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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

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WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26067 Posts
1 hour ago
#107181
On November 18 2025 19:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)

It’s also not a guarantee of winning anyway. If you’re a Labour member over here, you can vote for leadership of the party. Which gave us Corbyn, who many were enthused about, myself included. There was something of a grass roots groundswell, boxes were ticked.

Still lost ultimately.

It strikes me as a pretty selective pick of what is remotely realistic. I don’t like the ‘just move’ ‘solution’ just to make that abundantly clear. And retorts to that idea I agree with. People have ties, people can’t necessarily afford to, etc etc I mean 100%

But that applies equally to the idea that people should be deeply engaged in local political activism. If I’m working 70+ hours a week across two jobs, even if I agree and feel strongly am I going to give up the modicum of downtime I have, or time with family to get involved in the primary process?

I mean some might, but it’s a pretty big ask.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45067 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-18 14:37:11
1 hour ago
#107182
On November 18 2025 23:27 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 19:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)

It’s also not a guarantee of winning anyway. If you’re a Labour member over here, you can vote for leadership of the party. Which gave us Corbyn, who many were enthused about, myself included. There was something of a grass roots groundswell, boxes were ticked.

Still lost ultimately.

It strikes me as a pretty selective pick of what is remotely realistic. I don’t like the ‘just move’ ‘solution’ just to make that abundantly clear. And retorts to that idea I agree with. People have ties, people can’t necessarily afford to, etc etc I mean 100%

But that applies equally to the idea that people should be deeply engaged in local political activism. If I’m working 70+ hours a week across two jobs, even if I agree and feel strongly am I going to give up the modicum of downtime I have, or time with family to get involved in the primary process?

I mean some might, but it’s a pretty big ask.

Well said. Effectively persuading someone to dedicate more time to a cause often requires baby steps - a little nudge here or there, a small and easy decision at first, just to make a tiny bit of progress and get the ball rolling - because not everyone has the capacity or confidence to take giant leaps all at once.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23484 Posts
1 hour ago
#107183
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Josh Marshall over at TPM recently wrote a piece about more or less the question you’re asking. It’s paywalled but I’ll toss it in a spoiler if you’re interested.
+ Show Spoiler [Josh Marshall’s piece] +
The Status Interview—Or How To Write Up a Senate Purge List

Over the last couple days I’ve argued both that the denouement of the shutdown standoff was a flub and an embarrassment and also that the overall situation is going reasonably well. This isn’t defending the members of the Democratic caucus. I don’t need to defend or attack them because I’m mostly indifferent to them. I’m looking to a half-dozen year or more time horizon in which almost all the current senators need to be convinced to take a dramatically different approach to politics or purged from the ranks of elected office. Let’s call it Change or Purge. To me, from March to now was a big step forward. The way of operating during this shutdown was very different from what happened in March. And the way it ended — here I know many disagree with me — doesn’t negate what happened during the last five weeks, either in terms of the changed behavior or what was accomplished. This is a multi-course treatment. The results of the first course were encouraging. So, on to the remaining nine.

Since I’ve focused on this Change or Purge framework in this post I’d like to flesh out some of what that means. Of course a lot of this is either characterological or a way of using power. That can be hard to capture in bullet points or outside the context of a specific political situation. But there are a series of things senators support or don’t support that gives a clear indication of whether they are serious about confronting the challenge of the moment or battling back from Trumpism.

What does that mean? I think of it as: You live in a disaster zone. The floods and hurricanes are going to be twice as strong and three times as frequent going forward. So you’ve got to retrofit the house (this means legislation, mostly) and get in the habit of handling natural disasters (this means their approach to power). So what counts in this context? Here are five things I would want to ask and get an answer on from every Democratic senator or candidate. Think of it another way: You’re new management coming in to turn around a failing company. You want to sit down with every employee right after you take over to see if they’re part of the solution or part of the problem. That’s the Status Interview. Here are the five questions.

One: The filibuster. If you support keeping the filibuster you are not serious about moving the country forward in any positive direction. Unless you’re a Democratic senator from a red state — holding a seat probably no one else could hold — you should absolutely be primaried with the intent of removing you from office at the first opportunity. None of the legislation that is required to retrofit the house can happen with the filibuster in place. If you support the filibuster that means that your response to Trumpite autocracy is to do nothing and hope for the best. That’s unacceptable and you need to go. What’s so important about the filibuster question is not only how essential it is itself. It’s that there’s no reason not to do it. The filibuster is an historical accident which perverts how the Constitution is supposed to work. There are a number of things the moment requires which cut hard against our civic acculturation. They might not be justified in ordinary times but they are now. The filibuster isn’t anything like that. It should be a gimme. It’s a bad thing in every way. If you support the filibuster you are either a fraud, haven’t seriously considered the situation or don’t care. None of those three possibilities is acceptable.

