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I don't think anyone is seriously considering scenarios where Israelis have to answer in the Hague.
Western world might still be looking to impose limits but would never turn on Israel to that degree.
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On October 06 2024 22:21 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 21:03 PremoBeats wrote:On October 06 2024 20:27 Magic Powers wrote:" “I think today, the priority is that we return to a political solution, that we stop delivering arms for fighting in Gaza,” Macron said. He said France is not delivering any." "Following successive Israeli attacks in Lebanon, he said the Lebanese people should not be “sacrificed” and Lebanon should not become “a new Gaza.” " Iran also offers a cease-fire under the condition that Israel stops fighting in Gaza. Friendly reminder that Hezbollah has said the same thing. https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-israel-gaza-halt-weapons-delivery Easy to say for Macron, as his country wasn't the target of an unprecedented attack. And wouldn't it be nice to be in Hezbollah's shoes? Attack a sovereign nation with their Hamas buddies and once it fights back, call for a cease-fire. Also a friendly reminder: Israel offers a cease-fire too once their demands are met. Hooray. So has Russia.
And?
By the way: Have you in the meantime come to accept that Hamas launched rockets at Israel from safety zones, as the link you yourself posted, has mentioned?
On October 06 2024 22:50 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 22:46 Elroi wrote:On October 06 2024 22:13 Magic Powers wrote:On October 06 2024 21:07 Elroi wrote:This is a friendly reminder that Hezbollah was regularly launching rockets into Israel before the war in Gaza started. Friendly reminder that Israel has committed war crimes in the West bank and oppressed Gaza before October 7. Sure; maybe. I was just reacting to your post about hezbollah saying they would stop fighting if Israel withdrew from Gaza, which is obviously nonsensical. Hezbollah launched rockets into Israel literally a month before the current conflict started and they have repeatedly promised to wipe Israel off the map. Hezbollah has fired rockets before, but not at the same scale. They strongly ramped it up since October 7. Israel on the other hand has always killed roughly ten times as many people as Muslim terrorist groups have killed Israelis.
Israel only kills so many more because of their military superiority. If the roles were reversed, there'd be hardly a Jew left in the Middle East.
I never understood why you think that the absolute casualty comparison is in any way, shape or form helpful to your side of argumentation.
On October 07 2024 00:16 pmp10 wrote:
I don't think anyone is seriously considering scenarios where Israelis have to answer in the Hague.
Western world might still be looking to impose limits but would never turn on Israel to that degree.
Agreed.
Any thoughts in regards to my last reply where I refuted the idea that Israel tried to starve Gazans?
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On October 07 2024 00:16 pmp10 wrote:
I don't think anyone is seriously considering scenarios where Israelis have to answer in the Hague.
Western world might still be looking to impose limits but would never turn on Israel to that degree.
Yeah The Hague is just a representation, it's more the generic idea that the expansion war of Israel will be disavowed. There's also the 10% of muslims in France that were mentioned earlier that Macron may feel he has to keep calm a little bit, but I am skeptical that this would be a main motivation for him, doesn't line up with the rightwing's general politics.
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On October 07 2024 00:16 pmp10 wrote:
I don't think anyone is seriously considering scenarios where Israelis have to answer in the Hague.
Western world might still be looking to impose limits but would never turn on Israel to that degree.
It sure feels like most people in the west could rationalize Israel killing every last Palestinian, while still maintaining their pretended obliviousness to their own complicity in genocide and the irreparable damage this does to the "RBIO"
The unprecedented support for Palestinians from around the world (not so much from their ostensibly democratic Western governments) has only been slightly more encouraging than the unadulterated heinousness of support/rationalizing for Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign has been discouraging
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On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies?
Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran.
UAE recently came out with a somewhat cryptic but fairly telling statement about how the destabilizing foreign militias should be a thing of the past. A lot of countries are scared of having a Hezbollah do what it has to Lebanon. Especially when they are also in Yemen, Iraq and took Gaza by force.
