NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now.
Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza.
"A Waco a day, the IDF way"
Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda.
On September 29 2024 11:05 Magic Powers wrote: Something that I think deserves much more attention.
"In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28 000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58 260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85 750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024"
This Youtuber explains in more detail why higher estimates are so important and why the direct death toll shouldn't be the measure to go by when judging the scale of death since October 7. The standard that's being applied during this conflict is far too strict to give us a true understanding of how many people have already been killed (and those who will later be dying from the conflict also as an indirect consequence). Other conflicts have not faced such a high level of scrutiny, and the current reported death toll appears to be much lower than the true death toll most likely is.
A couple of things in regards to the video.
1. The guy in the video compares the 4.8 million confirmed to the 6 million estimated deaths in the Holocaust to the numbers from the MoH in Gaza.This comparison lacks because: The IDF did not destroy evidence of the existence of Gazans like the Nazis did with IDs of the Jews (which happened on never before seen scales in the HC) 2. The video doesn’t address impossible data sets from Gaza, which never occurred with the Jewish data sets. 3. It probably is true that the numbers of the Gazan MoH are under more scrutiny and higher standards (can’t really verify or deny this claim, as there is no scientific method involved), because of number 2. If you post impossible data sets, then yes, you are more likely to be investigated and are held to higher standards than sources where such behavior did not happen. 4. Most conflict zones clearly make distinctions between combatants and civilians. Guess who does not? And guess which numbers benefitted in the past from this lack of transparency. 5. Yes, the Gazan MoH does not use news reports. Yet, nearly a ⅓ of the killed are attributed to news report sources (see 2nd link below). 6. Yes, Al-Shifa is very important as a beacon of civilian infrastructure, not only for medical reasons. Perhaps Hamas shouldn’t dig tunnels and hide weapons or terrorists there next time, then there’d be no reason for the IDF to target it. Oh, I forget… the guy in the video said that there are no tunnels near/under Al-Shifa, my bad.
7. The guy then compares the numbers of Gaza to Syria and Bosnia. Which means he compares whole countries - with more area to fight in - to combat zones in Gaza that are more similar to city conflicts (as I explained countless times to you and others in this thread). He also does not address the fact that in none of the other conflicts, civilian infrastructures were used by a warring faction as a shielding tactic. This - again - speaks to the ability of the IDF to kill so few civilians in comparison. Because if we compare the numbers to comparable zones out of these wars - let’s say Aleppo for the Syrian conflict and Sarajevo in the Bosnian conflict - abra kadabra: Israel fares much better. Aleppo 1:4 (Syria) Grozny 1:10 Beirut 1:3 to 1:5 Sarajevo 1:3 to 1:4 (Bosnia) Gaza 12k to 29k = 1:2.4 I don’t know if BE did this on purpose or simply does not understand the difference, but his comparison lacks immensely for the mentioned reasons. Even if we assume that death count to be higher (at one point he spoke of 25% underrepresentation of total deaths) I don’t see why that should influence the relative comparison in the casualty rate. It would address the total numbers though. 8. I agree with BE’s critique on the 90% statistic, which is bollocks. To be honest, I don't know why the IDS simply does not put out propaganda that compares Gaza to similar conflict zones like I did. Perhaps, I should give them a hint, lol. 9. 40k are not confirmed dead. That is wrong. As you posted a video, I’ll share another link.
If we assume that conflicts have higher deaths in the on-going years, that applies to all conflicts. If we further assume that premise to be true, all other conflicts’ numbers will go up the same way and relatively, nothing changed. My biggest critique of the video is the wrong comparison between conflicts that are not comparable.
I still think that each and every Gazan, Lebanese and Israeli death is one too many. But all these deaths have to be laid at the hands of H&H, who started this insane escalation with deliberate killings of Jewish and international civilians on October 7th and 8th respectively. Free the hostages and there will be no reason for the Israeli army to stay in Gaza. The killings can be stopped at this very moment.
On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now.
Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza.
"A Waco a day, the IDF way"
Such bullshit… Stop these obvious lies. Hezbollah started firing the moment they learned of the successful attack by Hamas. The IDF didn’t initiate its first limited ground invasion till the 13th of October and the first rockets were fired by Hezbollah on the 8th of October. How could they ask for a cease-fire in a counter-invasion that didn’t even start yet? Israel only launched the pagers and air strikes because intelligence learned of a significant Hezbollah plot to carry out a similar attack as October 7th which was planned by the Radwan Force. And your hyper-inflated victim numbers have no basis in reality, so stop the obvious lies.