Two: Supreme Court reform. I said above that some of the decisions are hard. They cut against a lot of what we were taught about political life. This is one of them. It’s only in the last three or four years that I’ve come around to the necessity of it and it’s still sometimes hard to get my head around. But it is essential. With the filibuster in place, no broader anti-authoritarian reform, no retrofitting the house is possible. It’s the same with the Supreme Court. The current Republican majority is thoroughly corrupt and has hijacked the Constitution. They have cut free not only from precedent but from any consistent or coherent theory of the Constitution, no matter how wrongheaded. The purpose of the high court is not to run the country. It is to render decisions on points of constitutional and legal ambiguity in a good faith and broadly consistent manner. It is now engaged in purely outcome-driven reasoning, mixing and matching doctrines and modes of jurisprudence depending on the desired ends, with the aim of furthering autocratic and Republican rule. That is the heart of the corruption. Passing laws doesn’t matter if they can and will be discarded simply because six lifetime appointees don’t like them. That’s a perversion of the constitutional order. I know this one is hard to swallow for many people. It doesn’t come easily to me either. But the facts of the situation and fidelity to the Constitution require it. I’m not going to get into the specific kind of reform here. There are various ways to go about it. You can judge it by the end result. If you are for leaving intact the corrupt Republican majority’s absolute control over the political and partisan direction of the country, you should leave or be driven from office.

From here the list becomes more diffuse. But that only shows the centrality of these first two questions. I would almost say that your list could be limited to these two things. They’re far from the only things needed. But the answers to those two questions will give you a pretty good indication of where someone would be on every other point. Still, the rest are important.

Three: Statehood. Making DC and Puerto Rico into states isn’t quite as essential as points one and two. They aren’t sine qua nons that stand in the path of anything else happening. But they’re very important. The most important reason for making DC and Puerto Rico states is that DC and Puerto Rico should in fact be states. (In any other advanced country it would seem bizarre if two jurisdictions just arbitrarily didn’t have the political rights as everyone else.) I lived in DC from 1999 to 2004. It was a bummer not having congressional representation. But the harm was largely notional, a matter of principle. In practice, life in DC wasn’t that different from Maryland or Virginia. What we’ve seen over the last year makes clear this is a very real harm and deprivation of rights, not at all theoretical thing. A renegade president can treat the district and its citizens as conquered territory. DC absolutely needs to be given the sovereignty and structural protections of statehood. The other issue is that making DC and Puerto Rico into states is a very legitimate opportunity to redress some of the current structural Republican advantage in the Senate. That’s good on principle and good politics. A hard swallow? Maybe. But if you’re not up for it I bet you won’t be up for a lot of critical things.

Four: Clearing the law books. As we’ve seen over the last year, the U.S. federal code is full of laws which assume the sitting president broadly supports the federal Constitution, civic democracy and the best interests of all American citizens. We know now that that is a dangerous assumption. There are lots of laws which grant the president vast powers if things get super weird. And the president is in charge of deciding whether they’re weird. A lot of this is the dirty work of the corrupt Republican majority on the Supreme Court. But a lot of the laws are genuinely far too ambiguous. We need to change all of those laws. That involves potentially creating different harms by weakening the presidency. There are cases when you want a president to be able to move expeditiously and effectively in emergencies. Laws will have to be revised with that contrary danger in mind. But right now the balance is far too much in the direction of presidential power. The president can’t be allowed to use the U.S. military (which most certainly includes the Guard) to overawe or effectively conquer states that don’t support him politically. Could a president still do this even with new laws in place? Possibly. But you need it to be crystal clear that when it does the president is violating black letter federal law as well as the Constitution.

Five: Outlaw extreme gerrymandering. A couple things here require explanation. I say “extreme” gerrymandering. And that may sound like I’m okay or we should be okay with some gerrymandering. That’s not it exactly. I say this because there is no objectively correct map. All legislative maps involve decisions and advantages here or there. I add “extreme” as a matter of realism more than license. But it is essential to have a federal legal framework governing how maps can be legitimately drawn. They cannot be drawn for partisan advantage, to disempower or empower one racial group over another or one region over another. Again there are no perfect maps and no perfect rules. But it cannot be a free-for-all. Because of the corrupt Republican majority on the court it’s now a free-for-all. This may seem off-message or hypocritical since Democrats across the country are now rushing to gerrymander their maps. There’s no contradiction whatsoever. You can’t have one set of rules in one part of the country and a different one in another. This is an opportunity to state a far broader principle: you cannot have Democrats responsible for winning power and saving the republic and simultaneously responsible for honoring a set of norms the right has already destroyed. That’s not how it works. That’s not how you should think it should work if you’re serious about using power and know what using it requires. Every representative elected on a gerrymandered map should be committed to supporting a real federal gerrymandering law. And that is a reminder of the centrality of filibuster and Supreme Court reform. Without the first, there’s no federal law. And without the second the law is meaningless since it will simply be rejected by the corrupt Republican majority for some made-up reason.

