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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 17 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2025 17:24 Acrofales wrote:On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for". USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not. + Show Spoiler +But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it! "Good ones" in this context would be people that can already choose to travel to Europe (in this case) and would relatively easily be accepted as immigrants (distinct from asylum seekers/refugees). I'm basically asking about USians that wouldn't be accepted as immigrants for various reasons. Less severe than being wanted by Interpol (but who knows what Trump might try lol) but not your typical tourists either. Maybe the "Tired...poor...huddled masses" types? Well then they wouldn’t? No European government is going to officially make it a matter of policy that the US is so shit that they’ll accept asylum claims. And it’s even less likely that Europeans start to operate some kind of Underground Railroad for Americans who can’t migrate via regular channels. Well then telling homeless trans teenagers and any other multitude of vulnerable people their best bet is to throw up their hands and run (but they won't take them in or fight for their asylum) pray is pretty cruel/obscene then right?
It's giving a sort of German ocean liner St. Louis vibe.
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On November 18 2025 00:16 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 23:52 Gorsameth wrote:On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. Republicans will 100% pretend like there is nothing. But enough has already been made public that there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children. They just don't care. Heck at this point the biggest Trump related revelation of the Epstein files is whether or not Trump gave Bill Clinton a blowjob. No doubt Trump raped underaged children? How do you get there? I don't think even the Comet Pizza conspiracy theorists had no doubt about the Clintons. A 2011 email sent by convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein says that United States President Donald Trump “spent hours” with one of the victims – an allegation that is likely to further fuel calls for releasing files relating to the late, disgraced financier. www.aljazeera.com
I'm sure a complete coincidence and he was just helping her with her homework.
Yes I have no doubt.
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On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.
This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.
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On November 17 2025 23:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 23:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Many Congressional Republicans are slowly walking back their pro-pedophile / pro-rapist positions on Trump and the Epstein files, and finally flipping in favor of releasing the information. Now that it appears that Congress's votes will not only agree to release the Epstein files but also possibly even be veto-proof, Trump has given in. He's done a 180 and is jumping on the bandwagon of releasing the files, undoubtedly hoping he can hide or dismiss or spin or redact whatever new information is revealed about him (not that his most ardent supporters would ever be convinced to leave his side anyway). "The president’s shift is an implicit acknowledgement that supporters of the measure have enough votes to pass it the House, although it has an unclear future in the Senate. It is a rare example of Trump backtracking because of opposition within the GOP. ... Lawmakers who support the bill have been predicting a big win in the House this week with a “deluge of Republicans” voting for it, bucking the GOP leadership and the president. ... The bill would force the Justice Department to release all files and communications related to Epstein, as well as any information about the investigation into his death in federal prison. Information about Epstein’s victims or ongoing federal investigations would be allowed to be redacted. “There could be 100 or more” votes from Republicans, said Rep. Thomas Massie, R-Ky., among the lawmakers discussing the legislation on Sunday news show appearances. “I’m hoping to get a veto-proof majority on this legislation when it comes up for a vote.” https://apnews.com/article/epstein-files-house-sex-trafficking-investigation-c46716743f6f65f2f3b74906365da58b My best guess is Trump knows what’s in there, and it ain’t good, hence the prior reluctance. But increasingly it’s not something he can dodge. It’s not exactly a prediction that takes much brainpower to make. It’s gonna be ‘look at those Dems, and I OKed it being released despite it painting me in a bad light too!’ That’s gonna be the pivot here. Hell, it may even work. I'm sure whatever Trump says, it will work for his cult followers, yeah. And I also can't fathom anything that would convince Republicans to remove Trump from office prematurely (and not just impeach him again), or anything that would get Trump actual jail time. He's already committed more felonies than 99.99% of Americans throughout the history of the country.
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How likely is it that the DOJ can hide some files from being released? To me, that seems the most obvious outcome. This gives them a nice delay and uncertainty, and many conspiracy theories will follow anyway.
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Northern Ireland26051 Posts
On November 18 2025 00:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On November 17 2025 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2025 17:24 Acrofales wrote:On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for". USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not. + Show Spoiler +But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it! "Good ones" in this context would be people that can already choose to travel to Europe (in this case) and would relatively easily be accepted as immigrants (distinct from asylum seekers/refugees). I'm basically asking about USians that wouldn't be accepted as immigrants for various reasons. Less severe than being wanted by Interpol (but who knows what Trump might try lol) but not your typical tourists either. Maybe the "Tired...poor...huddled masses" types? Well then they wouldn’t? No European government is going to officially make it a matter of policy that the US is so shit that they’ll accept asylum claims. And it’s even less likely that Europeans start to operate some kind of Underground Railroad for Americans who can’t migrate via regular channels. Well then telling homeless trans teenagers and any other multitude of vulnerable people their best bet is to throw up their hands and run (but they won't take them in or fight for their asylum) pray is pretty cruel/obscene then right? It's giving a sort of German ocean liner St. Louis vibe.
I’m not bloody Dumbledore I just can’t magic up solutions in contravention to current material realities.
There’s a pretty clear hierarchy of folks with claims to asylum, and a capacity to take them in, and Americans ain’t high on that list.
There’s a pretty clear hierarchy of potential landing spots for American asylum seekers in terms of practicality, including elsewhere in America, Europe ain’t exactly top of that list either.
There’s nothing to my knowledge that would legally preclude Americans from sheltering such folks, assuming they’re adults.
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On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant. "Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit. This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
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On November 18 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2025 00:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On November 17 2025 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 17 2025 17:24 Acrofales wrote:On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for". USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not. + Show Spoiler +But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it! "Good ones" in this context would be people that can already choose to travel to Europe (in this case) and would relatively easily be accepted as immigrants (distinct from asylum seekers/refugees). I'm basically asking about USians that wouldn't be accepted as immigrants for various reasons. Less severe than being wanted by Interpol (but who knows what Trump might try lol) but not your typical tourists either. Maybe the "Tired...poor...huddled masses" types? Well then they wouldn’t? No European government is going to officially make it a matter of policy that the US is so shit that they’ll accept asylum claims. And it’s even less likely that Europeans start to operate some kind of Underground Railroad for Americans who can’t migrate via regular channels. Well then telling homeless trans teenagers and any other multitude of vulnerable people their best bet is to throw up their hands and run (but they won't take them in or fight for their asylum) pray is pretty cruel/obscene then right? It's giving a sort of German ocean liner St. Louis vibe. I’m not bloody Dumbledore I just can’t magic up solutions in contravention to current material realities. There’s a pretty clear hierarchy of folks with claims to asylum, and a capacity to take them in, and Americans ain’t high on that list. There’s a pretty clear hierarchy of potential landing spots for American asylum seekers in terms of practicality, including elsewhere in America, Europe ain’t exactly top of that list either. There’s nothing to my knowledge that would legally preclude Americans from sheltering such folks, assuming they’re adults.
Yeah, Maybe we should advise them to find a nice place behind a bookcase in an office building and stay real quiet or something like that...
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant. "Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit. This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me. I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers. Hell yeah, better late than never!
Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?
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Wasn't there more pressure from the Reps to release the files? What if it's actually way worse or shows exactly what a disgusting dude he is.
I see it as a last hail mary we can use to teach the Republicans some humility. If this can't do it, if some of them can't turn because Trump is openly, explicitly mentioned in the big pedo report, we are actually doomed. That's basically the gist.
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On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant. "Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit. This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me. I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers. Hell yeah, better late than never! Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?
That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).
I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
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EPT
