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On September 28 2024 04:06 RvB wrote:Nasrallah was targeted in an airstrike. A lot is still unclear but Israel is increasingly confident that they've killed him. If you look at the pictures from the aftermath he's almost certainly dead if he was there. Show nested quote +Israel’s Channel 12 news reports the assessment in Israel is that Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah was killed in tonight’s IDF strike on the terror group’s underground HQ in Beirut.
Its on-screen headline reads, “The assessment in Israel: Nasrallah is eliminated.” A second major Israeli TV station, Channel 13, is slightly more cautious, stating, “Cautious optimism in Israel: The strike on Nasrallah succeeded.” www.timesofisrael.com
Now that's interesting as you'd expect they normally would start the bombing with him.
That they waited for Bibi's UN speech likely means they are testing the limits of US support.
Seems the only ones found so far is starving Gaza and bombing Iran.
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On September 28 2024 14:48 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 04:06 RvB wrote:Nasrallah was targeted in an airstrike. A lot is still unclear but Israel is increasingly confident that they've killed him. If you look at the pictures from the aftermath he's almost certainly dead if he was there. Israel’s Channel 12 news reports the assessment in Israel is that Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah was killed in tonight’s IDF strike on the terror group’s underground HQ in Beirut.
Its on-screen headline reads, “The assessment in Israel: Nasrallah is eliminated.” A second major Israeli TV station, Channel 13, is slightly more cautious, stating, “Cautious optimism in Israel: The strike on Nasrallah succeeded.” www.timesofisrael.com Now that's interesting as you'd expect they normally would start the bombing with him. That they waited for Bibi's UN speech likely means they are testing the limits of US support. Seems the only ones found so far is starving Gaza and bombing Iran.
Starving Gazans? Again with these unsubstantiated claims that have no basis in reality.
Like the rest of the people who make this claim, you probably don't want to talk about
- how much aid has entered Gaza
- how the aid that has entered Gaza fares against the calculated needs of the region
- how many trucks were prohibited from entering (less than 2%) and why
- how Palestinians report that Hamas is stealing these humanitarian goods and re-selling them at inflated prices at the black market
- how they beat and torture civilians who want to get a share of these humanitarian goods
- the full ware houses Hamas has because of their stealing, "strict enforcement" and that they run out of place to store the stolen goods, as there is so much of it
- as such, the issue is not provision, but distribution inside Gaza (also remember the 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom)
And please, don't start with the utterly irrelevant "if Israel didn't attack, there'd be no need for humanitarian aid", if you aren't prepared to say that Israel should have not done anything to free the hostages as well as invite more attacks like October 7th or providing another realistic approach other than counter-invasion.
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Not sure what your point is as I already said Israel was stopped from starving Gaza.
US has some pretenses to keep up and clearly didn't allow it to go as far as was intended.
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On September 28 2024 15:44 pmp10 wrote:
Not sure what your point is as I already said Israel was stopped from starving Gaza.
US has some pretenses to keep up and clearly didn't allow it to go as far as was intended.
My point is that Israel never starved Gazans. If that was not made clear from my last post, I don't know how much more I need to break the points I made down, to make them understandable to you.
Why do you think Israel wanted to starve Gazans? How do you arrive at this conclusion?
EDIT:
Some sources claim that Nasrallah survived:
"A source close to Hezbollah told Reuters Nasrallah was alive. Iran's Tasnim news agency also reported he was safe. A senior Iranian security official told Reuters Tehran was checking his status. Hezbollah's media office said that there was no truth to any statements surrounding the Israeli strikes, but did not say anything about the fate of the group's leader."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-continue-ceasefire-discussions-lebanon-netanyahu-says-2024-09-27/
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On September 28 2024 10:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption?
Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments.
There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that. Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke. Well this aged like milk in a hot car.
Still waiting for you to quote me saying Hamas aren't vile terrorists, mate.