I thought of various other things to add here. But these are more than enough to separate the senatorial wheat from the chaff. It’s not an exhaustive list. It’s not intended to be. It’s a list to help people make sense of whether a senator or a Senate candidate is ready to at least try to rein in Trumpism and plot a course forward for the American republic.

I’ve tried to be general because I’m not trying to make up a list of how to remake the country based on the Josh agenda. My goal here is more to identify central problems and help people think clearly about whether a given elected official is serious about addressing those problems. I would even say that perhaps someone shouldn’t be written off simply because they disagree with one of these points. But if I were evaluating a Senate candidate or senator, I would say that if they reject one of these five checklist points the burden is on them to provide a serious explanation of a credible path to retrofitting the house that doesn’t require it. I’m all ears because I don’t have all the answers. But I doubt you can do it without these steps. I would genuinely like to hear an alternative to Supreme Court reform. I just don’t think it exists. And if your answer is just hand waving and talk, leave or be driven from office.


But TL;DR his list is:
  • End the filibuster
  • Supreme Court reform
  • Statehood for DC and Puerto Rico
  • Clear the law books of all the “declare an emergency” powers granted to the executive
  • Ban extreme gerrymandering

That list is obviously focused on addressing more foundational problems with American government systems (and, it’s hard not to notice, boosting the electoral chances of Democrats). Ending the filibuster, limiting gerrymandering as much as possible, and ending lifetime appointments for SCOTUS are all a bit more long-term and not directly responsive to “how are we gonna stop the current administration’s abuses?”

Personally I think ending ICE should be a requirement to be in the coalition at this point. It’s just too clear at this point that they’re totally lawless and unaccountable, and gleefully so; even if you think strong border enforcement at the federal level is important, we’ve just got to take this agency out behind the barn. Anybody giving “few bad apples” rhetoric has no place in the opposition.

I mean my dream list would obviously be further left, even libhorizon's list was, but yeah. Pretty sure the writer is just a regular lib/Democrat, not some radical lefty. That's the kind of thing I've been saying anyone that plans on supporting Democrats needs to be discussing for almost a year now, to little/no avail.

I particularly liked this line:

But there are a series of things senators support or don’t support that gives a clear indication of whether they are serious about confronting the challenge of the moment or battling back from Trumpism.


Now we might not all agree on what those are, but that's the discussion every lib/Dem/ilk needs to be have been having with each other for months already, but they've pretty steadfastly refused out of spite.

I think you're right about ICE, but I suspect you'll find the problems with the Democrats' party aren't really a "few bad apples" either. This is sorta implied by the recognition that the complicity caucus is bigger than the 8 that recently collaborated with Republicans/Trump.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1881 Posts
1 hour ago
#107184
In case we're still on the "Trump was just good friends with the most notorious child sex trafficker in human history" bandwagon. The White House Intervened on Behalf of Accused Sex Trafficker Andrew Tate During a Federal Investigation. Federal authorities were chided for seizing electronic devices from Tate and his brother, and told to return them, records and interviews show. Experts said the intervention was highly inappropriate: https://www.propublica.org/article/andrew-tate-investigation-dhs-paul-ingrassia
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
891 Posts
1 hour ago
#107185
On November 18 2025 22:52 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:57 KwarK wrote:
VG was trafficked from Mar-a-Lago though. Thats where she had a massage job as a child. Mar-a-Lago is where Maxwell and Epstein were hunting for vulnerable children and found her. The narrative that there is no overlap between Trump and Epstein preying on VG gets a little weird when you remember that Trump and Epstein were best friends and that Epstein got VG from Trump. The friendship isn’t in dispute. The location of the meeting isn’t in dispute. The timeline isn’t in dispute.

So let us dismiss the idea that Trump wasn't in any way associated with it. He was a part of the pipeline, without Mar-a-Lago there's no VG Epstein meeting. But let us instead assume that he didn't know that Maxwell and Ghislaine were trafficking girls. The problem we have with that is the 1997 newspaper article that describes Anouska De Georgiou, one of Epstein's underage rape victims, being set up with Trump by their mutual friend, Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/How suite! Trump's Brit of all right.-a061140675
After their meeting, Trump flew Madam Maxwell and the model south to the sunshine state, where all three enjoyed a happy weekend together. When they returned to New York, Anouska was installed in one of Donald's many apartments there.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.threads.com/@beingliberal/post/C4nvJperkt0/media?hl=zh-hk


The girl's name is Anouska De Georgiou. She was one of Epstein's rape victims.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-british-teen-model-was-lured-jeffrey-epstein-s-web-n1056901

Now it's possible that we can't trust the source behind the newspaper article. The Sunday Mirror is a bit of a gossip rag, we don't necessarily know who they heard it from. The newspaper is printing stories about Ghislaine Maxwell but we don't know if they researched those stories or spoke to anyone close to Ghislaine. We might guess based on the fact that the Sunday Mirror was owned by Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell, but I guess we can't know.