Also fun times putting clown noses on those guys. Lonerbox literally goes through Hamas websites where they claim their dead. Like, he has found the widely reported civilian deaths and looked at what Hamas writes on their own website and lo and behold, a whole bunch of reported civilian deaths, Hamas has identified and claiming most of them as their own intifada soldiers, giving names, basic statistics and how they were fighting for the cause when they were killed. Hamas self snitches if you know where to look. Point is, people like Lonerbox aren't Israeli propagandists but are willing to investigate the claims made by both Israel and Palestine.
Sorry I'll develop there's no need to be a dick. There is no winning this conversation so there's no point in having it. When the death toll is going to be confirmed to be higher, absolutely none of you is going to care, you'll just talk about how wars are ugly and they kill people, and we won't feel good that we were right either because it means more people have died, which is bad.
On September 29 2024 17:10 Falling wrote: Also fun times putting clown noses on those guys. Lonerbox literally goes through Hamas websites where they claim their dead. Like, he has found the widely reported civilian deaths and looked at what Hamas writes on their own website and lo and behold, a whole bunch of reported civilian deaths, Hamas has identified and claiming most of them as their own intifada soldiers, giving names, basic statistics and how they were fighting for the cause when they were killed. Hamas self snitches if you know where to look. Point is, people like Lonerbox aren't Israeli propagandists but are willing to investigate the claims made by both Israel and Palestine.
While this argument has merit in regards to content creators, it changes absolutely nothing about the general argument that the true death toll is vastly greater than reported. That part is thoroughly explained and completely valid.
On September 29 2024 19:16 Nebuchad wrote: Oh no not a clown nose
Sorry I'll develop there's no need to be a dick. There is no winning this conversation so there's no point in having it. When the death toll is going to be confirmed to be higher, absolutely none of you is going to care, you'll just talk about how wars are ugly and they kill people, and we won't feel good that we were right either because it means more people have died, which is bad.
Being indifferent about something one has no control over is not the same as not caring for civilian deaths.
But you are right (for once): Wars are ugly and they kill people. But the only group of which this insane escalation of the conflict is attributable to is Hamas. They are also the ones who can end it because as soon as the hostages are free Israel loses all political ground to continue the counter-invasion.
On September 29 2024 17:10 Falling wrote: Also fun times putting clown noses on those guys. Lonerbox literally goes through Hamas websites where they claim their dead. Like, he has found the widely reported civilian deaths and looked at what Hamas writes on their own website and lo and behold, a whole bunch of reported civilian deaths, Hamas has identified and claiming most of them as their own intifada soldiers, giving names, basic statistics and how they were fighting for the cause when they were killed. Hamas self snitches if you know where to look. Point is, people like Lonerbox aren't Israeli propagandists but are willing to investigate the claims made by both Israel and Palestine.
While this argument has merit in regards to content creators, it changes absolutely nothing about the general argument that the true death toll is vastly greater than reported. That part is thoroughly explained and completely valid.
I dissected the video's argument above. As you don't want to contend with those, I find it amazing how you people only listen to what you want to hear, even in this thread. I seriously wonder how easy it must be to live in this unchallenged way of thinking and ignoring all counter arguments to the positions one inherits. Yes, the death tolls could be higher. That still doesn't address the insanely good soldier-to-civilian casualty rates of comparable conflicts. It still doesn't address the facts around humanitarian aid that runs contrary to all claim of forced starvation.
On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now.
Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza.
"A Waco a day, the IDF way"
Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says. Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin.
Lebanon news: diplomacy is back on the table. UN resolution 1701 is being proposed again. One million people have been displaced. Israel is yet to respond and the stance of the IDF has been very aggressive.
On September 29 2024 19:16 Nebuchad wrote: Oh no not a clown nose
Sorry I'll develop there's no need to be a dick. There is no winning this conversation so there's no point in having it. When the death toll is going to be confirmed to be higher, absolutely none of you is going to care, you'll just talk about how wars are ugly and they kill people, and we won't feel good that we were right either because it means more people have died, which is bad.