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On October 07 2024 00:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 00:16 pmp10 wrote:
I don't think anyone is seriously considering scenarios where Israelis have to answer in the Hague.
Western world might still be looking to impose limits but would never turn on Israel to that degree. Yeah The Hague is just a representation, it's more the generic idea that the expansion war of Israel will be disavowed. There's also the 10% of muslims in France that were mentioned earlier that Macron may feel he has to keep calm a little bit, but I am skeptical that this would be a main motivation for him, doesn't line up with the rightwing's general politics.
Macron is just full of shit, he talks a huge game about supporting Ukraine and even has talked about sending troops, but then the numbers do not come close to backing it up. (behind Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Japan
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On October 07 2024 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 00:16 pmp10 wrote:
I don't think anyone is seriously considering scenarios where Israelis have to answer in the Hague.
Western world might still be looking to impose limits but would never turn on Israel to that degree. It sure feels like most people in the west could rationalize Israel killing every last Palestinian, while still maintaining their pretended obliviousness to their own complicity in genocide and the irreparable damage this does to the "RBIO" The unprecedented support for Palestinians from around the world (not so much from their ostensibly democratic Western governments) has only been slightly more encouraging than the unadulterated heinousness of support/rationalizing for Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign has been discouraging
Again this trope about suppossed genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Have you ever seen a population being genocided over 7 decades and having grown to ten times its original size?
It is also irritating to me seeing these accusations flying around when comparing numbers:
With the population of Gaza standing at 2.2 million and 42k being casualties, 2% of the population is dead with the death toll rising ever slower, since 20k died up until end of December 2023. Subtract the terrorists and the numbers go down significantely.
But let’s look at other genocides:
Rwanda: 70% of the Tutsi were killed
Jews in Europe during Holocaust: 66%
Cambodia: 20-25%.
Armenia: 70-75%
Herero and Namaqua: 75%/50%
In a uni-lateral move in 2005, Israel de-settled Gaza completely.
So how do you justify this accusation?
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On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran.
Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians.
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On October 07 2024 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians.
Wagner outside of Russia is filled with people from wherever it was "liberating" in Ukraine it had plenty of Ukrainians, Africa many Africans and so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group
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On October 07 2024 02:09 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians. Wagner outside of Russia is filled with people from wherever it was "liberating" in Ukraine it had plenty of Ukrainians, Africa many Africans and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group
I did not know that, thanks.
Feels like the point stands though doesn't it? There's a reason why you had to add outside of Russia. The leadership of Wagner is Russian, the leadership of Hezbollah is/was Lebanese. If Russia's plans change in whatever conflict Wagner is in, Wagner is going to exit the conflict. If Iran makes some sort of deal with Israel where they let them continue their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in peace, Hezbollah will continue to oppose it.
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On October 07 2024 00:22 PremoBeats wrote:
Any thoughts in regards to my last reply where I refuted the idea that Israel tried to starve Gazans?
My thought are that you refuted nothing.
Until you can provide alternative explanation for the creation of Gaza floating pier the simples explanation applies.
The simplest explanation being that Israel was deliberately starving Gaza out of bloody-minded vengefulness and US had to step in to save their reputation.
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On October 07 2024 02:34 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 00:22 PremoBeats wrote:
Any thoughts in regards to my last reply where I refuted the idea that Israel tried to starve Gazans?
My thought are that you refuted nothing. Until you can provide alternative explanation for the creation of Gaza floating pier the simples explanation applies. The simplest explanation being that Israel was deliberately starving Gaza out of bloody-minded vengefulness and US had to step in to save their reputation.
So you deny that only less than 2% of the trucks were denied entry?
Do you also deny the 650 truck standing at Kerem Shalom post-inspection?
Do you also deny that 50% more food than the calculated nutrional needs entered Gaza?