Ok, Anouska first. According to your own link she was 20 at the time she started some sort of relationship with Trump. Wouldnt be exactly first time ever when young girl has relationship with old rich guy.

As for Giuffre (which I believe was the "redacted as a victim" in the particular email, mentioning Trump spending hours with. Giuffre I think quite few times mentioned that Trump didnt do anything to her. ( https://abcnews.go.com/US/virginia-giuffre-trump-jeffrey-epstein/story?id=127468657)

Also one of the reasons Trump gave for breaking his ties with Epstein is the fact that he was poaching his spa workers (other being Epstein behaviour toward teenage daughter of the club member), whether it is true or not I cant know, it does seem somewhat plausible though.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2025/jul/31/what-we-know-about-the-trump-epstein-falling-outow/

There is few things which seem to paint Trump as more on the innocent side regarding Epstein (not saying he is innocent I simply cant know that):

He cut ties with Epstein before it become trendy

This is what victim lawyer, Brad Edwards said about Trump:

"Asked about Epstein's relationship with Trump he replied: "The only thing I can say about President Trump is that he is the only person who in 2009, when I served a lot of subpoenas on a lot of people, or at least gave notice to some pretty connected people that I wanted to talk to them, he is the only person who picked up the phone and said 'lets just talk, I'll give you as much time as you want, I'll tell you what you need to know.'

Edwards said Trump: "Was very helpful in the information he gave and gave no indication whatsoever that he was involved in anything untoward whatsoever but had good information that checked out and that helped us and that we didn't have to take a deposition of him.""

https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-victims-attorney-talks-about-donald-trump-claims-1857298

Democrats sat on those files for 4 years, do you really think that if there was something damning about Trump, it wouldnt somehow leak before the election? I find the idea improbable.

When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:

"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

I have a problem with Trump fucking one of Epstein’s sex slaves, even if he didn’t do it until after she was too old for Epstein. If Epstein rapes her until she turns 18 and then Maxwell offers Trump a turn then that’s not somehow fine.

But in any case the fact remains that there is contemporary documentation showing that Epstein/Maxwell were providing girls for Trump. So we can dismiss the “they were just good friends but he wasn’t involved in the sex” suggestion. He was involved in the sex.


This alleges that Trump knew everything back in 1997? Do you have the same contempt for partners of all the other Epstein victims?
Providing in this case is quite broad term, it encompasses things like delivering a girl in chains to someone's soundproof basement, as well as "let me introduce you to my friend". In case you have issue with the latter let me explain: if someone you know said that to you it would be introduction, if that same person would be later exposed as a sex trafficker it would be providing.

I think the issue you have is that you decided that Trump is guilty, and now fitting every new bit of info into that. TBH I am almost 50/50 on the issue, although leaning more towards that he wasnt participating in Epstein sex stuff. For the reasons specified in previous post, and also because given Trump ego, I dont think he could be part of Epstein trafficking ring. Having Trump trafficking ring, sure 100% I can see that, being part of somebody else's? Not so much.
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1881 Posts
1 hour ago
#107186
"I think Trump would be a serial child molester and trafficker if he could take verbal credit for it" is an amazing take to defend the person you voted for.
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45067 Posts
1 hour ago
#107187
On November 19 2025 00:00 LightSpectra wrote:
"I think Trump would be a serial child molester and trafficker if he could take verbal credit for it" is an amazing take to defend the person you voted for.

Not to mention that Razyda has now taken the position of "Having Trump trafficking ring, sure 100% I can see that".
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23484 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-18 15:09:06
1 hour ago
#107188
On November 18 2025 19:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)

I explained the importance of being able to identify whether your own senator was sufficiently fighting Trump/fascists ~9 months ago... When you initially presented this idea of replacing politicians that weren't sufficiently fighting Trump/fascists as your preferred strategy. You've demonstrated what I suspected/suggested at the time. That they were empty clichés that are hopeless

On February 18 2025 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
@Mohdoo: "the best I could hope for" is significantly better, but I think Democrats not even having a performative (while still wholly ineffective) plan has exposed them in a way that can be exploited by savy political entities. I think "the opposite" would more be 80 year old Durbin saying tomorrow that he's going to make space for the next generation of Democrats by not running in 2026 and supporting the nominee (without a thumb on the scale for who that is).

@Acro, sure does...


Show nested quote +
On February 18 2025 02:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On February 18 2025 02:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 18 2025 01:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On February 18 2025 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2025 23:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
A nice little summary of Trump's and Musk's and Republicans' atrocities over the past month, ending with a call to action for Democratic voters to reach out to (and even primary) any current Democratic representatives who aren't willing to fight for Americans.


This is standard for every election with the primary disagreements being who qualifies as "Democrat representatives that aren't willing to fight for Americans".

Alternatively, it's a lowering of the bar from "support politicians that best represent your policy preferences" to "only challenge politicians you can explicitly demonstrate refuse to do anything that could arguably be construed as fighting for Americans" (which I'm pretty sure Trump supporters still are).