The death count will go up in an active war, yes. However, what Lonerbox's search through the Hamas websites and comparing them to the UN counts reveals is that the UN reports consistently over-represents the number civilian deaths and under counts the soldier death as compared to Hamas' own internal count. As a specific example there was some news report on how Israel and drone struck civilians coming out of a mosque.
That was the official report: Israel killed 8 civilians or something. Israel said they were intifada soldiers hiding in the mosque. Lonerbox compared that attack to Hamas' Arabic language website where they honour their martyrs, Lonerbox discovered Hamas claimed 7/8 of the casualties as intifada fighters. The full picture then becomes that Hamas operatives were being pursued by Israel, had dropped their weapons and hid in the mosque. Israel waited until they exited and then hit them with a drone strike, which killed the seven, but hit an eighth, a civilian. But the casualty count that gets listed in the UN report is 100% civilians because they came out of a mosque something that Hamas does not even claim when they honour their jihad fighters. He went through a number of other UN reports of attacks and compared them to Hamas' own reports and then you start seeing a pattern: Hamas' own identified fighters are usually counted as civilians by the UN even when Hamas doesn't even do so (internally). That matters because the more the fighter to civilian ratio goes up, suddenly the pictures starts looking more like discriminate military killings with civilian war time casualties whereas if every fighter is a civilian because Hamas doesn't typically wear uniforms, then it looks more like indiscriminate war crimes.
So, yeah. Screw the clown noses. Lonerbox has shown a willingness to attack pro-Israel and pro-Palestine ideologues in his reasonably deep research dives in pursuit of the fact of the matter.
On September 29 2024 19:16 Nebuchad wrote: Oh no not a clown nose
Sorry I'll develop there's no need to be a dick. There is no winning this conversation so there's no point in having it. When the death toll is going to be confirmed to be higher, absolutely none of you is going to care, you'll just talk about how wars are ugly and they kill people, and we won't feel good that we were right either because it means more people have died, which is bad.
The death count will go up in an active war, yes. However, what Lonerbox's search through the Hamas websites and comparing them to the UN counts reveals is that the UN reports consistently over-represents the number civilian deaths and undercounts the soldier death as compared to Hamas' own internal count. As a specific example there was some news report on how Israel and drone struck civilians coming out of a mosque.
That was the official report: Israel killed 8 civilians or something. Israel said they were intifada soldiers hiding in the mosque. Compare that attack to Hamas' Arabic language website where they honour their martyrs, Lonerbox discovered Hamas claimed 7/8 of the casualties as intifada fighters. The full picture then becomes that Hamas operatives were being pursued by Israel, had dropped their weapons and hid in the mosque. Israel waited until they exited and then hit them with a drone strike, which killed the seven, but hit an eighth, a civilian. But the casualty count that gets listed in the UN report is 100% civilians because they came out of a mosque something that Hamas does not even claim when they honour their jihad fighters. He went through quite other UN reports of attacks vs Hamas' own reports and then you start seeing a pattern: Hamas' own identified fighters are usually counted as civilians by the UN even when Hamas doesn't even do so (internally). That matters because the more the fighter to civilian ratio goes up, suddenly the pictures starts looking more like discriminate military killings with civilian war time casualties whereas if every fighter is a civilian because Hamas doesn't typically wear uniforms, then it looks like more like indiscriminate war crimes.
So, yeah. Screw the clown noses. Lonerbox has shown a willingness to attack pro-Israel and pro-Palestine ideologues in his reasonably deep research dives in pursuit of the fact of the matter.
Sorry you don't get to do this, as you know I meant that there are currently more people dead than is stated/reported, not that more people are going to die because it's an active war zone.
And for the rest, I don't really care that Lonerbox got a clown nose. Sorry.
Who those dead people are matters a whole lot regardless of whether the number in totality is bigger or smaller than reported. War is notoriously bad for knowing exact numbers as we can see in the fog of war in Ukraine. Even in past wars with lots time, we tend to work in ranges.
What you are not willing to engage with is the entire number dead does not matter nearly so much as the percentage of the dead who are fighters. The higher that number is represented by fighters, the better. Obviously. And there has been some consistently bad reporting that under counts fighters. But that is not something you care about?
On September 30 2024 00:32 Falling wrote: I don't get to do this. Okay.