Do you also deny that Palestinians said that Hamas is stealing goods and re-selling them at inflated prices on the black market?
Do you also deny that Hamas' ware houses are bursting from humanitarian aid and that they beat up and torture civilins who try to get to this aid?
You deny all this to create a narrative about a Pier that due to logistical issues and adverse weather conditions rarely made any dents into the overall aid delivery and only operated for 20 days? Are you for real here? Is this your point of contention?
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On October 07 2024 02:31 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 02:09 Billyboy wrote:On October 07 2024 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians. Wagner outside of Russia is filled with people from wherever it was "liberating" in Ukraine it had plenty of Ukrainians, Africa many Africans and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group I did not know that, thanks. Feels like the point stands though doesn't it? There's a reason why you had to add outside of Russia. The leadership of Wagner is Russian, the leadership of Hezbollah is/was Lebanese. If Russia's plans change in whatever conflict Wagner is in, Wagner is going to exit the conflict. If Iran makes some sort of deal with Israel where they let them continue their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in peace, Hezbollah will continue to oppose it.
Well the ethnic Russians would go back, I would guess, but the local mercenaries would stay and fight for a variety of reasons. It is strange you are buying into the propaganda that Hezbollah is fighting for the Palestinians freedom. They do not believe in freedom for anything they are fighting to be the oppressors (impose their extremist religious beliefs, while also just also being super corrupt and wealthy and powerful themselves). There stated goals forever have been about destroying Israel, killing everyone there, and spreading their extremist views globally. I'm sure many or even almost all believe completely in that religious message. But for the leadership it is just a means to control people, get them to die for their empire building. Iran wants to return to its once glorious past just the same as Putin.
Big difference is Russia leans way more into nation and Iran way more into religion. But the jist is the same. They are allies for a reason.
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On October 07 2024 02:50 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 02:31 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 02:09 Billyboy wrote:On October 07 2024 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians. Wagner outside of Russia is filled with people from wherever it was "liberating" in Ukraine it had plenty of Ukrainians, Africa many Africans and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group I did not know that, thanks. Feels like the point stands though doesn't it? There's a reason why you had to add outside of Russia. The leadership of Wagner is Russian, the leadership of Hezbollah is/was Lebanese. If Russia's plans change in whatever conflict Wagner is in, Wagner is going to exit the conflict. If Iran makes some sort of deal with Israel where they let them continue their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in peace, Hezbollah will continue to oppose it. Well the ethnic Russians would go back, I would guess, but the local mercenaries would stay and fight for a variety of reasons.
So you agree that it's not very similar, then? In one case the organization pulls back and some individuals continue to fight if they want to, and in the other case the organization stays.
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On October 06 2024 22:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 17:14 RvB wrote:On October 06 2024 06:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2024 04:19 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:05 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Yes it is, they have horrible thoughts but don't want to be a horrible person so they look for excuses/reasons for why their thought is not horrible but just factual. It is not exclusively a right thing either.
This is why Kwark pointed out antisemtism existed long before Israel even existed. And to the Black example racism would not go away if whites were now committing more crime per captita. Racists would just find another stat to cherry pick or excuse.