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On September 28 2024 15:53 PremoBeats wrote:EDIT: Some sources claim that Nasrallah survived: "A source close to Hezbollah told Reuters Nasrallah was alive. Iran's Tasnim news agency also reported he was safe. A senior Iranian security official told Reuters Tehran was checking his status. Hezbollah's media office said that there was no truth to any statements surrounding the Israeli strikes, but did not say anything about the fate of the group's leader." https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-continue-ceasefire-discussions-lebanon-netanyahu-says-2024-09-27/
There's a decent chance that he's dead, you would expect him to have been on TV by now if he wasn't.
But hey, if he's not dead at least they killed a bunch of Arabs so it's not all in vain
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On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
In general the other side mostly never or only extremely superficially talks about the actual facts
The actual fact is Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land, and the amount of land they occupy has been growing every year for the past several decades, and until they stop doing that, any talk about 'self defense' or 'security' is utter bullshit.
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
Basically: "Israel is wrong, no matter what it does"
Until they stop illegally occupying Palestinian land, pretty much, yeah.
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
When asked as to what Israel actually should do in the face of constant rocket attacks, October 7th or other lines that are crossed regularly by the opposing sides, you only get insufficient answers
They could stop illegally occupying Palestinian land, for starters.
What should Palestinians do in the face of Israel's ever growing occupation of their land and demolishment of their property and murder / maiming of their children?
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
I have not seen a single government that didn’t criticize Israel on several occasions since October 7th. Western Media, especially the left leaning ones which are the far majority in the States for example, are all over Israel every time something goes wrong. Simply check ground news’ coverage.
Maybe we should try something other than criticizing them in the Western media, since that doesn't seem to deter them from illegally occupying Palestinian land.
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
What you guys fail to realize in my opinion, is that in the grand scheme of things, Israel has done more than other warring factions to prevent civilian casualties. Israel warned the civilians before attacking (same in Lebanon now), endangering their own troops with every passing minute.
Yet the casualties are always massively skewed towards Palestine & others civilians. Ah right, it's because Hamas uses human shields so Israel has no choice but to blast them all to bits. My bad.
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
Israel is actively supporting the Gazans with aid, water and electricity. It is repairing the damages done to water pipes by Hamas.
They're also the reason Gazans need to be supplied with aid, water, and electricity in the first place. I guess slaves should say thanks to their masters for not just letting them starve to death?
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On September 28 2024 15:53 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 15:44 pmp10 wrote:
Not sure what your point is as I already said Israel was stopped from starving Gaza.
US has some pretenses to keep up and clearly didn't allow it to go as far as was intended. My point is that Israel never starved Gazans. If that was not made clear from my last post, I don't know how much more I need to break the points I made down, to make them understandable to you.
I think you are saying that Israel was never trying to starve Gaza in opposition to US wishes.
We don't even need to look at aid trucks to disprove that.
A pier worth 100+ milion $ had to be build exactly because that was happening at the time.
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United States42839 Posts
On September 28 2024 16:51 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 10:19 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption?
Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments.
There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that. On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke. Well this aged like milk in a hot car. Still waiting for you to quote me saying Hamas aren't vile terrorists, mate.
You identified Israel as the villain in the Israel Hamas conflict. I mean I guess maybe you think they’re terrorists but like that about them? I don’t know, they’re your words.
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On September 28 2024 18:22 Nebuchad wrote:There's a decent chance that he's dead, you would expect him to have been on TV by now if he wasn't. But hey, if he's not dead at least they killed a bunch of Arabs so it's not all in vain
Interesting to see the intention of Israel growing ever more vast. First it was Palestinians, then it was Muslims and now we arrived at Arabs. It probably won't be long till your narrative mentions all non-Jews.
But yeah, I guess Israel really needed to let out some pressure in regards to killing Arabs, after they don't kill them in their own country and appoint them such high profile positions that Arabs are even able to put former Israeli PMs behind bars. Oh, these damn Arab hating Jews!
