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On September 27 2024 03:05 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 02:55 Billyboy wrote:On September 27 2024 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 02:45 Billyboy wrote:On September 27 2024 02:33 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 02:07 Billyboy wrote:On September 27 2024 02:00 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 01:57 Billyboy wrote:On September 27 2024 01:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 01:35 Billyboy wrote:
Human shields is a real term and it does not completely absolve anyone. For example if a bank robber took 40 hostages and stood behind them he would be using them as human shields. If the police used a rocket to kill the robber and the 40 hostages, no one would be like, "well they used human shields so what could the police do". Why not? Darn, I thought it was possible to have a non bad faith discussion with you. What are you talking about lol, I'm in good faith wondering why you think people wouldn't say that, what's the reason according to you? Cause to me this looks like a situation that is very similar to what's happening and people are definitely saying that, like that's almost a direct quote from Netanyahu talking to Congress to roaring applause. Because you obviously know there is a difference between the two examples I stated, and you ignored the whole argument to pull out the one part out of context that you thought you would win with and I'm not interested in having the type of conversation where the goal is winning. That is your thing and you have plenty of people to do it with. So if you would like to put forth some effort and explain your reasoning I'm happy to do the same, but if not I'm out. Or you want to turn a complex situation into something black and white by ignoring any facts that add complexity, which is equally uninteresting. I definitely do want to do that yes, the complexity of this situation is almost entirely manufactured, it's very a simple situation. But that's okay we don't have to talk, have a nice day. Heck I had no idea, mind solving it for me? Solving it is difficult, you said black and white which means you were talking about morality. Morally it's very simple. How so? Is is morally wrong to destroy evil? It's a little weird how you're suddenly interested in having a conversation with me because I think this is morally simple, two posts ago you said the opposite. As for my position, I got it from Michael Brooks and he was a much better man than me, here's a link
I mean you dropped a pretty big bomb about it being simple, I don't know that I have read that. My issue was not that you are uninteresting or unintelligent it was that you chose to put in no effort and choose to paint people as evil or disingenuous if they don't agree with your opinions. I'm not in a place where I can watch a video with volume, depending on length I may end up watching it.
Edit: it was much shorter than I thought and went to the bathroom to watch. Great take on the time, nuanced actually. Sadly very unrelated to what we are talking about now. I went to try to find out what he thought now, but was saddened to hear that he passed.
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On September 27 2024 01:08 KwarK wrote:
But it literally is the fault of Hamas for using them as human shields. The fact that it is repeated doesn’t make it false. If I take a child hostage in my truck and then start ploughing it into crowds then how many pedestrians should I be allowed to kill before someone stops the truck? And who is to blame for any harm to that child?
Hamas use Palestinians as hostages as part of a deliberate policy of putting Israel in a situation in which the Palestinian hostages die. They’re deliberately evil. People place the blame on Hamas because Hamas is to blame.
And of course we feel bad for the Palestinians, nobody has suffered more from Hamas than them. But we don’t mistake the villain in this story.
Except Israel isn't an innocent bystander but rather a hostile occupying force and the casualties are massively skewed towards Palestinians but other than that, sure, great analogy!
Israel uses Hamas terrorism as part of a deliberate policy to justify Israel's continued occupation, colonization, and apartheid policies. They're deliberately evil. People should place the blame on Israel because Israel is to blame.
And of course we feel bad for the Israeli civilians, especially the ones who don't support the entirely unnecessary slaughter and dehumanization of Palestinians, some of them have suffered from terrorism. But we don't mistake the villain in this story.
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A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me).
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On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me).
Literally everyone in this thread knows that Hamas, Hezbollah, whatever terrorist groups are terrible. There isn't a single person here arguing otherwise. No Western government (at least to my knowledge) gives support to those groups, openly or otherwise. They're widely condemned and placed under sanctions wherever possible.
Israel, on the other hand, is generally painted as the 'victim' in this conflict; media and governments all around the world keep insisting that they 'must defend themselves' -- despite the fact that they are an aggressor and an occupier, not to mention the utter brutality they have shown time and time again in this conflict. They've been killing and maiming Palestinians for decades with no repercussions, instead, they get donations, tech transfers, intelligence and whatever other support necessary.
Nobody here is saying that we should all cozy up to Hamas and give them guns to kill Jews better. But maybe we should stop excusing the countless atrocities Israel is committing in the name of 'self defense' while simultaneously occupying and ethnically cleansing land that isn't theirs.
