• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:08
CET 22:08
KST 06:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview11Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win0RSL Season 4 announced for March-April4Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win StarCraft 2 Not at the Esports World Cup 2026 HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April HomeStory Cup 28 $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) KSL Week 85 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report
Brood War
General
Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? Liquipedia.net NEEDS editors for Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Let's Get Creative–Video Gam…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1719 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 5359

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5357 5358 5359 5360 5361 5482 Next
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23619 Posts
November 17 2025 21:03 GMT
#107161
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
November 17 2025 21:07 GMT
#107162
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

So are you involved in finding new homes for homeless trans teenagers in Trump’s America or not?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23619 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-17 21:49:14
November 17 2025 21:37 GMT
#107163
On November 18 2025 06:07 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

So are you involved in finding new homes for homeless trans teenagers in Trump’s America or not?

Me being involved in asking about homes for them is why you're asking me, isn't it?

Also, yes. It's among the endeavors the orgs I'm involved with work on. It's been a long slog. Especially when one considers that during the 2016 Democrat state convention I attended, we couldn't get Democrats to agree on trans women being recognized as women when it came to their existing gender distribution rules for leadership (I did help win that fight at the district level fwiw).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-17 23:11:25
November 17 2025 23:09 GMT
#107164
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23619 Posts
November 18 2025 00:32 GMT
#107165
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.

What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
November 18 2025 01:11 GMT
#107166
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
Show nested quote +
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I don't see how your response is related to what I had said, unless you're saying that the alternative primary challengers can only come from me. I am not a kingmaker. I am not interested in becoming a politician, nor am I interested in running my own version of America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them].

My understanding of where/when/why challengers appear does not make them appear. I will do research on whoever steps forward, I will advocate for my preferred candidate, and I will vote. I will continue to do more than the vast majority of other Americans do, and that is as much as I am willing to contribute. If you are willing to do more / other things, cool.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23619 Posts
November 18 2025 01:27 GMT
#107167
On November 18 2025 10:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I don't see how your response is related to what I had said, unless you're saying that the alternative primary challengers can only come from me. I am not a kingmaker. I am not interested in becoming a politician, nor am I interested in running my own version of America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them].

My understanding of where/when/why challengers appear does not make them appear. I will do research on whoever steps forward, I will advocate for my preferred candidate, and I will vote. I will continue to do more than the vast majority of other Americans do, and that is as much as I am willing to contribute. If you are willing to do more / other things, cool.

I'm skeptical you don't see it. I believe you do and prefer to set up this straw man about you being "kingmaker", and this silly "America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them]" instead because that's easier to incorporate into your existing worldview.

You're free to draw line of what you're willing to contribute wherever you like, it's just a huge part of why people rightfully identify the Democrat party and many ostensibly "progressives" as insufficient opposition to the fascist threat we're experiencing. Hence the "Democrats (and by proxy the rest of us) are doomed" sentiment that overwhelms any nonsense about Democrats winning back any significant power and meaningfully fixing anything.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
November 18 2025 01:31 GMT
#107168
On November 18 2025 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 10:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I don't see how your response is related to what I had said, unless you're saying that the alternative primary challengers can only come from me. I am not a kingmaker. I am not interested in becoming a politician, nor am I interested in running my own version of America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them].

My understanding of where/when/why challengers appear does not make them appear. I will do research on whoever steps forward, I will advocate for my preferred candidate, and I will vote. I will continue to do more than the vast majority of other Americans do, and that is as much as I am willing to contribute. If you are willing to do more / other things, cool.

I'm skeptical you don't see it. I believe you do and prefer to set up this straw man about you being "kingmaker", and this silly "America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them]" instead because that's easier to incorporate into your existing worldview.

You're free to draw line of what you're willing to contribute wherever you like, it's just a huge part of why people rightfully identify the Democrat party and many ostensibly "progressives" as insufficient opposition to the fascist threat we're experiencing. Hence the "Democrats (and by proxy the rest of us) are doomed" sentiment that overwhelms any nonsense about Democrats winning back any significant power and meaningfully fixing anything.