On September 28 2024 19:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
In general the other side mostly never or only extremely superficially talks about the actual facts
The actual fact is Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land, and the amount of land they occupy has been growing every year for the past several decades, and until they stop doing that, any talk about 'self defense' or 'security' is utter bullshit. Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
Basically: "Israel is wrong, no matter what it does"
Until they stop illegally occupying Palestinian land, pretty much, yeah. Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
When asked as to what Israel actually should do in the face of constant rocket attacks, October 7th or other lines that are crossed regularly by the opposing sides, you only get insufficient answers
They could stop illegally occupying Palestinian land, for starters. What should Palestinians do in the face of Israel's ever growing occupation of their land and demolishment of their property and murder / maiming of their children? Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
I have not seen a single government that didn’t criticize Israel on several occasions since October 7th. Western Media, especially the left leaning ones which are the far majority in the States for example, are all over Israel every time something goes wrong. Simply check ground news’ coverage.
Maybe we should try something other than criticizing them in the Western media, since that doesn't seem to deter them from illegally occupying Palestinian land. Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
What you guys fail to realize in my opinion, is that in the grand scheme of things, Israel has done more than other warring factions to prevent civilian casualties. Israel warned the civilians before attacking (same in Lebanon now), endangering their own troops with every passing minute.
Yet the casualties are always massively skewed towards Palestine & others civilians. Ah right, it's because Hamas uses human shields so Israel has no choice but to blast them all to bits. My bad. Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Blah blah blah
Israel is actively supporting the Gazans with aid, water and electricity. It is repairing the damages done to water pipes by Hamas.
They're also the reason Gazans need to be supplied with aid, water, and electricity in the first place. I guess slaves should say thanks to their masters for not just letting them starve to death?
You base your argument around illegal occupation, do I get that right?
If that is the case, I will do the same I did with Nebuchad. I don't really agree that what is occurring is in fact an illegal occupation, but I will accept it as a discussion premise, as it is broadly international consensus despite uti possidetis juris.
Is it ok in your opinion, to react to illegal occupation with the targeted slaughter, rape and hostage taking of civilians - Jewish and international ones?
Do you accept that Israel's enemies are not only asking for the stopping of this illegal occupation, but the eradication of Israel in whole?
Speaking of which: Do you accept Israel as a country? Do you accept its right to exist?
And in regards to the newest development in Lebanon, as there was no occupation: Do you accept that Israel is only reacting to the continued strikes after October 7th that Hezbollah has been delivering - without being targeted first - almost daily for nearly a year?
On September 28 2024 20:08 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 15:53 PremoBeats wrote:On September 28 2024 15:44 pmp10 wrote:
Not sure what your point is as I already said Israel was stopped from starving Gaza.
US has some pretenses to keep up and clearly didn't allow it to go as far as was intended. My point is that Israel never starved Gazans. If that was not made clear from my last post, I don't know how much more I need to break the points I made down, to make them understandable to you. I think you are saying that Israel was never trying to starve Gaza in opposition to US wishes. We don't even need to look at aid trucks to disprove that. A pier worth 100+ milion $ had to be build exactly because that was happening at the time.
No, I am saying that enough food has entered Gaza to feed the population, thus there never was an intention by Israel to starve anyone. The problem is the distribution inside Gaza, as Hamas is stealing all the aid.
This reality is supported by the facts I pointed out above:
- enough aid has entered Gaza based on the calculated needs of the region and what went through the Israeli checkpoints
- only a small portion of trucks were prohibited from entering (less than 2%)
- Palestinians reported that Hamas is stealing these humanitarian goods and re-selling them at inflated prices at the black market
- Hamas beats and tortures civilians who want to get a share of these humanitarian goods
- The ware houses Hamas has are bursting because of their stealing, "strict enforcement" and they run out of place to store the stolen goods, as there is so much of it
Because of these facts, the issue is not provision, but distribution inside Gaza (also remember the 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom).
Hence it is utterly ridiculous to claim that Israel wanted to starve Gazans.