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United States42839 Posts
On September 27 2024 17:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me). Literally everyone in this thread knows that Hamas, Hezbollah, whatever terrorist groups are terrible. There isn't a single person here arguing otherwise.
In your previous post you argued otherwise and claimed that out of Israel and Hamas terrorists it was Israel who was the evil party.
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On September 27 2024 18:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 17:42 Salazarz wrote:On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me). Literally everyone in this thread knows that Hamas, Hezbollah, whatever terrorist groups are terrible. There isn't a single person here arguing otherwise. In your previous post you argued otherwise and claimed that out of Israel and Hamas terrorists it was Israel who was the evil party.
Could you quote me arguing that Hamas is not an evil terrorist organization?
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On September 27 2024 01:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 01:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 01:10 KwarK wrote:
Yeah but they are deliberately launching missiles from schools. October 7 also changed the scenario a lot. There was some kind of coexistence with Hamas happening before then. Hamas unilaterally ended that with their atrocity. Wouldn't you agree that a better analogy than the shit you posted in the last post would be, the guy kidnapping the kid goes into a crowd, and you're in your car trying to get him and save the kid, so you accelerate, plowing into the crowd, attempting to hit the guy with the kid? No? Wouldn’t you agree that Hitler was right? I feel like you should though. It's a much better analogy. See in the scenario that you used, pretending to believe that it was a good analogy, you're killing one person to save a crowd of thousands. Meanwhile in the real world, as you used to know in 2021, Israel kills way more people than Hamas does, so I feel like your analogy should reflect that. The guy goes into the crowd wanting to shield himself from your car, and you plow into the crowd, killing numerous civilians, in an attempt to stop the evil man and save one person. The logical conclusion there is if the terrorists put enough hostages in their truck then at a certain point you think they should just be allowed to drive into crowds. They just need to hit that number. Hamas came to the exact same conclusion as you did. That's why they operate the way they do.
Prolly Khamas who used her as a human shield.
https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-of-hind-rajab
Israel is doing indiscriminate bombing and use the justification of "Khamas" HQ.
But well, the discussion is useless, you're pro genocide anyway, after all, negationnists rarely won't say the nazi wanted to genocide the jew either, fortunatly, Israeli scholars and politicians are way less ambiguous.
Meanwhile, next to Tyr, the building who saw a friend (christian btw but as a israeli minister says, lebanon will be annihlated) grew up got bombed by Israel. she is so freaking grateful to the zionists, like she praises them all the time for the murders of the people around her, at least that what the media will come with and you will eat because that's what you want to believe anyway
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On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me).
Nobody in this thread has ever disputed that Hamas and Iran are committed to terrorism. Literally not one person.
I don't know why you decided to fabricate a hypocrisy. My advice for you would be to take notes on the things people have and haven't said, and if there's anything you're unsure about, just ask people before you decide to accuse them.
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On September 27 2024 21:45 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me). Nobody in this thread has ever disputed that Hamas and Iran are committed to terrorism. Literally not one person. I don't know why you decided to fabricate a hypocrisy. My advice for you would be to take notes on the things people have and haven't said, and if there's anything you're unsure about, just ask people before you decide to accuse them.
To be fair he's only been here since yesterday, you can't expect him to have read the whole thread.
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On September 27 2024 22:16 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 21:45 Magic Powers wrote:On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me). Nobody in this thread has ever disputed that Hamas and Iran are committed to terrorism. Literally not one person. I don't know why you decided to fabricate a hypocrisy. My advice for you would be to take notes on the things people have and haven't said, and if there's anything you're unsure about, just ask people before you decide to accuse them. To be fair he's only been here since yesterday, you can't expect him to have read the whole thread.
KwarK's been here from the start and still can't grasp that I can actually both condemn Hamas terrorism and not be okay with Israel's wholesale slaughter of civilians and colonization efforts at the same time, so who can blame the new guy really!
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You guys still acting like you don't know what actual wholesale slaughter/genocide would look like is also very healthy for the tread and any discussion. I'm sure your making a diffrence from your enlightened high horses.
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I will be fair to people who return the favor. Be fair and expect fairness. Be unfair, then don't expect anything.
