. I have heard some pretty unhinged things when i was over there.
Two things can be true at the same time. This conflict fuels racism, but it is also driven by racism. Racism is certainly not THE main motive, but it is one of the key drivers. The snarky one-liners I posted are meant to highlight that fact. Israel wouldn't commit these atrocities against another group of Jewish people, so this conflict is in part driven by racism. One may certainly argue that it's a form of racism that's cloaked in a thick layer of religious supremacy, this would make sense.
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On October 06 2024 04:19 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 00:23 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 00:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 05 2024 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Unresponsive. You weren't arguing that it was wrong, you were arguing that it wasn't genuine, that it's an excuse. It is wrong, obviously, but it's not an excuse, it's just how things always go in situations like these. BJ and Elroi aren't quoting immigrant crime statistics because they think it's a good excuse to shield their racism, they legitimately think they have a good point that we can't see because of political correctness. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you, it's obvious that they are genuine.
If you can get Europeans and Americans, who overall live in places where things are mostly fine, to develop hatred of other groups by making them afraid about crime, how can you possibly not believe that the same thing would happen in places where things are actually bad? Because the crime stats are not the reason, they are the excuse. The same as here. I mean, that's so obviously not true I'm a little taken aback, I don't really know how to respond. Why do you think the far right makes a huge outcry every time a non-white person kills someone, if not because they think it's going to lead more people to associate crime to race and/or nationality? Conservative ideologies in general are reactionary, and the reason why we use this word is because they're happening in reaction. Things used to be good, and then events happened that made things bad, now we need a reaction. Nobody is like "Okay, I'm a huge racist, so what I'm going to do is pretend to react to the events that happen, that'll be a good excuse for my racism." This is not how humans think, ever. Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either. This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse. So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. You are misrepresenting a bit what I say. I am saying that in countries with large jewish poulation, say, the US, France and so on, there is no systematic antisemitism whatsoever from the institutions, virtually no antisemitism in politics, and very little antisemitism among the native population. What we call modern antisemitism, that led to the Holocaust is really not prevalent anymore. You don’t have political parties running an anti-jewish platform anymore. You don’t see systematic, prevalent violence against jews the way you would have in the past. That role of scapegoat is directed against muslims. If anyone talked about jews the way right wing politicians talk about muslims everywhere in the West, they would be crucified. On that front, jews are safe in ways they really were not in 1880, or in 1920. Now. The overwhelming majority of cases - very real - where jews are facing hostility and even violence in the West is due to the muslim population. That antisemitism is linked to Israel, its wars and its policies. It’s evil, it’s dangerous, it’s to be fought. But it’s not just out of the blue racism just because. And unsurprisingly, antisemtic acts explode whenever Israel gets into another one of their wars. So. That drives my point that no, if Israel stopped oppressing palestinians, there wouldn’t be another holocaust because jews would not be defended, which is the point i was answering to. For context and to be totally clear, I am a descendant of ashkenaze immigrants. And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere. I appreciate you taking the time to get into more detail. There are some things you wrote that I disagree with much that I agree with. I Mainly disagree that antisemitism is gone, it never went away. The Jewish people are very vigilant about calling it out because of what happened so it is less up front but it is still very much alive and kicking. Most of the time just instead of hearing about the Jews you hear about the "globalists" or even the "capitalists". It is not a coincidence that the big boogie man in the US (maybe everywhere) to the right is was born to a Jewish family, George Soros. It is also not surprising that Trump claimed if he loses it will be because of the Jews. The group that has the most hate crimes reported in North America is the Jews (that doesn't mean they experience the most because they are also more likely to report it than other groups but it does indicate that it is still very prevalent). I do agree with you that antisemitism rises when Israel gets in wars, the same way Islamaphobia does after a big terrorist attack. It also gives more popularity to the groups that vow to destroy "the enemy". It is not surprising that both Netanyahu and Hamas have gained popularity since Oct 7th. I also agree that there would not be a Holocaust, at least in the immediate future if Israel didn't respond at all. Because Israel has the superior military for now, and its allies are much more powerful than Iran's. And I agree that this war, and its coverage are creating a whole new generation of antisemites and Islamaphobes. But it is also true that there is likely a lot more Russians who hate Ukrainians than before for killing so many of their sons, they should logically be mad at Putin, but that is just not how it works especially given how skilled everyone is with propaganda and spin.
I completely agree with you there is still old school antisemitism out there. You find it on the right and sonetimes the far left. I know also that it’s prevalent in Eastern Europe and that when you go look a bit in the alt right ideology you find stuff that really reek of the 1930s.
That’s a completely different antisemitism from the antisemitism that you find in muslim communities, that finds its sources and it’s fuel in the conflict in Palestine. It very rarely leads to violence. It’s based on different ideas, has a different history. And i really believe it’s pretty marginal overall and certainly not an existential threat to jews.
I think conflating the antisemitism of Hitler or neo nazis and the antisemitism of the Hamas only leads to confusion and is pretty absurd. It serves Israel’s rhetoric though.
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EPT