So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. You are misrepresenting a bit what I say. I am saying that in countries with large jewish poulation, say, the US, France and so on, there is no systematic antisemitism whatsoever from the institutions, virtually no antisemitism in politics, and very little antisemitism among the native population. What we call modern antisemitism, that led to the Holocaust is really not prevalent anymore. You don’t have political parties running an anti-jewish platform anymore. You don’t see systematic, prevalent violence against jews the way you would have in the past. That role of scapegoat is directed against muslims. If anyone talked about jews the way right wing politicians talk about muslims everywhere in the West, they would be crucified. On that front, jews are safe in ways they really were not in 1880, or in 1920. Now. The overwhelming majority of cases - very real - where jews are facing hostility and even violence in the West is due to the muslim population. That antisemitism is linked to Israel, its wars and its policies. It’s evil, it’s dangerous, it’s to be fought. But it’s not just out of the blue racism just because. And unsurprisingly, antisemtic acts explode whenever Israel gets into another one of their wars. So. That drives my point that no, if Israel stopped oppressing palestinians, there wouldn’t be another holocaust because jews would not be defended, which is the point i was answering to. For context and to be totally clear, I am a descendant of ashkenaze immigrants. And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere. I appreciate you taking the time to get into more detail. There are some things you wrote that I disagree with much that I agree with. I Mainly disagree that antisemitism is gone, it never went away. The Jewish people are very vigilant about calling it out because of what happened so it is less up front but it is still very much alive and kicking. Most of the time just instead of hearing about the Jews you hear about the "globalists" or even the "capitalists". It is not a coincidence that the big boogie man in the US (maybe everywhere) to the right is was born to a Jewish family, George Soros. It is also not surprising that Trump claimed if he loses it will be because of the Jews. The group that has the most hate crimes reported in North America is the Jews (that doesn't mean they experience the most because they are also more likely to report it than other groups but it does indicate that it is still very prevalent). I do agree with you that antisemitism rises when Israel gets in wars, the same way Islamaphobia does after a big terrorist attack. It also gives more popularity to the groups that vow to destroy "the enemy". It is not surprising that both Netanyahu and Hamas have gained popularity since Oct 7th. I also agree that there would not be a Holocaust, at least in the immediate future if Israel didn't respond at all. Because Israel has the superior military for now, and its allies are much more powerful than Iran's. And I agree that this war, and its coverage are creating a whole new generation of antisemites and Islamaphobes. But it is also true that there is likely a lot more Russians who hate Ukrainians than before for killing so many of their sons, they should logically be mad at Putin, but that is just not how it works especially given how skilled everyone is with propaganda and spin. I completely agree with you there is still old school antisemitism out there. You find it on the right and sonetimes the far left. I know also that it’s prevalent in Eastern Europe and that when you go look a bit in the alt right ideology you find stuff that really reek of the 1930s. That’s a completely different antisemitism from the antisemitism that you find in muslim communities, that finds its sources and it’s fuel in the conflict in Palestine. It very rarely leads to violence. It’s based on different ideas, has a different history. And i really believe it’s pretty marginal overall and certainly not an existential threat to jews. I think conflating the antisemitism of Hitler or neo nazis and the antisemitism of the Hamas only leads to confusion and is pretty absurd. It serves Israel’s rhetoric though. There is no old anti semitism of the Nazis and new anti semitism of Hamas. There were already progroms in the middle east before ww2 like the Nabi Musa progrom and the Hebron massacre. This continued throughout ww2 (for example the Farhud in Iraq) culminating with the expulsion of Jews all over the middle east and the invasion by the Arabs after the founding of Israel. The anti semitism of Hamas is a direct result of the collaboration between the Nazis and Arab nationalists. I disagree. There very much is. And there is also a judeophobia from before modern antisemitism that has really little to do with XIXth century antisemitism. Henry Laurens explains that very, very well in his seminal book, the Question of Palestine. It’s a fascinating read. So. Those are very different form of racism, driven by different themes, different groups, in different positions. The antisemitism we know best, modern antisemitism is a reaction to the tidal waves of very poor ashkenaze population that flooded central Europe in the mid XIXth century. For reference Vienna’s