I also don't think a new user has the right to make stuff up just because they're new. Ignorance is not an excuse. First and foremost they're in a position to learn, not to throw around accusations right out of the gate. It's an important lesson in life.
News: Israel once again engages in attacking health workers and facilities. I'm sure these were all being used as "human shields" (as they literally always are).
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas-gaza-war-latest-sky-news-live-blog-12978800?postid=8338945#liveblog-body
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On September 27 2024 22:43 Velr wrote:
You guys still acting like you don't know what actual wholesale slaughter/genocide would look like is also very healthy for the tread and any discussion. I'm sure your making a diffrence from your enlightened high horses.
I know exactly what slaughter/genocide looks like. We're looking at it right now. We've been looking at it for almost an entire year.
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On September 27 2024 17:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me). Literally everyone in this thread knows that Hamas, Hezbollah, whatever terrorist groups are terrible. There isn't a single person here arguing otherwise. No Western government (at least to my knowledge) gives support to those groups, openly or otherwise. They're widely condemned and placed under sanctions wherever possible. Israel, on the other hand, is generally painted as the 'victim' in this conflict; media and governments all around the world keep insisting that they 'must defend themselves' -- despite the fact that they are an aggressor and an occupier, not to mention the utter brutality they have shown time and time again in this conflict. They've been killing and maiming Palestinians for decades with no repercussions, instead, they get donations, tech transfers, intelligence and whatever other support necessary. Nobody here is saying that we should all cozy up to Hamas and give them guns to kill Jews better. But maybe we should stop excusing the countless atrocities Israel is committing in the name of 'self defense' while simultaneously occupying and ethnically cleansing land that isn't theirs.
This post is kind of my point. No one in this thread is in these Western governments or writers of the papers that paint Israel as victims of everything. And yet anytime anyone posts anything about how bad one of the Iranian funded terrorist groups is awful they instantly get painted as some kind of monster and get bombarded with Israel related whataboutism.
You can think that Israel is doing awful things in Palestine and think that Hamas is awful or even worse at the same time. I know it is possible because I believe this. No need for the mob to attack every person who does not meet the bar of hating Israel enough. It ends any interesting conversations.
Maybe you can point to a post of yours where you get into the Hamas and Iran problem.
Edit: I should also add that when I see some posts that say how bad Hamas is, they also later speak of them as freedom fighters who are doing terrible things for a greater purpose or necessary because of how evil Israel. I could imagine a sensible argument for that with the PLA and what they have done, but when it comes to Hamas or any of Irans armies it is just completely false.
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Nasrallah was targeted in an airstrike. A lot is still unclear but Israel is increasingly confident that they've killed him. If you look at the pictures from the aftermath he's almost certainly dead if he was there.
Israel’s Channel 12 news reports the assessment in Israel is that Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah was killed in tonight’s IDF strike on the terror group’s underground HQ in Beirut.
Its on-screen headline reads, “The assessment in Israel: Nasrallah is eliminated.” A second major Israeli TV station, Channel 13, is slightly more cautious, stating, “Cautious optimism in Israel: The strike on Nasrallah succeeded.”
www.timesofisrael.com
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These early images make it appear very unlikely Nasrallah survived, but he's such an important figure for Iran that I imagine he's given some extremely special security measures. Israel following up right after with this huge strike on the weapons storage makes me feel like they are basically going for the throat because they want everyone in Lebanon to know Hezbollah has no future.
The symbolic value of actually killing Nasrallah is huge. It signals Hezbollah is a sinking ship Israel does not fear Iran.
Even trying to kill Nasrallah is probably the boldest move Israel can make short of directly striking Iranian officials within Iran. I think it is well understood among all the relevant players that Hezbollah is the IRGC's pride and joy. Nasrallah's death will signify the end of Iran's rotten little Jihad network.
For the sake of throwing my bet into the pile, I think Nasrallah survived the strike but he won't be able to escape Lebanon and will ultimately end up killed in subsequent air strikes or special ops infiltration.
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Bit too early to celebrate, but fingers crossed. If he's dead we should have confirmation soon.
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United States42839 Posts
On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption?
Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments.
There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that.
On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke.
Well this aged like milk in a hot car.
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Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
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On September 25 2024 14:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its amazing how many new posters come on to this forum only to post in this thread in defence of Israel.
While following this thread for quite some time before starting to post, to me, it was amazing to see so many users use labels that hardly have a connection to reality in this conflict like genocide, Apartheid or forced famines.