You don't really care for the rest. I can see.
Who those dead people are matters a whole lot regardless of whether the number in totality is bigger or smaller than reported. War is notoriously bad for knowing exact numbers as we can see in the fog of war in Ukraine. Even in past wars with lots time, we tend to work in ranges.
What you are not willing to engage with is the entire number dead does not matter nearly so much as the percentage of the dead who are fighters. The higher that number is represented by fighters, the better. Obviously. And there has been some consistently bad reporting that under counts fighters. But that is not something you care about?
Is 150000 dead civilians and 30000 dead hamas fighters 'better' or 'worse' than 40000 dead civilians and 7000 dead hamas fighters? Not sure I'm willing to agree that it's better, tbh, but your highlighted sentence makes it sound like you think so. (But yes if the total number is 45k then 15k hamas fighters is a lot better than 7k, obviously.)
On September 30 2024 00:32 Falling wrote: I don't get to do this. Okay.
You don't really care for the rest. I can see.
Who those dead people are matters a whole lot whether that number in totality are under or over-reported. War is notoriously bad for knowing exact numbers as we can see in the fog of war in Ukraine. Even in past wars with lots time, we tend of ranges.
What you are not willing to engage with is the entire number dead does not matter nearly so much as the percentage of the dead who are fighters. The higher that number is represented by fighters, the better. Obviously. And there has been some consistently bad reporting that under counts fighters. But that is not something you care about?
You're right actually, you do get to do this, but you shouldn't; that is different from not getting to do this.
And you're right, I'm not really willing to engage with how many of the dead are fighters or not, I don't have a good sense of that and I don't like to speak about stuff I don't have a good sense of. Since the death toll is in all likelihood much larger than what we know, there's no way to make an acceptable percentage. BE also raised an interesting point in his video: it is standard in wars for men to die in much larger numbers than women, because men tend to have activities that are much higher risk than women: fighting, but also looking for the dead, trying to find survivors to help, and so on: actually be on the field. So in the war that he's taking as an exemple (Syria, I believe?), 20% of the dead were women. Here we have 56%, which is a lot higher. So that's already a huge problem here, as you would need Israel to at the same time be very particular in the men they kill, very high non-civilian success rate, and very non-particular in their overall killing, so much so that it skews the percentage that hard. So there's something that doesn't fit, and as far as I can see there are only two ways to resolve this discrepancy: either you believe that just about everyone in Gaza is a terrorist, which Israeli officials keep being quoted as saying they believe, or the numbers must be wrong in a major way. Or both, really.
Worth pointing out also that it would be very standard for numbers of fighters to be wrong in a major way, this happens a lot in conflicts. Soldiers don't spend a lot of time trying to verify whether they made good kills or not. There's this video from Vietnam where a soldier shot a Vietnamese guy and reported him as a killed Vietcong, and the official asks him "How do you know he was a Vietcong?" and he answers "Because I shot him" and that's amusing.
On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote: Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now.
Whether or not you believe Hezbollah's intention or promise that "we will stop firing once you have a ceasefire in Gaza", Israel has also been doing the same to Hezbollah for the same duration, and from what I've read, far more damage output. Im certainly not a tankie or a far left progressive like Emma Vigeland who says "Houthis and Hezbollah are heroes and the resistance", but nothing justifies a 300-1 kill ratio for civilian to terrorist. or 50-1 in terms of confirmed kills in Gaza.
"A Waco a day, the IDF way"
Please provide evidence for that 300-1 kill ratio. Hamas and the Gazan ministry of health don't distinguish between civilian and militant casualties for propaganda reasons. Using confirmed kills is literally Hamas propaganda.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036 sure lets just go with children, and in June Nearly 15,000 children have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war, the UN says. Hamas killed 800 civilians on Oct 7, so even just children to total civilians is 18-1. Is that propaganda or just facts? And whats worse at this point, Israel's propaganda or Hamas? Which one brings more terror on the region and covers up for it? I think its clear the current government Israel and Hamas should be treated like we do Russia and Putin.
Israel literally doesnt allow journalists into Gaza to see the total death toll, right now its at 45,000, but the real number is likely 2-3x higher.
Your initial claim is that there's a 50-1 civilian to terrorist ratio. You have no evidence to back it up so now you're changing your argument to civilians killed in Israel relative to civilians killed in Gaza.