Okay. That's on you, not me.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23619 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-18 02:08:44
November 18 2025 01:53 GMT
#107169
On November 18 2025 10:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 10:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I don't see how your response is related to what I had said, unless you're saying that the alternative primary challengers can only come from me. I am not a kingmaker. I am not interested in becoming a politician, nor am I interested in running my own version of America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them].

My understanding of where/when/why challengers appear does not make them appear. I will do research on whoever steps forward, I will advocate for my preferred candidate, and I will vote. I will continue to do more than the vast majority of other Americans do, and that is as much as I am willing to contribute. If you are willing to do more / other things, cool.

I'm skeptical you don't see it. I believe you do and prefer to set up this straw man about you being "kingmaker", and this silly "America's Got Talent[ed Unknown Political Candidates Who Can Only Become Famous If I Personally Platform Them]" instead because that's easier to incorporate into your existing worldview.

You're free to draw line of what you're willing to contribute wherever you like, it's just a huge part of why people rightfully identify the Democrat party and many ostensibly "progressives" as insufficient opposition to the fascist threat we're experiencing. Hence the "Democrats (and by proxy the rest of us) are doomed" sentiment that overwhelms any nonsense about Democrats winning back any significant power and meaningfully fixing anything.

Okay. That's on you, not me.

I think ChristianS might be compelled to explain it, or perhaps someone else that I think would have a better chance at piercing whatever veil is preventing you from seeing it.

The gist of it is that small d democratic voters in general need to be able to identify which of their representatives are sufficiently fighting in their interests or democracy implodes on itself. That you think someone like yourself doesn't have to get involved in that until after primary candidates have been decided is reflective of a huge part of why/how democracy in the US is failing and on the verge of total/imminent collapse.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5861 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-18 07:13:09
November 18 2025 05:50 GMT
#107170
On November 18 2025 05:32 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 05:13 dyhb wrote:
On November 18 2025 03:14 oBlade wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:16 oBlade wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:52 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.
Republicans will 100% pretend like there is nothing. But enough has already been made public that there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children.

They just don't care.

Heck at this point the biggest Trump related revelation of the Epstein files is whether or not Trump gave Bill Clinton a blowjob.

No doubt Trump raped underaged children?

How do you get there? I don't think even the Comet Pizza conspiracy theorists had no doubt about the Clintons.
A 2011 email sent by convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein says that United States President Donald Trump “spent hours” with one of the victims – an allegation that is likely to further fuel calls for releasing files relating to the late, disgraced financier.
www.aljazeera.com
I'm sure a complete coincidence and he was just helping her with her homework.

Yes I have no doubt.

The [VICTIM] is Virginia Giuffre. How do you account for him getting away with it when the person referenced in the email, Virginia Giuffre, accused everyone else and then went under oath and in her memoir saying she didn't think Trump was involved with anything, and never witnessed anything?

Like your beyond all doubt evidence is a 14 year old email referencing something allegedly probably 25 years ago. Why is the meaning not
1) Epstein and Ghislaine in the middle of a court case being surprised Trump didn't know because having met Virginia, the accuser, 10 years before, she could have told him also, or
2) E. and G. being surprised Trump did know, but nevertheless didn't publicly "bark," or
3) E. and G. simply wondering to each other why Trump wasn't joining the public condemnations of E. at the time, as some people were and some people weren't, if you read the other emails it's a lot of "look at this article and who's shitting on you this time"

but rather the meaning is 100% he raped someone who said on the record he didn't rape her and that she never had any inkling he raped anyone involved.
When the whole stories relies on nobody looking up [VICTIM] to understand [She specifically said under oath that she didn’t think Trump was involved and never witnessed anything herself], you know it’s thin gruel out there. It’s a narrative of sexual abuse that is in search of evidence, and people that say “there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children” are beclowning themselves.

A real headline would read something like New Epstein emails conflict with Victim’s testimony, which invites the reader to judge whether they are more trusting of Epstein or Epstein’s victims.

You two might want to sit down, because I'm about to blow your minds!

Virginia Giuffre is not the only victim. So it entirely possibly that Trump didn't have sex with VG but did have sex with underage women as stated in the files.

What do you mean "as stated in the files?" As stated in what file? Is this a released file or one you presume exists and is hidden somewhere? Show us the file that stated that.