Just to demonstrate this, who are we talking about? Did Oliver mention anyone specific to primary? Do you have anyone/anything specific that is demonstrative of "Democrat not willing to fight for Americans" in mind? Does anyone? It's sorta like a Democrat "thoughts and prayers". It's a nice thing to say, but it doesn't really mean anything.


26:50 onwards, JO gave some examples.

"Examples" of "Democrats not willing to fight for Americans"? I got from the video: Dick Durbin because he didn't know who was going to lead the charge against Trump. Hakeem Jeffries, based on a pretty common sentiment that Democrats should choose their battles, and a terrible choice for a player in a baseball metaphor.

You've started by suggesting Pelosi's hand-picked replacement Dem leader of the House is "not willing to fight for Americans". If that's who people are supposed to primary, that's literally going to be a majority of the party.

This is what I mean by it not really meaning anything. You're not actually suggesting to or going to try to primary either of them (or most of the party). Durbin won his primary 1,446,118 - 0. This is just deeply unserious.

Tell you what though, I'll call Durbin and Jeffries office and tell them to fight Trump harder, whether he likes it or not. What could I get you to do in a comparable good faith effort toward trying out socialist recommendations as well?


Didn't Durbin win that primary because he was uncontested? 2 people withdrew before the primary votes were cast, so no one actually ran against him ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_Senate_election_in_Illinois ).

And yeah, if Jeffries and the majority of the party aren't willing to fight, then they should be primaried by people who will. More progressive / left-wing / socialist-adjacent candidates could have an opening there, if they wanted to run.

+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah, that was basically my point on Durbin. I'm presuming some basic understanding of electoral politics here and the enormity of ginning up a primary against someone like that. You have to start yesterday. You can't wait 3-6 months to find a candidate/decide if you need to primary him/most of the party or not.


Let's just bring this home. Is Booker demonstrably more willing to fight than Durbin or Jeffries? How can we honestly/objectively measure this to know whether we need to be working together on primarying Booker? We can't wait long (were talking days/weeks if that, not months) to seriously start the groundwork to run these primaries as JO pointed out.

We need to look at the metrics you apply to Booker so the rest of us can apply it locally and we can get a better picture for how many primaries we're talking about, where they are, what the conditions for all of them are, and where it makes sense to dedicate time and resources.


And it's not like you haven't known there's a problem with Schumer for nearly a decade. One of the few times you've referred to him by name was basically pointing out this problem.

On July 24 2017 06:51: DarkPlasmaBall wrote:

I'm a little bit more skeptical, unfortunately. Especially when Schumer said "And the No. 1 thing that we did wrong is ... we didn't tell people what we stood for" and then later on with the list of their ideas. I understood those ideas, loud and clear. I knew what Bernie's and Hillary's and the DNC's plans were regarding healthcare, education, and all the other big platforms.

I thought that the #1 thing that the Democratic establishment did wrong was that their overall message was more towards the center and they wouldn't even entertain moving left or supporting anyone who was to the left of their message, leaving Bernie supporters and anti-establishment liberals feeling disenfranchised...


Your problem isn't time. Maybe you could make a case for having an issue with time management, but that's on you. I also am less concerned about persuading and more concerned about you all looking at the facts (even when they make you feel bad/uncomfortable) and arriving at objectively better conclusions, like "Schumer has to be removed from leadership". This should be an easy one for you, you've had ~8 years to look into it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43254 Posts
1 hour ago
#107189
On November 18 2025 23:55 Razyda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 22:52 KwarK wrote:
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:57 KwarK wrote:
VG was trafficked from Mar-a-Lago though. Thats where she had a massage job as a child. Mar-a-Lago is where Maxwell and Epstein were hunting for vulnerable children and found her. The narrative that there is no overlap between Trump and Epstein preying on VG gets a little weird when you remember that Trump and Epstein were best friends and that Epstein got VG from Trump. The friendship isn’t in dispute. The location of the meeting isn’t in dispute. The timeline isn’t in dispute.

So let us dismiss the idea that Trump wasn't in any way associated with it. He was a part of the pipeline, without Mar-a-Lago there's no VG Epstein meeting. But let us instead assume that he didn't know that Maxwell and Ghislaine were trafficking girls. The problem we have with that is the 1997 newspaper article that describes Anouska De Georgiou, one of Epstein's underage rape victims, being set up with Trump by their mutual friend, Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/How suite! Trump's Brit of all right.-a061140675
After their meeting, Trump flew Madam Maxwell and the model south to the sunshine state, where all three enjoyed a happy weekend together. When they returned to New York, Anouska was installed in one of Donald's many apartments there.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.threads.com/@beingliberal/post/C4nvJperkt0/media?hl=zh-hk


The girl's name is Anouska De Georgiou. She was one of Epstein's rape victims.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-british-teen-model-was-lured-jeffrey-epstein-s-web-n1056901

Now it's possible that we can't trust the source behind the newspaper article. The Sunday Mirror is a bit of a gossip rag, we don't necessarily know who they heard it from. The newspaper is printing stories about Ghislaine Maxwell but we don't know if they researched those stories or spoke to anyone close to Ghislaine. We might guess based on the fact that the Sunday Mirror was owned by Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell, but I guess we can't know.