jewish population went from 3000 to 200k in about two decades. It’s quite fascinating to read what people thought and said at the time. That they were ignorant, dirty, they didn’t speak the language, they drove crime up, all those things. Lueger, from the anti semitic CS party won the Vienna mayoral election in 1898. Whats even more fascinating is that jews that has been there for centuries and were actually pretty well integrated, shared the same disdain from those immigrants. In that respect, it looks a loooot like what we see with muslims today. A hatred for poor people, badly integrated, arriving too quickly. Antisemitism is the muslim world is absolutely not born from those circumstances and shares very little themes with it. It’s born from a conflict. Does it borrow to old tropes? Surely. It’s still a completely different animal. You mix them up you stop having any chance to understand anything. The problem is that pretending this is a conflict about racism is just dishonest. It’s a war, and a colonial conflict about very concrete things. If you frame it as “oh they are racist, they hate jews, that’s it”, then there is no hope to get to any compromise or reflect on what exactly Israel is doing. And yes, that conflict has lasted 80 years and now there is lots of hatred and racism on both sides. But please. When you have been chased from your land, humiliated, bombed, have had your resources and your future stolen, and you decide to take arms, it’s not racism. French resistant really, really hated the germans during the war. Like, proper racism level. I hope you would agree that framing their fight as driven by racism would be a bit rich. And yea, germans absolutely did call them terrorists. About the collaboration between Husseini and the nazis, you realize they were already in the conflict in Palestine. And if you want to talk about that, i suggest you google the Haavara agreement or just look into Ben Gurion’s unsavoury dealings with the nazis: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-10-31/ty-article/.premium/even-ben-gurion-exploited-the-holocaust/0000017f-edc7-d3be-ad7f-ffef7d060000
The haaretz opinion piece is paywalled. When exactly do you think the Israeli-Arab conflict started?
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On October 07 2024 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 02:50 Billyboy wrote:On October 07 2024 02:31 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 02:09 Billyboy wrote:On October 07 2024 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians. Wagner outside of Russia is filled with people from wherever it was "liberating" in Ukraine it had plenty of Ukrainians, Africa many Africans and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group I did not know that, thanks. Feels like the point stands though doesn't it? There's a reason why you had to add outside of Russia. The leadership of Wagner is Russian, the leadership of Hezbollah is/was Lebanese. If Russia's plans change in whatever conflict Wagner is in, Wagner is going to exit the conflict. If Iran makes some sort of deal with Israel where they let them continue their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in peace, Hezbollah will continue to oppose it. Well the ethnic Russians would go back, I would guess, but the local mercenaries would stay and fight for a variety of reasons. So you agree that it's not very similar, then? In one case the organization pulls back and some individuals continue to fight if they want to, and in the other case the organization stays.
No I clearly believe what I said, that they are very similar but not exactly the same. Seems like you accidently completely misread.
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On October 07 2024 03:11 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 22:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2024 17:14 RvB wrote:On October 06 2024 06:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2024 04:19 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 03:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2024 02:04 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On October 06 2024 01:29 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So, you're confusing two different things here, which is racists arguing that they aren't racists and racists believing that their racism is justified. Racists are going to use excuses to say that they aren't racists, and their reasoning will either be genuine ("I'm a good person and racism is bad, so I can't be a racist!!") or dishonest ("I'm trying to achieve something for the cause of racism by pretending I'm not a racist"). Regardless, all of these people who have a racist sentiment (or literally any political sentiment, really) believe that this sentiment is justified, they're not looking for excuses. When people think their ideology is unjustified, what they do is they change their ideology. I'm not confused, I agree with this post. It does not argue against what I'm saying it supports it. You just don't seem to believe that some people hating on Israel are doing out of racism (antisemites). It is also true that some racism and other biases are based on personal experience. So when someone gets mugged by a black person they are more likely to become