And to get jumped by 7 or 8 people when entering, only for no one being able to explain how actual numbers and statistics match these labels should make you worry more about the general culture in this thread than some newcomers asking necessary questions.
On September 25 2024 15:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 15:31 WombaT wrote:On September 25 2024 14:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its amazing how many new posters come on to this forum only to post in this thread in defence of Israel. I mean I get much of my news and engage in basically all political discussion solely on TL these days, but it does seem a strange port of call for newcomers to gravitate to to discuss this particular topic Especially when they gravitate to discuss the topic in order to not say anything 
Better than to spew unsubstantiated accusations or putting words in other's mouths I guess.
On September 26 2024 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2024 03:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 26 2024 02:08 RvB wrote:On September 25 2024 05:25 Nebuchad wrote:On September 25 2024 05:21 RenSC2 wrote:
The argument that they are not human shields because Israel is attacking anyways is complete garbage. A shield that doesn't work well is still a shield. If I'm a barbarian who's charging into battle with a wooden shield and I get blasted with a cannon ball, I still used a shield, it just wasn't very effective. Hamas is still putting their military assets in hospitals and schools. Hamas is still the one committing the war crimes by using human shields.
Whoever Neve Gordon is, he's a fucking moron or else he's being completely misrepresented. The purpose of a shield is not to be broken, it's to protect. Hamas doesn't want the civilians to protect them, it wants the civilians to die. As such, the term is not an accurate description of what's happening, and it is apparent (to me) that the only reason why the term is used is to protect Israel. If I recall correctly a long time ago Israel was claiming literal human shields, like they're in battle and the Hamas soldiers are hiding behind civilians. Then this was debunked and human shield took on this new meaning of "existing in the same general area as civilians" that I find annoying to read. You don't remember correctly. Hamas strategic use of human shielding in Gaza mainly started by calling on supporters to go to houses that were Israeli targets. Israel would warn ahead of time what house they'd strike and then Hamas would call on supporters to go to that house. That's a textbook case of using humans as a shield. It was never 'debunked'. The first time this happened it was widely reported. See for example www.cbsnews.com. Hamas never denied it (same source): Ok thank you, I wasn't sure. Probably at the time I was still naive enough to think that when people said human shields they meant human shields and that's why I got confused. You are aware of how these terms have been used and what people mean. This feels bad faith and spiteful. You yourself have participated in these discussions in the past. Are you asking us to use a different term? I'm sorry if I am missing your point here, but it feels like there is a larger point you are trying to make.
Don’t expect a good faith discussion with Nebuchad as the behavior displayed by this person is the perfect example of bad faith (they will obviously claim the same about me). It already starts with the ad hominems and fallacies the same way it went down with me - just a quick warning to not waste time.
In general the other side mostly never or only extremely superficially talks about the actual facts like Soldier-to-Civilian casualty rates, the impossible data sets surrounding STC in Gaza, the amount of humanitarian aid and food that went into Gaza, how many trucks were actually prohibited from entering or how the distribution inside Gaza is the issue in this thread. They always revert back to grand narrativse or analogies that fall short half of the time or draw upon the most obvious fallacies.
The anti-Israels mostly talk in broad narratives which they base on - in the grand scheme of deaths and things - singular instances.
They spice it with some vague accusations that are left hanging in the air without specifically defining them and are blind to the realities of war that have been present in every conflict.
Basically: "Israel is wrong, no matter what it does".
When asked as to what Israel actually should do in the face of constant rocket attacks, October 7th or other lines that are crossed regularly by the opposing sides, you only get insufficient answers
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On September 26 2024 23:59 Magic Powers wrote:
Nebuchad is no more unkind than you are. Get off your high horse. Debate his arguments and stop attacking the person.
Because especially you two guys are debating and addressing the actual arguments, huh?
On September 27 2024 01:57 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 01:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2024 01:35 Billyboy wrote:
Human shields is a real term and it does not completely absolve anyone. For example if a bank robber took 40 hostages and stood behind them he would be using them as human shields. If the police used a rocket to kill the robber and the 40 hostages, no one would be like, "well they used human shields so what could the police do". Why not? Darn, I thought it was possible to have a non bad faith discussion with you.
My sweet summer child…
On September 27 2024 17:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2024 11:14 Billyboy wrote:
A few people are missing the discussion people are trying to have. It is not that they think Israel is the good guys and Palestinians are the bad guys.