People forgot about Epstein for 4 years and have now memed him into a rape factory who spent every day raping children. This is a bit different than reality. He was rich, and also an asshole, and an insecure narcissist, and he typed like someone with an IQ of at most 85. He paid girls extremely generously for "massages" because he didn't want to admit he was paying for sex. He had multiple serial sugar daddy relationships of many young girls, over 18, which is what people of his ilk are wont to do. In the course of that, out of ignorance or opportunism or targeted predation, he trafficked or abused probably multiple girls under 18 also. The most disturbing I saw was the couple of French students like 12 or 13.

Take the Thanksgiving email for example that has been construed as evidence Trump met Epstein in 2017.
In an email exchange on Nov. 23, 2017, Faith Kates, the founder of NEXT Model Management, asked the disgraced financier and convicted sex offender where he was spending Thanksgiving.

Epstein replied, "eva," possibly a reference to his former girlfriend Eva Andersson-Dubin. Kates said that means "glenn" must be there, a likely reference to Glenn Dubin, Andersson-Dubin’s husband.

Kates then asked, "who else is down there?"

"David fizel. hanson. trump," Epstein replied.

Who is this David Fizel and how many children has he raped? Hanson? Glenn Dubin?.

"Mention" is just not enough at all. Trump is the most known figure in the world. He's the most mentioned name on Reddit and he's not a Redditor. He's the most mentioned name in this thread and he's never played Starcraft.

A reason people might not have come forward re:Epstein is related to notoriety. This network was mostly stealth rich people. Not that public. Even Prince Andrew, a royal in the UK, a US underage sex victim would possibly have no idea at the time. None of that applies to Trump, one of the most recognizable celebrities anywhere. If Trump raped you, you would be able to identify him. In 2016 a bunch of accusations came from adults. If you go by where there's smoke there's fire you at least need the accusations from the child victims.

On November 18 2025 05:13 dyhb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 03:14 oBlade wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:16 oBlade wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:52 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.
Republicans will 100% pretend like there is nothing. But enough has already been made public that there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children.

They just don't care.

Heck at this point the biggest Trump related revelation of the Epstein files is whether or not Trump gave Bill Clinton a blowjob.

No doubt Trump raped underaged children?

How do you get there? I don't think even the Comet Pizza conspiracy theorists had no doubt about the Clintons.
A 2011 email sent by convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein says that United States President Donald Trump “spent hours” with one of the victims – an allegation that is likely to further fuel calls for releasing files relating to the late, disgraced financier.
www.aljazeera.com
I'm sure a complete coincidence and he was just helping her with her homework.

Yes I have no doubt.

The [VICTIM] is Virginia Giuffre. How do you account for him getting away with it when the person referenced in the email, Virginia Giuffre, accused everyone else and then went under oath and in her memoir saying she didn't think Trump was involved with anything, and never witnessed anything?

Like your beyond all doubt evidence is a 14 year old email referencing something allegedly probably 25 years ago. Why is the meaning not
1) Epstein and Ghislaine in the middle of a court case being surprised Trump didn't know because having met Virginia, the accuser, 10 years before, she could have told him also, or
2) E. and G. being surprised Trump did know, but nevertheless didn't publicly "bark," or
3) E. and G. simply wondering to each other why Trump wasn't joining the public condemnations of E. at the time, as some people were and some people weren't, if you read the other emails it's a lot of "look at this article and who's shitting on you this time"

but rather the meaning is 100% he raped someone who said on the record he didn't rape her and that she never had any inkling he raped anyone involved.
When the whole stories relies on nobody looking up [VICTIM] to understand [She specifically said under oath that she didn’t think Trump was involved and never witnessed anything herself], you know it’s thin gruel out there. It’s a narrative of sexual abuse that is in search of evidence, and people that say “there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children” are beclowning themselves.

A real headline would read something like New Epstein emails conflict with Victim’s testimony, which invites the reader to judge whether they are more trusting of Epstein or Epstein’s victims.

The curious thing is the actual article linked, if read from beginning to end, also explains that itself without needing to look it up separately. The purpose of the article is simply the headline apparently.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3292 Posts
November 18 2025 06:10 GMT
#107171
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 00:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.

