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On September 30 2024 02:47 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2024 23:33 Husyelt wrote:On September 29 2024 14:58 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 11:56 Husyelt wrote:On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote:
Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now. Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza. "A Waco a day, the IDF way" Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda. https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says.Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin. https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5123377/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-fightingIn one day Israel killed 500 Lebanese people. All to kill 1 dude. Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher. Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza. For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person: Show nested quote +Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.
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The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster.
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On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
www.npr.org
What on earth are you talking about. The current death toll in Gaza is over 50,000. Hamas killed 800 civilians. Thats 50-1.
The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut.
at the end of the day lets say the death counts of civilians and terrorists is split between our numbers. Israel has no post war plan for Gaza. it had none for 2006, and it has none for 2024. the occupation will continue until Hamas lashes out, and Israel will turn the civilian population to rubble until morale improves.
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Norway28911 Posts
The civilian/terrorist ratio is usually meant to describe how many civilians Israel (in this context) kills for each terrorist Israel kills, not how many Israel kills compared to how many Hamas kills. I think it's entirely fair to point out that Israel has killed way more palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians (the number may or may not be higher than 50x, either way it's way above) but that's not what RvB is arguing nor what the civilian/terrorist casualty number normally is supposed to reflect.
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On September 30 2024 11:11 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 10:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way. This just sounds wrong because you wouldn't say it about Ukrainians, and it certainly didn't happen to the Japanese after ww2 or many other places after awful bombing campaigns. It seems that far more important than the how terrible the enemy was, or what horrible things happened, but the leadership that puts back society together. If it is Iran you are almost certainly right, ISIS the same. Lets hope Lebanon and Palestinians get something better, they certainly deserve it.
Why do people keep comparing Japan or Germany to Palestine? They're not even remotely similar situations. Palestine didn't go on an unprovoked war of aggression, Japan was not under a hostile occupation for several generations.
You have a point about leadership putting society back together being important -- but it's not as if Palestine has any chance of putting anything back together when they're not recognized as a state, do not have control of their borders (or even their internal territories), are bombed and shot at on a daily basis, etc. Expecting a peaceful society to be built under the conditions they are in is downright idiotic.
BTW KwarK, still waiting for you to quote where I said that I like Hamas' terrorism. And no, me being critical of Israeli occupation and violence in Palestine isn't the same as being a fan of terrorism.
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Of course now we're seeing settlement companies advertising for new settlements in Lebanon.
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What are settlement companies? That seems a bit premature when northern Israel is still uninhabitable because of Hezbollah rockets.
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Companies that build settlements for Israelis.
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Israel completely ignoring the UN peace option, not even acknowledging it. Netanyahu using increasingly more dangerous language. I think it's clear where this is heading. We're likely looking at another massacre.
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On September 30 2024 11:11 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 10:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way. This just sounds wrong because you wouldn't say it about Ukrainians, and it certainly didn't happen to the Japanese after ww2 or many other places after awful bombing campaigns. It seems that far more important than the how terrible the enemy was, or what horrible things happened, but the leadership that puts back society together. If it is Iran you are almost certainly right, ISIS the same. Lets hope Lebanon and Palestinians get something better, they certainly deserve it.
So Ukraine is not the middle east, and the history of oppression of ukrainians is very different than the history of oppression of Palestinians. What’s your point.
You know why i make that point? Because when the second intifada was crushed with all that unbelievable brutality by israel, i remember my dad looking at pictures and saying, the children in those images will grow up hating Israel so much that in 20 years they will be the ones setting it on fire. Well. Those kids are 25 to 30 now. And they were the ones that did october 6.
Israel knows nothing but force, brutality and repression. They don’t see further than the barrels of their tanks and off their F16. And they learn nothing.
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On September 30 2024 20:01 Elroi wrote:
What are settlement companies? That seems a bit premature when northern Israel is still uninhabitable because of Hezbollah rockets.
Premature is an interesting word to use there
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On September 30 2024 21:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 11:11 Billyboy wrote:On September 30 2024 10:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way. This just sounds wrong because you wouldn't say it about Ukrainians, and it certainly didn't happen to the Japanese after ww2 or many other places after awful bombing campaigns. It seems that far more important than the how terrible the enemy was, or what horrible things happened, but the leadership that puts back society together. If it is Iran you are almost certainly right, ISIS the same. Lets hope Lebanon and Palestinians get something better, they certainly deserve it. So Ukraine is not the middle east, and the history of oppression of ukrainians is very different than the history of oppression of Palestinians. What’s your point. You know why i make that point? Because when the second intifada was crushed with all that unbelievable brutality by israel, i remember my dad looking at pictures and saying, the children in those images will grow up hating Israel so much that in 20 years they will be the ones setting it on fire. Well. Those kids are 25 to 30 now. And they were the ones that did october 6. Israel knows nothing but force, brutality and repression. They don’t see further than the barrels of their tanks and off their F16. And they learn nothing.