Ok, Anouska first. According to your own link she was 20 at the time she started some sort of relationship with Trump. Wouldnt be exactly first time ever when young girl has relationship with old rich guy.

As for Giuffre (which I believe was the "redacted as a victim" in the particular email, mentioning Trump spending hours with. Giuffre I think quite few times mentioned that Trump didnt do anything to her. ( https://abcnews.go.com/US/virginia-giuffre-trump-jeffrey-epstein/story?id=127468657)

Also one of the reasons Trump gave for breaking his ties with Epstein is the fact that he was poaching his spa workers (other being Epstein behaviour toward teenage daughter of the club member), whether it is true or not I cant know, it does seem somewhat plausible though.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2025/jul/31/what-we-know-about-the-trump-epstein-falling-outow/

There is few things which seem to paint Trump as more on the innocent side regarding Epstein (not saying he is innocent I simply cant know that):

He cut ties with Epstein before it become trendy

This is what victim lawyer, Brad Edwards said about Trump:

"Asked about Epstein's relationship with Trump he replied: "The only thing I can say about President Trump is that he is the only person who in 2009, when I served a lot of subpoenas on a lot of people, or at least gave notice to some pretty connected people that I wanted to talk to them, he is the only person who picked up the phone and said 'lets just talk, I'll give you as much time as you want, I'll tell you what you need to know.'

Edwards said Trump: "Was very helpful in the information he gave and gave no indication whatsoever that he was involved in anything untoward whatsoever but had good information that checked out and that helped us and that we didn't have to take a deposition of him.""

https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-victims-attorney-talks-about-donald-trump-claims-1857298

Democrats sat on those files for 4 years, do you really think that if there was something damning about Trump, it wouldnt somehow leak before the election? I find the idea improbable.

When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:

"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

I have a problem with Trump fucking one of Epstein’s sex slaves, even if he didn’t do it until after she was too old for Epstein. If Epstein rapes her until she turns 18 and then Maxwell offers Trump a turn then that’s not somehow fine.

But in any case the fact remains that there is contemporary documentation showing that Epstein/Maxwell were providing girls for Trump. So we can dismiss the “they were just good friends but he wasn’t involved in the sex” suggestion. He was involved in the sex.


This alleges that Trump knew everything back in 1997? Do you have the same contempt for partners of all the other Epstein victims?
Providing in this case is quite broad term, it encompasses things like delivering a girl in chains to someone's soundproof basement, as well as "let me introduce you to my friend". In case you have issue with the latter let me explain: if someone you know said that to you it would be introduction, if that same person would be later exposed as a sex trafficker it would be providing.

I think the issue you have is that you decided that Trump is guilty, and now fitting every new bit of info into that. TBH I am almost 50/50 on the issue, although leaning more towards that he wasnt participating in Epstein sex stuff. For the reasons specified in previous post, and also because given Trump ego, I dont think he could be part of Epstein trafficking ring. Having Trump trafficking ring, sure 100% I can see that, being part of somebody else's? Not so much.

Fortunately we don’t have to decide what providing means in this context. On the one end we have the girl being delivered in chains. On the other end we have a harmless introduction by Ghislaine where they subsequently hit it off. But we have the article specifically telling us that Ghislaine, Trump, and Anouska immediately boarded a plane together for a weekend in Florida and after that Ghislaine installed Anouska in one of Trump’s homes.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3254 Posts
50 minutes ago
#107190
On November 18 2025 19:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)

Sure, I get it. GH comes across as a scold, and it’s completely reasonable to say “I haven’t done the research to have a full answer to that question right now.” I don’t even know how many Dem Senators I can name off the top of my head, I certainly don’t have pro and con lists for each one, and I’m not more motivated to do that work because, like, what am I gonna do with it anyway? Write about it here I guess?

That said, I shared that Josh Marshall piece talking about more or less this issue. Something he’s enthused about is that despite the fumble at the finish line, the Dems at the end of the year were still night and day from the Dems back in March or whatever. Back then Schumer made them agree to some bullshit CR because he didn’t think it was the right time to fight or something. That decision got ridiculed all year, and that crowd got so spooked they waited more than a month to cave, and created all this theater around it when they finally caved because they’re scared of the blowback they’ll get.

So to me what GH (or if you prefer, Josh Marshall) is talking about is just follow-through. We’ve got them running scared, now we need to track them to their hidey-holes – if they’re not willing to fight, they need to give up their seat to someone who will. This political moment requires an opposition that’s willing and able to fight back.