racist than someone who has never had a negative experience with a black person. I have more empathy for those people. I have some empathy for those who social media feeds are showing them nothing but the worst of a group, but less. Still at the end of the day it is a bias, in this case racial and not fair. Blaming Jews for antisemtism is pretty much classic antisemitism. The same way blaming Muslims for Islamphobia is islamphobia. Perhaps the big difference is you find it easy to find empathy for the Muslims but for some reason can't find empathy for the Jews so to you it appears reasonable for antisemitism but does not for Islamphobia. To me both are the enemy of peace. But you see the issue here is that none of this makes sense based on our conversation, you're just introducing a bunch of new things. Biff said that when Israel kills a bunch of Arabs it fuels antisemitism in the arab population, an obviously true statement. You said no, that's just an excuse. I said obviously not, nobody is like "Damn it I really want to hate the Jews but I don't have a good reason to do it, finally they killed my family I have a good excuse now". You then displayed an incorrect perception of how racists view themselves and the world, which I tried to correct. And now suddenly you've decided that we are talking about the difference between hating Israel and hating Jews, or that we're blaming Jews for antisemitism? No, that is not what we were doing. If you can manage to have empathy for someone who becomes more racist after having been mugged by a black person, then there's no reason why you should disagree with anything that was said. You don't think that your empathy means that you're blaming black people for antiblack racism. Reactionary views happen in reaction to things, this is easy. You don't have to create some kind of weirdo who is troubled by his horrible thoughts and then searches for excuses. That is not what Biff said, you are being dishonest or you just get wildly charitable with "your side" and then act the opposite with people you have decided are "on the other side". He said "oppression of Palestinians is what fuels antisemitism everywhere" and then further explained that antisemtism "wasn't really a thing anymore" after holocaust. These are obviously incorrect statements as there are plenty of antisemites who give less than a shit about Palestinians (like the "Axis of Resistance" and your run of the mill skinhead, I mean really most antisemites not in Palestine. It is concerning that you are defending it and strange that you feel the need to make a bunch of negative presumptions of me for pointing out something that is objectively true. Here is something else that might blow your mind based on this conversation. Most racists don't think they are racists, they think they are right and either the other person is wrong, or just won't admit what they know to be true for fear of being labeled as a racist. You are misrepresenting a bit what I say. I am saying that in countries with large jewish poulation, say, the US, France and so on, there is no systematic antisemitism whatsoever from the institutions, virtually no antisemitism in politics, and very little antisemitism among the native population. What we call modern antisemitism, that led to the Holocaust is really not prevalent anymore. You don’t have political parties running an anti-jewish platform anymore. You don’t see systematic, prevalent violence against jews the way you would have in the past. That role of scapegoat is directed against muslims. If anyone talked about jews the way right wing politicians talk about muslims everywhere in the West, they would be crucified. On that front, jews are safe in ways they really were not in 1880, or in 1920. Now. The overwhelming majority of cases - very real - where jews are facing hostility and even violence in the West is due to the muslim population. That antisemitism is linked to Israel, its wars and its policies. It’s evil, it’s dangerous, it’s to be fought. But it’s not just out of the blue racism just because. And unsurprisingly, antisemtic acts explode whenever Israel gets into another one of their wars. So. That drives my point that no, if Israel stopped oppressing palestinians, there wouldn’t be another holocaust because jews would not be defended, which is the point i was answering to. For context and to be totally clear, I am a descendant of ashkenaze immigrants. And as Nevuchad pointed out, I am not defending antisemtism, and not justifying it morally. My point is that the actions of Israel are absolutely detrimental to jews all around the globe and that without that, they would be much safer everywhere. I appreciate you taking the time to get into more detail. There are some things you wrote that I disagree with much that I agree with. I Mainly disagree that antisemitism is gone, it never went away. The Jewish people are very vigilant about calling it out because of what happened so it is less up front but it is still very much alive and kicking. Most of the time just instead of hearing about the Jews you hear about the "globalists" or even the "capitalists". It is not a coincidence that the big boogie man in the US (maybe everywhere) to the right is was born to a Jewish family, George Soros. It is also not surprising