Yes it is very different and that was my point. People can be oppressed bombed and all sorts of terrible things and they don't strap a bomb to themselves. It even felt wrong to suggest such a thing.
I'm not sure why it is a controversial opinion on this site to be against religious extremists who want to kill, displace anyone not like them. For some reason many of you only are against the Jews or Whites who do it. The Arab Muslims who want that are just as bad. Seems racist to not expect more from them when the vast majority over history were not.
Lots of absolutely terrible things have happened and then it got better after. What is happening now to Hezbollah right now is good. They are the worst of the worst. They are not friends of Lebanese, even less than Hamas is the friends of Palestinians.
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@Billy
"For some reason many of you only are against the Jews or Whites who do it."
Name one person in this thread who doesn't condemn Muslim terrorist attacks. I'll wait.
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On September 30 2024 18:24 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 11:11 Billyboy wrote:On September 30 2024 10:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way. This just sounds wrong because you wouldn't say it about Ukrainians, and it certainly didn't happen to the Japanese after ww2 or many other places after awful bombing campaigns. It seems that far more important than the how terrible the enemy was, or what horrible things happened, but the leadership that puts back society together. If it is Iran you are almost certainly right, ISIS the same. Lets hope Lebanon and Palestinians get something better, they certainly deserve it. Why do people keep comparing Japan or Germany to Palestine? They're not even remotely similar situations. Palestine didn't go on an unprovoked war of aggression, Japan was not under a hostile occupation for several generations. You have a point about leadership putting society back together being important -- but it's not as if Palestine has any chance of putting anything back together when they're not recognized as a state, do not have control of their borders (or even their internal territories), are bombed and shot at on a daily basis, etc. Expecting a peaceful society to be built under the conditions they are in is downright idiotic. BTW KwarK, still waiting for you to quote where I said that I like Hamas' terrorism. And no, me being critical of Israeli occupation and violence in Palestine isn't the same as being a fan of terrorism.
I was not saying the situations are the same, simply pointing out that massive bombing campaigns alone do not lead to suicide bombers.
Lebanon and Palestine have some major differences and a much "easier" or at least simpler path to sovereignty and hopefully peace and prosperity. Palestine is not even a recognized state so many many more steps given that, their location, and even just the logistics.
@MP This is not the mic drop you think so please stop. Everyone I have read has given the old terrorists are bad and hand waved and moved on. My point is that when anyone talks bad about Hezbollah, Hamas or any of the Iranian terrorist groups the dog pile of whatabout Israel and generally in a directly or indirect attack on the morality of the person for mentioning that without focusing 99% on Israel.
Iran terrorist groups are not freedom fighters. Try out this thought experiment. You use your MagicPowers and it works, Israel becomes the super nice friendly neighbors every country wants and needs. Other than it not being an active warzone, does it get any better for a 17 year old female in Gaza? How about 17 year old male? Does Iran stop waging their proxy war on Israel?
For it to get actually better for Palestinians it is very important for Iran to GTFO and stay within their borders. They are colonizers and they have some of the absolute worst human rights abuses of even their own people in the world.
Not saying that should get 50% of the posts on here, but that no one can have a discussion about it with out being mobbed, dog piled and attacked on a personal level if they try to talk about it is completely wrong.
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On October 01 2024 01:08 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 18:24 Salazarz wrote:On September 30 2024 11:11 Billyboy wrote:On September 30 2024 10:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way. This just sounds wrong because you wouldn't say it about Ukrainians, and it certainly didn't happen to the Japanese after ww2 or many other places after awful bombing campaigns. It seems that far more important than the how terrible the enemy was, or what horrible things happened, but the leadership that puts back society together. If it is Iran you are almost certainly right, ISIS the same. Lets hope Lebanon and Palestinians get something better, they certainly deserve it. Why do people keep comparing Japan or Germany to Palestine? They're not even remotely similar situations. Palestine didn't go on an unprovoked war of aggression, Japan was not under a hostile occupation for several generations. You have a point about leadership putting society back together being important -- but it's not as if Palestine has any chance of putting anything back together when they're not recognized as a state, do not have control of their borders (or even their internal territories), are bombed and shot at on a daily basis, etc. Expecting a peaceful society to be built under the conditions they are in is downright idiotic. BTW KwarK, still waiting for you to quote where I said that I like Hamas' terrorism. And no, me being critical of Israeli occupation and violence in Palestine isn't the same as being a fan of terrorism. Other than it not being an active warzone, does it get any better
Fantastic sentence
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On September 30 2024 23:35 Billyboy wrote:
What is happening now to Hezbollah right now is good. They are the worst of the worst. They are not friends of Lebanese, even less than Hamas is the friends of Palestinians.