For Lebanon you don't even read your own source. The strikes were not for one person:
Analysts have called it the largest campaign of Israeli aerial strikes against Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militia, since the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war. .... The Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Israeli forces struck 1,300 Hezbollah targets and destroyed cruise missiles, short-range rockets, attack drones and other weaponry.
Strikes damaged several buildings inside populated areas in Lebanon's south as well as farther east in the country's Bekaa Valley, but at least one landed some 80 miles north of the border near the city of Byblos, according to Lebanon's state-run broadcaster. ... On Friday, an airstrike over the Lebanese capital city, Beirut, killed at least 50 Hezbollah fighters and civilians, including children. Israel's military said that the strike had targeted a senior Hezbollah commander.
On September 30 2024 00:32 Falling wrote: I don't get to do this. Okay.
You don't really care for the rest. I can see.
Who those dead people are matters a whole lot regardless of whether the number in totality is bigger or smaller than reported. War is notoriously bad for knowing exact numbers as we can see in the fog of war in Ukraine. Even in past wars with lots time, we tend to work in ranges.
What you are not willing to engage with is the entire number dead does not matter nearly so much as the percentage of the dead who are fighters. The higher that number is represented by fighters, the better. Obviously. And there has been some consistently bad reporting that under counts fighters. But that is not something you care about?
Is 150000 dead civilians and 30000 dead hamas fighters 'better' or 'worse' than 40000 dead civilians and 7000 dead hamas fighters? Not sure I'm willing to agree that it's better, tbh, but your highlighted sentence makes it sound like you think so. (But yes if the total number is 45k then 15k hamas fighters is a lot better than 7k, obviously.)
Well, in either of the first two cases, the ratio feels high whether it's a small or a high number. Whereas 15K out of 45K for fighters embedded within the civilian population is at least somewhat more palatable.
I'm not sure that I'm making an absolute claim that the ratio is the only thing that matters, but it certainly gives a better indicator of what is going on (Genocide or casualties of war.) For instance, if we're looking at German military deaths in WW2, it's something like 4.5m and civilian deaths via military war around 2m, and that's with the Allies actively bombing German cities. Whereas Russia lost maybe 6.7m military and 4m civilians via military and another 3m to famine. The Russian civilian losses are higher not only in absolute terms, but also relative to the military deaths. That's suspicious and aligns with the Nazi lebensraum policy which would like to see the lands emptied of Slavs. (I wonder to, on the German civilian losses, what the balance was east vs west front, considering Russian retaliation for what the Nazis inflicted on their population.)
But then something like the pager/walkie talkie attack against Hezbollah, while there are some very tragic stories of two (I think) young girls who were killed, the fact that 99% of the attacks were against Hezbollah operatives (and even if that one poor girl, it was a Hezbollah house, it was just that she was giving it to her dad when it went off) tells me this is a specific attack against the Hezbollah organization and not a generalized attack against Lebanon civilians. So a 99:1 attack, in that specific case, it's hard to reasonably imagine a better ratio.
Don't know if you're writing an answer for me right now but I would certainly agree that the pager/walkie talkie attack was targeted against Hezbollah, yes.
I see bodycounts are back in fashion. These are easy to count for the sake of internet arguments but realistically matter little at this point. Especially compared to strategic objectives of the war. We know Israel already achieved its objectives in Gaza, now we get to see if same is true for Lebanon.
What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way.
On September 30 2024 10:19 Biff The Understudy wrote: What’s for certain is that Israel has successfully created the next generation of kids who will grow up having seen a brother, a father, a grand father or an uncle murdered by Tsahal and hating Israel enough to one day put an explosive belt around their waists. Whatever they think their objectives are, they have pushed away all perspective of living in peace for at the very least one generation.
The statistics about body counts and whether that’s better or worse than Grozny are beyond obscene, by the way.
This just sounds wrong because you wouldn't say it about Ukrainians, and it certainly didn't happen to the Japanese after ww2 or many other places after awful bombing campaigns. It seems that far more important than the how terrible the enemy was, or what horrible things happened, but the leadership that puts back society together.
If it is Iran you are almost certainly right, ISIS the same. Lets hope Lebanon and Palestinians get something better, they certainly deserve it.
EPT