"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
Show nested quote +
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Josh Marshall over at TPM recently wrote a piece about more or less the question you’re asking. It’s paywalled but I’ll toss it in a spoiler if you’re interested.
+ Show Spoiler [Josh Marshall’s piece] +
The Status Interview—Or How To Write Up a Senate Purge List

Over the last couple days I’ve argued both that the denouement of the shutdown standoff was a flub and an embarrassment and also that the overall situation is going reasonably well. This isn’t defending the members of the Democratic caucus. I don’t need to defend or attack them because I’m mostly indifferent to them. I’m looking to a half-dozen year or more time horizon in which almost all the current senators need to be convinced to take a dramatically different approach to politics or purged from the ranks of elected office. Let’s call it Change or Purge. To me, from March to now was a big step forward. The way of operating during this shutdown was very different from what happened in March. And the way it ended — here I know many disagree with me — doesn’t negate what happened during the last five weeks, either in terms of the changed behavior or what was accomplished. This is a multi-course treatment. The results of the first course were encouraging. So, on to the remaining nine.

Since I’ve focused on this Change or Purge framework in this post I’d like to flesh out some of what that means. Of course a lot of this is either characterological or a way of using power. That can be hard to capture in bullet points or outside the context of a specific political situation. But there are a series of things senators support or don’t support that gives a clear indication of whether they are serious about confronting the challenge of the moment or battling back from Trumpism.

What does that mean? I think of it as: You live in a disaster zone. The floods and hurricanes are going to be twice as strong and three times as frequent going forward. So you’ve got to retrofit the house (this means legislation, mostly) and get in the habit of handling natural disasters (this means their approach to power). So what counts in this context? Here are five things I would want to ask and get an answer on from every Democratic senator or candidate. Think of it another way: You’re new management coming in to turn around a failing company. You want to sit down with every employee right after you take over to see if they’re part of the solution or part of the problem. That’s the Status Interview. Here are the five questions.

One: The filibuster. If you support keeping the filibuster you are not serious about moving the country forward in any positive direction. Unless you’re a Democratic senator from a red state — holding a seat probably no one else could hold — you should absolutely be primaried with the intent of removing you from office at the first opportunity. None of the legislation that is required to retrofit the house can happen with the filibuster in place. If you support the filibuster that means that your response to Trumpite autocracy is to do nothing and hope for the best. That’s unacceptable and you need to go. What’s so important about the filibuster question is not only how essential it is itself. It’s that there’s no reason not to do it. The filibuster is an historical accident which perverts how the Constitution is supposed to work. There are a number of things the moment requires which cut hard against our civic acculturation. They might not be justified in ordinary times but they are now. The filibuster isn’t anything like that. It should be a gimme. It’s a bad thing in every way. If you support the filibuster you are either a fraud, haven’t seriously considered the situation or don’t care. None of those three possibilities is acceptable.

Two: Supreme Court reform. I said above that some of the decisions are hard. They cut against a lot of what we were taught about political life. This is one of them. It’s only in the last three or four years that I’ve come around to the necessity of it and it’s still sometimes hard to get my head around. But it is essential. With the filibuster in place, no broader anti-authoritarian reform, no retrofitting the house is possible. It’s the same with the Supreme Court. The current Republican majority is thoroughly corrupt and has hijacked the Constitution. They have cut free not only from precedent but from any consistent or coherent theory of the Constitution, no matter how wrongheaded. The purpose of the high court is not to run the country. It is to render decisions on points of constitutional and legal ambiguity in a good faith and broadly consistent manner. It is now engaged in purely outcome-driven reasoning, mixing and matching doctrines and modes of jurisprudence depending on the desired ends, with the aim of furthering autocratic and Republican rule. That is the heart of the corruption. Passing laws doesn’t matter if they can and will be discarded simply because six lifetime appointees don’t like them. That’s a perversion of the constitutional order. I know this one is hard to swallow for many people. It doesn’t come easily to me either. But the facts of the situation and fidelity to the Constitution require it. I’m not going to get into the specific kind of reform here. There are various ways to go about it. You can judge it by the end result. If you are for leaving intact the corrupt Republican majority’s absolute control over the political and partisan direction of the country, you should leave or be driven from office.