Could you maybe elaborate why Hezbollah is to be considered worse for Lebanese than Hamas for Palestinians? It is an honest question as i am in no way sympathetic to Hezbollah. Because I remember articles in Western Media depicting Nazrallah as someone caring more for his people (which I understood as referring to Lebanese citizens) than Sinwar, who reportedly said that he would be fine with 100000 Palestinians dying if that would help his cause and Haniyeh who said that the spilling of the blood of women, children and elderly people in Gaza was necessary to strengthen the revolutionary spirit of Gazans. Hard to imagine that it gets any worse than that.
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@Billy
I see you prefer to keep lying about people. You're a welcome addition to my ignore list then.
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Lebanon’s military operating as predicted: leaving Iran to deal with the problems Iran created. Lebanon’s army is pulling back and letting Israel remove Hezbollah’s holdouts
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On September 30 2024 14:45 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 02:47 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 23:33 Husyelt wrote:On September 29 2024 14:58 RvB wrote:On September 29 2024 11:56 Husyelt wrote:On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote:
Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now. Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza. "A Waco a day, the IDF way" Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda. https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says.Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin. https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5123377/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-fightingIn one day Israel killed 500 Lebanese people. All to kill 1 dude. Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher. Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza. For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person: Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.
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The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster.
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On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
www.npr.org What on earth are you talking about. The current death toll in Gaza is over 50,000. Hamas killed 800 civilians. Thats 50-1. Show nested quote +The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut. at the end of the day lets say the death counts of civilians and terrorists is split between our numbers. Israel has no post war plan for Gaza. it had none for 2006, and it has none for 2024. the occupation will continue until Hamas lashes out, and Israel will turn the civilian population to rubble until morale improves.
Reread your own initial post:
Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
You were clearly talking about a civilian to terrorist death ratio. Especially in the context of the 300-1 number since that was the estimated number of deaths in the Nasrallah strike. Now you're changing it to something else again and it's not even a proper comparison. There are around 41500 fatalities according to Gaza health ministry. That includes Hamas militants yet you only use Israeli civilians.
Show nested quote +The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry. yeah hes lying to you. spoiler alert, Isreal lies and refuses journalists in, or did you forget about that? have you ever looked at satellite images of Gaza or Lebanon post strikes? Its just obliteration. Its like Mariupolor or Bakhmut.
You're selectively quoting. Leaving it out makes no difference to the point I was making. Your own source shows that the airstrikes are in multiple parts of Lebanon with significant casualties for Hezbollah. As I pointed out earlier Israel has eliminated most Hezbollahs senior leadership in a week. It's clearly part of their strategy:
The IDF is conducting a decapitation campaign targeting senior Hezbollah leadership as part of its air campaign across Lebanon. This campaign could impact Hezbollah’s ability to effectively organize and direct its forces. The IDF reported that its September 24 airstrike which killed Hezbollah’s Rocket and Missile Unit Commander Ibrahim Muhammad Qabisi also killed Qabisi’s deputy Abbas Sharafeddine and a senior commander from Hezbollah’s missile division, Hussein Ezzeddine.[7] Ezzeddine was reportedly close to the former top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr, who Israel killed in late July.[8] The IDF has conducted several major airstrikes in recent days targeting senior Hezbollah commanders and their communication networks.[9] CTP-ISW noted that Israel detonating Hezbollah pagers and personal radios disrupted the group’s internal communications and may have prompted the group to begin using less secure methods of communication that Israel could then intercept and exploit.[10] www.understandingwar.org
You're free to criticize Israel but at least stick to the facts.
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And another interesting thing to note:
Bibi's political fortunes are recovering.
If he scores more successes in Lebanon he might just get to stay at PM post.
Quite the reverse from the time when everyone expected him to soon land in prison.
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On October 01 2024 01:43 mcxds wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 23:35 Billyboy wrote:
What is happening now to Hezbollah right now is good. They are the worst of the worst. They are not friends of Lebanese, even less than Hamas is the friends of Palestinians. Could you maybe elaborate why Hezbollah is to be considered worse for Lebanese than Hamas for Palestinians? It is an honest question as i am in no way sympathetic to Hezbollah. Because I remember articles in Western Media depicting Nazrallah as someone caring more for his people (which I understood as referring to Lebanese citizens) than Sinwar, who reportedly said that he would be fine with 100000 Palestinians dying if that would help his cause and Haniyeh who said that the spilling of the blood of women, children and elderly people in Gaza was necessary to strengthen the revolutionary spirit of Gazans. Hard to imagine that it gets any worse than that.
Palestinians are oppressed and well it is unlikely that the Hamas leadership cares about the Palestinian freedom I'm sure that many of the fighters do.
On October 01 2024 01:44 Magic Powers wrote:
@Billy
I see you prefer to keep lying about people. You're a welcome addition to my ignore list then.
Thank you very much! I look forward to never hearing from you again, it has been nothing if not unpleasant!
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EPT