that Trump claimed if he loses it will be because of the Jews. The group that has the most hate crimes reported in North America is the Jews (that doesn't mean they experience the most because they are also more likely to report it than other groups but it does indicate that it is still very prevalent). I do agree with you that antisemitism rises when Israel gets in wars, the same way Islamaphobia does after a big terrorist attack. It also gives more popularity to the groups that vow to destroy "the enemy". It is not surprising that both Netanyahu and Hamas have gained popularity since Oct 7th. I also agree that there would not be a Holocaust, at least in the immediate future if Israel didn't respond at all. Because Israel has the superior military for now, and its allies are much more powerful than Iran's. And I agree that this war, and its coverage are creating a whole new generation of antisemites and Islamaphobes. But it is also true that there is likely a lot more Russians who hate Ukrainians than before for killing so many of their sons, they should logically be mad at Putin, but that is just not how it works especially given how skilled everyone is with propaganda and spin. I completely agree with you there is still old school antisemitism out there. You find it on the right and sonetimes the far left. I know also that it’s prevalent in Eastern Europe and that when you go look a bit in the alt right ideology you find stuff that really reek of the 1930s. That’s a completely different antisemitism from the antisemitism that you find in muslim communities, that finds its sources and it’s fuel in the conflict in Palestine. It very rarely leads to violence. It’s based on different ideas, has a different history. And i really believe it’s pretty marginal overall and certainly not an existential threat to jews. I think conflating the antisemitism of Hitler or neo nazis and the antisemitism of the Hamas only leads to confusion and is pretty absurd. It serves Israel’s rhetoric though. There is no old anti semitism of the Nazis and new anti semitism of Hamas. There were already progroms in the middle east before ww2 like the Nabi Musa progrom and the Hebron massacre. This continued throughout ww2 (for example the Farhud in Iraq) culminating with the expulsion of Jews all over the middle east and the invasion by the Arabs after the founding of Israel. The anti semitism of Hamas is a direct result of the collaboration between the Nazis and Arab nationalists. I disagree. There very much is. And there is also a judeophobia from before modern antisemitism that has really little to do with XIXth century antisemitism. Henry Laurens explains that very, very well in his seminal book, the Question of Palestine. It’s a fascinating read. So. Those are very different form of racism, driven by different themes, different groups, in different positions. The antisemitism we know best, modern antisemitism is a reaction to the tidal waves of very poor ashkenaze population that flooded central Europe in the mid XIXth century. For reference Vienna’s jewish population went from 3000 to 200k in about two decades. It’s quite fascinating to read what people thought and said at the time. That they were ignorant, dirty, they didn’t speak the language, they drove crime up, all those things. Lueger, from the anti semitic CS party won the Vienna mayoral election in 1898. Whats even more fascinating is that jews that has been there for centuries and were actually pretty well integrated, shared the same disdain from those immigrants. In that respect, it looks a loooot like what we see with muslims today. A hatred for poor people, badly integrated, arriving too quickly. Antisemitism is the muslim world is absolutely not born from those circumstances and shares very little themes with it. It’s born from a conflict. Does it borrow to old tropes? Surely. It’s still a completely different animal. You mix them up you stop having any chance to understand anything. The problem is that pretending this is a conflict about racism is just dishonest. It’s a war, and a colonial conflict about very concrete things. If you frame it as “oh they are racist, they hate jews, that’s it”, then there is no hope to get to any compromise or reflect on what exactly Israel is doing. And yes, that conflict has lasted 80 years and now there is lots of hatred and racism on both sides. But please. When you have been chased from your land, humiliated, bombed, have had your resources and your future stolen, and you decide to take arms, it’s not racism. French resistant really, really hated the germans during the war. Like, proper racism level. I hope you would agree that framing their fight as driven by racism would be a bit rich. And yea, germans absolutely did call them terrorists. About the collaboration between Husseini and the nazis, you realize they were already in the conflict in Palestine. And if you want to talk about that, i suggest you google the Haavara agreement or just look into Ben Gurion’s unsavoury dealings with the nazis: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-10-31/ty-article/.premium/even-ben-gurion-exploited-the-holocaust/0000017f-edc7-d3be-ad7f-ffef7d060000 The haaretz opinion piece is paywalled. When exactly do you think the Israeli-Arab conflict started?