From here the list becomes more diffuse. But that only shows the centrality of these first two questions. I would almost say that your list could be limited to these two things. They’re far from the only things needed. But the answers to those two questions will give you a pretty good indication of where someone would be on every other point. Still, the rest are important.

Three: Statehood. Making DC and Puerto Rico into states isn’t quite as essential as points one and two. They aren’t sine qua nons that stand in the path of anything else happening. But they’re very important. The most important reason for making DC and Puerto Rico states is that DC and Puerto Rico should in fact be states. (In any other advanced country it would seem bizarre if two jurisdictions just arbitrarily didn’t have the political rights as everyone else.) I lived in DC from 1999 to 2004. It was a bummer not having congressional representation. But the harm was largely notional, a matter of principle. In practice, life in DC wasn’t that different from Maryland or Virginia. What we’ve seen over the last year makes clear this is a very real harm and deprivation of rights, not at all theoretical thing. A renegade president can treat the district and its citizens as conquered territory. DC absolutely needs to be given the sovereignty and structural protections of statehood. The other issue is that making DC and Puerto Rico into states is a very legitimate opportunity to redress some of the current structural Republican advantage in the Senate. That’s good on principle and good politics. A hard swallow? Maybe. But if you’re not up for it I bet you won’t be up for a lot of critical things.

Four: Clearing the law books. As we’ve seen over the last year, the U.S. federal code is full of laws which assume the sitting president broadly supports the federal Constitution, civic democracy and the best interests of all American citizens. We know now that that is a dangerous assumption. There are lots of laws which grant the president vast powers if things get super weird. And the president is in charge of deciding whether they’re weird. A lot of this is the dirty work of the corrupt Republican majority on the Supreme Court. But a lot of the laws are genuinely far too ambiguous. We need to change all of those laws. That involves potentially creating different harms by weakening the presidency. There are cases when you want a president to be able to move expeditiously and effectively in emergencies. Laws will have to be revised with that contrary danger in mind. But right now the balance is far too much in the direction of presidential power. The president can’t be allowed to use the U.S. military (which most certainly includes the Guard) to overawe or effectively conquer states that don’t support him politically. Could a president still do this even with new laws in place? Possibly. But you need it to be crystal clear that when it does the president is violating black letter federal law as well as the Constitution.

Five: Outlaw extreme gerrymandering. A couple things here require explanation. I say “extreme” gerrymandering. And that may sound like I’m okay or we should be okay with some gerrymandering. That’s not it exactly. I say this because there is no objectively correct map. All legislative maps involve decisions and advantages here or there. I add “extreme” as a matter of realism more than license. But it is essential to have a federal legal framework governing how maps can be legitimately drawn. They cannot be drawn for partisan advantage, to disempower or empower one racial group over another or one region over another. Again there are no perfect maps and no perfect rules. But it cannot be a free-for-all. Because of the corrupt Republican majority on the court it’s now a free-for-all. This may seem off-message or hypocritical since Democrats across the country are now rushing to gerrymander their maps. There’s no contradiction whatsoever. You can’t have one set of rules in one part of the country and a different one in another. This is an opportunity to state a far broader principle: you cannot have Democrats responsible for winning power and saving the republic and simultaneously responsible for honoring a set of norms the right has already destroyed. That’s not how it works. That’s not how you should think it should work if you’re serious about using power and know what using it requires. Every representative elected on a gerrymandered map should be committed to supporting a real federal gerrymandering law. And that is a reminder of the centrality of filibuster and Supreme Court reform. Without the first, there’s no federal law. And without the second the law is meaningless since it will simply be rejected by the corrupt Republican majority for some made-up reason.

I thought of various other things to add here. But these are more than enough to separate the senatorial wheat from the chaff. It’s not an exhaustive list. It’s not intended to be. It’s a list to help people make sense of whether a senator or a Senate candidate is ready to at least try to rein in Trumpism and plot a course forward for the American republic.