It is that Iran and their terrorist groups are the villain's also, and the Palestinians are victims.
Some think equal to Israel, some think Iran and their terrorist groups are actually worse.
And it is frustrating that whenever tries to point this out it is ignored or hand waved and people ask what to do about the Iran problem all the sudden all the really angry people lose their keyboards.
So if you would like to argue with someone argue why Iran is actually helping Palestinians and how they will make it better for them or whatever and then the other person can argue why not. But right now it is ships passing in the night because your logic is against an argument no one is making. (If someone thinks Israel is completely innocent and virtuous feel free to correct me). Literally everyone in this thread knows that Hamas, Hezbollah, whatever terrorist groups are terrible. There isn't a single person here arguing otherwise. No Western government (at least to my knowledge) gives support to those groups, openly or otherwise. They're widely condemned and placed under sanctions wherever possible. Israel, on the other hand, is generally painted as the 'victim' in this conflict; media and governments all around the world keep insisting that they 'must defend themselves' -- despite the fact that they are an aggressor and an occupier, not to mention the utter brutality they have shown time and time again in this conflict. They've been killing and maiming Palestinians for decades with no repercussions, instead, they get donations, tech transfers, intelligence and whatever other support necessary. Nobody here is saying that we should all cozy up to Hamas and give them guns to kill Jews better. But maybe we should stop excusing the countless atrocities Israel is committing in the name of 'self defense' while simultaneously occupying and ethnically cleansing land that isn't theirs.
Where are you from?
Because I have not seen a single government that didn’t criticize Israel on several occasions since October 7th. Western Media, especially the left leaning ones which are the far majority in the States for example, are all over Israel every time something goes wrong. Simply check ground news’ coverage.
I can’t follow this perception at all to be honest.
And who is excusing the atrocities that were committed by Israel?
No matter if it was civilians being forced to look for booby traps or the strikes against humanitarian trucks... all these instances have been condemned here and world wide.
All that the people are saying is, that there is a freaking war out there and that mistakes and atrocities happen.
What you guys fail to realize in my opinion, is that in the grand scheme of things, Israel has done more than other warring factions to prevent civilian casualties. Israel warned the civilians before attacking (same in Lebanon now), endangering their own troops with every passing minute.
Israel is actively supporting the Gazans with aid, water and electricity. It is repairing the damages done to water pipes by Hamas.
Multiple times I mentioned the casualty rates, impossible data sets provided by the Gazan MoH as well as the calculations around aid and the small amount of food trucks being prohibited from entering.
Not one of you was willing to talk about these numbers in depth and sufficiently to solidify their case. Are you?
On September 28 2024 07:15 Mohdoo wrote:
These early images make it appear very unlikely Nasrallah survived, but he's such an important figure for Iran that I imagine he's given some extremely special security measures. Israel following up right after with this huge strike on the weapons storage makes me feel like they are basically going for the throat because they want everyone in Lebanon to know Hezbollah has no future.
The symbolic value of actually killing Nasrallah is huge. It signals Hezbollah is a sinking ship Israel does not fear Iran.
Even trying to kill Nasrallah is probably the boldest move Israel can make short of directly striking Iranian officials within Iran. I think it is well understood among all the relevant players that Hezbollah is the IRGC's pride and joy. Nasrallah's death will signify the end of Iran's rotten little Jihad network.
For the sake of throwing my bet into the pile, I think Nasrallah survived the strike but he won't be able to escape Lebanon and will ultimately end up killed in subsequent air strikes or special ops infiltration.
"You will kill one guy, they get a new now" versus the fact that Israel's recent attacks might disorganize the terrorist group for quite some time. I don't think there would be a better time than right now if his death can actually be confirmed. If not, his legendary status among the Lebanese Shia could even give them strength or a boost in morale after surviving such an air strike.
I just hope that this offensive cripples Hezbollah to the point that their near daily attacks since October 7th come to a stop, looking at the civilians on both sides of the border.
On September 28 2024 11:02 Husyelt wrote:
Can Israel stop attacking its neighbors for a single day? Do we need a 300-1 kill to death ratio for civilians and terrorist? thought 50-1 was pretty bad already
Interesting take, as Hezbollah has been sending rockets at Israel almost daily for nearly a year now.
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EPT