I mean, thinking about the endgame here: the only constitutional remedy to most of these abuses is impeachment. Of course we all know GH is not putting his faith in “constitutional remedies” – he’s hoping we all see the futility of that and join his revolution – but something I think he’d agree with me on is that a large majority of Americans (including the ones he’ll need to persuade for his revolution to work) still believe in the power of those systems. They’re going to need to see them fail before they’re willing to entertain his ideas. So either they mobilize and the constitutional remedies succeed, or they fail and people become open to more radical solutions (maybe his solutions, maybe not).

What I’m scared of (and maybe he is too) is that people are already too jaded to mobilize in the first place – they vaguely believe in the abstract that electoral solutions are the “right way” and reject his revolutionary talk, but then they turn around and don’t do what the electoral solutions would require either. That’s the loss condition here, imo.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45067 Posts
26 minutes ago
#107191
On November 19 2025 00:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 19:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)

I explained the importance of being able to identify whether your own senator was sufficiently fighting Trump/fascists ~9 months ago... When you initially presented this idea of replacing politicians that weren't sufficiently fighting Trump/fascists as your preferred strategy. You've demonstrated what I suspected/suggested at the time. That they were empty clichés that are hopeless

This year's major New Jersey election was the gubernatorial race, which held my attention because the Democratic primary was interesting and the general election appeared to be very close. Focusing on whether or not we'd have a MAGA governor took priority because it was an imminent threat, and thankfully it just ended with a Democratic governor being elected (although not my preferred Democrat).

On the other hand, Senator Cory Booker is up for re-election next year, not 9 months ago and not right now. I believe his primary is in June 2026. My desire to replace ineffective politicians does not need to match your personal, arbitrary timeline of *right-this-second-or-else-you're-full-of-shit-and-you-don't-truly-care-about-politics*.

Only you would go from literally writing "Hell yeah" in agreement to something I wrote to being *this close* to personally blaming me if Cory Booker doesn't get challenged in next year's primary, within the span of a few posts. I'm actually starting to wonder if you're purposely being antagonistic and purposely being terrible at persuading people, just so you can continue to stand alone atop (what you believe to be) a moral high ground.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5769 Posts
15 minutes ago
#107192
On November 19 2025 00:04 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 23:55 Razyda wrote:
On November 18 2025 22:52 KwarK wrote:
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:57 KwarK wrote:
VG was trafficked from Mar-a-Lago though. Thats where she had a massage job as a child. Mar-a-Lago is where Maxwell and Epstein were hunting for vulnerable children and found her. The narrative that there is no overlap between Trump and Epstein preying on VG gets a little weird when you remember that Trump and Epstein were best friends and that Epstein got VG from Trump. The friendship isn’t in dispute. The location of the meeting isn’t in dispute. The timeline isn’t in dispute.

So let us dismiss the idea that Trump wasn't in any way associated with it. He was a part of the pipeline, without Mar-a-Lago there's no VG Epstein meeting. But let us instead assume that he didn't know that Maxwell and Ghislaine were trafficking girls. The problem we have with that is the 1997 newspaper article that describes Anouska De Georgiou, one of Epstein's underage rape victims, being set up with Trump by their mutual friend, Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/How suite! Trump's Brit of all right.-a061140675
After their meeting, Trump flew Madam Maxwell and the model south to the sunshine state, where all three enjoyed a happy weekend together. When they returned to New York, Anouska was installed in one of Donald's many apartments there.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.threads.com/@beingliberal/post/C4nvJperkt0/media?hl=zh-hk


The girl's name is Anouska De Georgiou. She was one of Epstein's rape victims.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-british-teen-model-was-lured-jeffrey-epstein-s-web-n1056901

Now it's possible that we can't trust the source behind the newspaper article. The Sunday Mirror is a bit of a gossip rag, we don't necessarily know who they heard it from. The newspaper is printing stories about Ghislaine Maxwell but we don't know if they researched those stories or spoke to anyone close to Ghislaine. We might guess based on the fact that the Sunday Mirror was owned by Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell, but I guess we can't know.


Ok, Anouska first. According to your own link she was 20 at the time she started some sort of relationship with Trump. Wouldnt be exactly first time ever when young girl has relationship with old rich guy.

As for Giuffre (which I believe was the "redacted as a victim" in the particular email, mentioning Trump spending hours with. Giuffre I think quite few times mentioned that Trump didnt do anything to her. ( https://abcnews.go.com/US/virginia-giuffre-trump-jeffrey-epstein/story?id=127468657)

Also one of the reasons Trump gave for breaking his ties with Epstein is the fact that he was poaching his spa workers (other being Epstein behaviour toward teenage daughter of the club member), whether it is true or not I cant know, it does seem somewhat plausible though.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2025/jul/31/what-we-know-about-the-trump-epstein-falling-outow/

There is few things which seem to paint Trump as more on the innocent side regarding Epstein (not saying he is innocent I simply cant know that):

He cut ties with Epstein before it become trendy

This is what victim lawyer, Brad Edwards said about Trump:

"Asked about Epstein's relationship with Trump he replied: "The only thing I can say about President Trump is that he is the only person who in 2009, when I served a lot of subpoenas on a lot of people, or at least gave notice to some pretty connected people that I wanted to talk to them, he is the only person who picked up the phone and said 'lets just talk, I'll give you as much time as you want, I'll tell you what you need to know.'