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On September 28 2024 20:38 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 18:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 28 2024 15:53 PremoBeats wrote:EDIT: Some sources claim that Nasrallah survived: "A source close to Hezbollah told Reuters Nasrallah was alive. Iran's Tasnim news agency also reported he was safe. A senior Iranian security official told Reuters Tehran was checking his status. Hezbollah's media office said that there was no truth to any statements surrounding the Israeli strikes, but did not say anything about the fate of the group's leader." https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-continue-ceasefire-discussions-lebanon-netanyahu-says-2024-09-27/ There's a decent chance that he's dead, you would expect him to have been on TV by now if he wasn't. But hey, if he's not dead at least they killed a bunch of Arabs so it's not all in vain Interesting to see the intention of Israel growing ever more vast. First it was Palestinians, then it was Muslims and now we arrived at Arabs. It probably won't be long till your narrative mentions all non-Jews. But yeah, I guess Israel really needed to let out some pressure in regards to killing Arabs, after they don't kill them in their own country and appoint them such high profile positions that Arabs are even able to put former Israeli PMs behind bars. Oh, these damn Arab hating Jews!
You know that you're not coming back from this right? Right now you're having fun writing bullshit and trolling but there isn't a future where you're forgiven for this shit, everyone will remember and when you try and pretend that there was no way for you to know what you were defending nobody will buy it. Unless you only talk like this online and nobody in your life knows what you're doing, which to be fair is quite likely.
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Great news. Seems like the pager attack wasn't done out of the blue after all - like some here claimed.
I think these news were not posted here so far:
Ahmed Mohammed Fahd one of Hamas' leaders in southern Syria was killed after organizing rocket strikes on multiple accounts.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byzlafsar
On September 28 2024 20:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 20:38 PremoBeats wrote:On September 28 2024 18:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 28 2024 15:53 PremoBeats wrote:EDIT: Some sources claim that Nasrallah survived: "A source close to Hezbollah told Reuters Nasrallah was alive. Iran's Tasnim news agency also reported he was safe. A senior Iranian security official told Reuters Tehran was checking his status. Hezbollah's media office said that there was no truth to any statements surrounding the Israeli strikes, but did not say anything about the fate of the group's leader." https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-continue-ceasefire-discussions-lebanon-netanyahu-says-2024-09-27/ There's a decent chance that he's dead, you would expect him to have been on TV by now if he wasn't. But hey, if he's not dead at least they killed a bunch of Arabs so it's not all in vain Interesting to see the intention of Israel growing ever more vast. First it was Palestinians, then it was Muslims and now we arrived at Arabs. It probably won't be long till your narrative mentions all non-Jews. But yeah, I guess Israel really needed to let out some pressure in regards to killing Arabs, after they don't kill them in their own country and appoint them such high profile positions that Arabs are even able to put former Israeli PMs behind bars. Oh, these damn Arab hating Jews! You know that you're not coming back from this right? Right now you're having fun writing bullshit and trolling but there isn't a future where you're forgiven for this shit, everyone will remember and when you try and pretend that there was no way for you to know what you were defending nobody will buy it. Unless you only talk like this online and nobody in your life knows what you're doing, which to be fair is quite likely.
What the hell are you even talking about? I was making fun of your narrative, lol
I have absolutely no worries with my position, as I am not the one being constantly under the influence of cognitive dissonance while having to try my hardest to ignore the actual numbers and facts surrounding this topic.
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On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Basically: "Israel is wrong, no matter what it does"
On September 28 2024 20:38 PremoBeats wrote:
I don't really agree that what is occurring is in fact an illegal occupation
So Israel is right, no matter what it does?
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Is it ok in your opinion, to react to illegal occupation with the targeted slaughter, rape and hostage taking of civilians - Jewish and international ones?
No.
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Do you accept that Israel's enemies are not only asking for the stopping of this illegal occupation, but the eradication of Israel in whole?
I don't really care.
On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Speaking of which: Do you accept Israel as a country? Do you accept its right to exist?