Part of the confusion could be with the University definition compared to general use definition of Racism. In scholarly talk Racism requires a massive power difference that is used and the use Racial Prejudice for what most lay people use Racism.
Just an aside, but I was thinking this might be why some people talking are like ships passing in the night.
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On October 07 2024 03:18 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 02:50 Billyboy wrote:On October 07 2024 02:31 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 02:09 Billyboy wrote:On October 07 2024 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. Well no it isn't very similar to Wagner. Hezbollah and Hamas members are not Iranians. Wagner outside of Russia is filled with people from wherever it was "liberating" in Ukraine it had plenty of Ukrainians, Africa many Africans and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group I did not know that, thanks. Feels like the point stands though doesn't it? There's a reason why you had to add outside of Russia. The leadership of Wagner is Russian, the leadership of Hezbollah is/was Lebanese. If Russia's plans change in whatever conflict Wagner is in, Wagner is going to exit the conflict. If Iran makes some sort of deal with Israel where they let them continue their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in peace, Hezbollah will continue to oppose it. Well the ethnic Russians would go back, I would guess, but the local mercenaries would stay and fight for a variety of reasons. So you agree that it's not very similar, then? In one case the organization pulls back and some individuals continue to fight if they want to, and in the other case the organization stays. No I clearly believe what I said, that they are very similar but not exactly the same. Seems like you accidently completely misread.
Okay, I'm sorry for misreading you. Have a nice day.
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On October 07 2024 02:46 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2024 02:34 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2024 00:22 PremoBeats wrote:
Any thoughts in regards to my last reply where I refuted the idea that Israel tried to starve Gazans?
My thought are that you refuted nothing. Until you can provide alternative explanation for the creation of Gaza floating pier the simples explanation applies. The simplest explanation being that Israel was deliberately starving Gaza out of bloody-minded vengefulness and US had to step in to save their reputation. So you deny that only less than 2% of the trucks were denied entry? Do you also deny the 650 truck standing at Kerem Shalom post-inspection? Do you also deny that 50% more food than the calculated nutrional needs entered Gaza? Do you also deny that Palestinians said that Hamas is stealing goods and re-selling them at inflated prices on the black market? Do you also deny that Hamas' ware houses are bursting from humanitarian aid and that they beat up and torture civilins who try to get to this aid?
I say irrelevant to the point, true or otherwise.
On October 07 2024 02:46 PremoBeats wrote:
You deny all this to create a narrative about a Pier that due to logistical issues and adverse weather conditions rarely made any dents into the overall aid delivery and only operated for 20 days? Are you for real here? Is this your point of contention?
Ask yourself why US made that pier despite all these complication.
Biden was willing to risk failure (which it turned out to be) exactly because Israel's alternative at the time was way worse.
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On October 07 2024 01:16 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2024 23:08 Acrofales wrote:On October 06 2024 17:07 maybenexttime wrote:
How are Hamas and Hezbollah non-governmental? Of what countries are those organisations governing bodies? Iran. It is very similar to Wagner or the various other Russia militia's in Africa. Are they government or not? Most people outside of Russia, Iran, NK so on think they are government but it is denied by Russia and Iran. UAE recently came out with a somewhat cryptic but fairly telling statement about how the destabilizing foreign militias should be a thing of the past. A lot of countries are scared of having a Hezbollah do what it has to Lebanon. Especially when they are also in Yemen, Iraq and took Gaza by force.
The relationship between Hezbollah and Iran might be similar to Russia and Wagner, but that was obviously not what maybenexttime was talking about, as that's the reverse relationship and exactly what I described in my earlier post. But regardless (and also regardless of the differences between Hezbollah and Wagner that you've been discussing with Nebu), Hamas' relationship with Iran is definitely different. Iran was caught by surprise on October 7 and probably wouldn't have sanctioned that, because it has brought on a world of problems they probably didn't want to deal with.
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EPT