Edwards said Trump: "Was very helpful in the information he gave and gave no indication whatsoever that he was involved in anything untoward whatsoever but had good information that checked out and that helped us and that we didn't have to take a deposition of him.""

https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-victims-attorney-talks-about-donald-trump-claims-1857298

Democrats sat on those files for 4 years, do you really think that if there was something damning about Trump, it wouldnt somehow leak before the election? I find the idea improbable.

When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:

"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

I have a problem with Trump fucking one of Epstein’s sex slaves, even if he didn’t do it until after she was too old for Epstein. If Epstein rapes her until she turns 18 and then Maxwell offers Trump a turn then that’s not somehow fine.

But in any case the fact remains that there is contemporary documentation showing that Epstein/Maxwell were providing girls for Trump. So we can dismiss the “they were just good friends but he wasn’t involved in the sex” suggestion. He was involved in the sex.


This alleges that Trump knew everything back in 1997? Do you have the same contempt for partners of all the other Epstein victims?
Providing in this case is quite broad term, it encompasses things like delivering a girl in chains to someone's soundproof basement, as well as "let me introduce you to my friend". In case you have issue with the latter let me explain: if someone you know said that to you it would be introduction, if that same person would be later exposed as a sex trafficker it would be providing.

I think the issue you have is that you decided that Trump is guilty, and now fitting every new bit of info into that. TBH I am almost 50/50 on the issue, although leaning more towards that he wasnt participating in Epstein sex stuff. For the reasons specified in previous post, and also because given Trump ego, I dont think he could be part of Epstein trafficking ring. Having Trump trafficking ring, sure 100% I can see that, being part of somebody else's? Not so much.

Fortunately we don’t have to decide what providing means in this context. On the one end we have the girl being delivered in chains. On the other end we have a harmless introduction by Ghislaine where they subsequently hit it off. But we have the article specifically telling us that Ghislaine, Trump, and Anouska immediately boarded a plane together for a weekend in Florida and after that Ghislaine installed Anouska in one of Trump’s homes.

That's interesting you read it as her being put in his house like a piece of furniture, I thought it meant Trump as a real estate magnate gave her an apartment. Anyway, Anouska is alive, has she said anything about Trump at that time?

"I can only speak for myself, and this is in no way to negate any other experiences that anyone else might have had with him, but, at no time did President Trump behave with any impropriety with me."

+ Show Spoiler +
Quoted from 6:40

"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26067 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-18 15:58:02
7 minutes ago
#107193
On November 19 2025 00:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2025 00:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 19:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)

I explained the importance of being able to identify whether your own senator was sufficiently fighting Trump/fascists ~9 months ago... When you initially presented this idea of replacing politicians that weren't sufficiently fighting Trump/fascists as your preferred strategy. You've demonstrated what I suspected/suggested at the time. That they were empty clichés that are hopeless

This year's major New Jersey election was the gubernatorial race, which held my attention because the Democratic primary was interesting and the general election appeared to be very close. Focusing on whether or not we'd have a MAGA governor took priority because it was an imminent threat, and thankfully it just ended with a Democratic governor being elected (although not my preferred Democrat).

On the other hand, Senator Cory Booker is up for re-election next year, not 9 months ago and not right now. I believe his primary is in June 2026. My desire to replace ineffective politicians does not need to match your personal, arbitrary timeline of *right-this-second-or-else-you're-full-of-shit-and-you-don't-truly-care-about-politics*.

Only you would go from literally writing "Hell yeah" in agreement to something I wrote to being *this close* to personally blaming me if Cory Booker doesn't get challenged in next year's primary, within the span of a few posts. I'm actually starting to wonder if you're purposely being antagonistic and purposely being terrible at persuading people, just so you can continue to stand alone atop (what you believe to be) a moral high ground.

I mean based on past evidence GH would struggle to sell tits to a frat house, it’s almost spectacular to witness.

He’s got an insane amount of feedback that he could use to adjust his pitches, and simply does not. Maybe he’s just atypically bad at it, maybe he just prefers the top of the ivory tower to be empty of other company, who knows?

The core problem is that his vision requires him, or a wider movement to be atypically good salespeople. You’re trying to break down an ingrained status quo, and people are generally reticent to abandon the familiar for the unknown, even if they think the unknown may be the better option.

And I mean, this particular corner of the internet is way, way more receptive to such ideas than Joe and Jane average ultimately. And you’re gonna need the latter for any real positive shift
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26067 Posts
1 minute ago
#107194
On November 19 2025 00:00 LightSpectra wrote:
"I think Trump would be a serial child molester and trafficker if he could take verbal credit for it" is an amazing take to defend the person you voted for.

That’s fucking wild
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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