Sure, why not.
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On September 28 2024 20:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 16:51 Salazarz wrote:On September 28 2024 10:19 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption?
Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments.
There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that. On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke. Well this aged like milk in a hot car. Still waiting for you to quote me saying Hamas aren't vile terrorists, mate. You identified Israel as the villain in the Israel Hamas conflict. I mean I guess maybe you think they’re terrorists but like that about them? I don’t know, they’re your words.
Could you quote my words stating that I like anything about Hamas? You keep talking about 'my words' but all I'm seeing are shitty strawmen that don't represent my position in any way whatsoever.
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On September 28 2024 21:26 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 20:22 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2024 16:51 Salazarz wrote:On September 28 2024 10:19 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption?
Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments.
There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that. On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind.
If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan.
If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke. Well this aged like milk in a hot car. Still waiting for you to quote me saying Hamas aren't vile terrorists, mate. You identified Israel as the villain in the Israel Hamas conflict. I mean I guess maybe you think they’re terrorists but like that about them? I don’t know, they’re your words. Could you quote my words stating that I like anything about Hamas? You keep talking about 'my words' but all I'm seeing are shitty strawmen that don't represent my position in any way whatsoever.
He'll never stop. Personally I recommend completely ignoring him. My mental state while reading tl.net has improved quite significantly since I started doing that.
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On September 28 2024 21:24 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Basically: "Israel is wrong, no matter what it does"
Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 20:38 PremoBeats wrote:
I don't really agree that what is occurring is in fact an illegal occupation
So Israel is right, no matter what it does? Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Is it ok in your opinion, to react to illegal occupation with the targeted slaughter, rape and hostage taking of civilians - Jewish and international ones?
No. Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Do you accept that Israel's enemies are not only asking for the stopping of this illegal occupation, but the eradication of Israel in whole?
I don't really care. Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
Speaking of which: Do you accept Israel as a country? Do you accept its right to exist?
Sure, why not.
No, Israel is not right no matter what it does. I am simply looking at the legality of the occupation under the aspects of uti possidetis juris. But as I said: I accept the premise of illegal occupation.
What should Israel have done after October 7th?
Abort the occupation and hope that Hamas gives back the hostages, showing weakness in front of the whole world and especially Hezbollah which has been attacking Israel non stop since nearly a whole year almost daily?
I also think it is important to mention that Hamas is denying the existence of Israel. Because even if the occupation ended, that is not where the goal of Hamas ends. Hence I think that focusing on the occupation is irrelevant. I never understood this argument... what do you think will happen when the occupation ends? Hamas will simply say "all good" and that's it?
It would only unnecessarily re-strengthen Hamas' grip in the area in my opinion. They will rebuild their tunnel-system, arm themselves to the teeth with no border control and the cycle will never end.
Hence I proposed a solution.
- De-Settlement of the complete West Bank by Israel, similar to the uni-lateral move in 2005 in Gaza
- Complete de-militarization of Gaza and the West Bank
- Acceptance by Gazan and West Bank authorities of Israel as a state (as we don't need another country denying its existence)
- Supervision of Egypt in Gaza and Jordan in the West Bank in regards to terrorist threats inside the then proclaimed Palestine
- Supervision of educational content by Egypt in Gaza and Jordan in the West Bank
- Israeli financed and supervised infrastructural projects for schools, hospitals, electricity, water and sewage to show good will as well as to re-pay the historical debt of the Nakba
That still leaves many unsolved issues like East Jerusalem, the Temple Mount, Hebron, etc., but these points are necessary from my estimation.
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Hezbollah should cut their losses and sue for peace. They've lost all of their high command in a week. Israel is much better prepared for this conflict than anyone expected.
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On September 28 2024 21:45 RvB wrote:Hezbollah should cut their losses and sue for peace. They've lost all of their high command in a week. Israel is much better prepared than anyone expected for this conflict.
Seems unlikely.
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EPT