I’ve tried to be general because I’m not trying to make up a list of how to remake the country based on the Josh agenda. My goal here is more to identify central problems and help people think clearly about whether a given elected official is serious about addressing those problems. I would even say that perhaps someone shouldn’t be written off simply because they disagree with one of these points. But if I were evaluating a Senate candidate or senator, I would say that if they reject one of these five checklist points the burden is on them to provide a serious explanation of a credible path to retrofitting the house that doesn’t require it. I’m all ears because I don’t have all the answers. But I doubt you can do it without these steps. I would genuinely like to hear an alternative to Supreme Court reform. I just don’t think it exists. And if your answer is just hand waving and talk, leave or be driven from office.


But TL;DR his list is:
  • End the filibuster
  • Supreme Court reform
  • Statehood for DC and Puerto Rico
  • Clear the law books of all the “declare an emergency” powers granted to the executive
  • Ban extreme gerrymandering

That list is obviously focused on addressing more foundational problems with American government systems (and, it’s hard not to notice, boosting the electoral chances of Democrats). Ending the filibuster, limiting gerrymandering as much as possible, and ending lifetime appointments for SCOTUS are all a bit more long-term and not directly responsive to “how are we gonna stop the current administration’s abuses?”

Personally I think ending ICE should be a requirement to be in the coalition at this point. It’s just too clear at this point that they’re totally lawless and unaccountable, and gleefully so; even if you think strong border enforcement at the federal level is important, we’ve just got to take this agency out behind the barn. Anybody giving “few bad apples” rhetoric has no place in the opposition.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
November 18 2025 10:28 GMT
#107172
On November 18 2025 15:10 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 05:01 WombaT wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

Why do you want to primary them? Do you want to do so because you think it’ll make a vaguely similar platform win with a better quality of candidate, or do you want a completely different platform that you think can also win and is a better platform?
Those are good questions for DPB and other people who believe it is a viable strategy moving forward. I look forward to seeing their answers...

On November 18 2025 05:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 01:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
"Dems are doomed" is the takeaway there I think. Epstein files are a sort of "last gasp" in a painfully long agonal breathing fit.

This does feel a bit like the Mueller kabuki/WWE to me.

I can see the parallels there, yeah. The Mueller report led to dozens of indictments, established significant Russian interference, and even identified 10 ways that Trump personally obstructed justice, yet Trump never really experienced serious consequences. Same goes for his 34 felony convictions or his total of 88 criminal charges or his bragging about preying on children or sexually assaulting women. Doing illegal and immoral things hasn't ever stopped Trump before, so why should this be any different? Dems are wrong if they think Trump will eventually be toppled by the Epstein files; Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers.
Hell yeah, better late than never!

Can we turn that into a reasonable metric for primaries in 2026 and beyond?

That works for me, for both the primary elections and the general elections. Hopefully Trump doesn't decide to run for a third term, so I would implore Dems to focus less on him (the past/present) and focus more on the future. I also hope they make a concerted effort to outline a helpful, positive, pro-left agenda (similar to Mamdani and Sanders), as opposed to running a campaign that's just anti-right / anti-Republican (even as many Democrats still ultimately run against MAGA Republicans).

I'd go so far as to say that even when running against an incumbent (either for Congress or for the presidency), the messaging should still be at least mostly positive and mostly aimed towards things you want to implement and improve, as opposed to having mostly anti-opposition messaging.
I think you misunderstand.

I'm asking if we can turn your assertion that
Dems should instead be energizing and galvanizing the left instead of trying to convince the right that they're gullible cult followers
into a metric for who to primary in 2026.

As in, can we look at who is doing which and use that as a reasonable metric to determine which Democrats need to be primaried in 2026? I'm also curious if you (or any Democrat supporters) can identify any Democrats that need to be primaried in 2026 based on that or any other metric?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I think we can use it as a metric for who to primary in 2026. In my opinion, just because a seat is already blue doesn't mean it can't be a better version of blue. I hope that more left-wing progressive politicians are willing to challenge moderate-left incumbents, and if that happens in elections that I can vote in, I'll happily support those further-left progressive challengers.
I don't have the time or bandwidth right now to look into future seats that I hope will soon be challenged + Show Spoiler +
during the next election cycle, but when they do happen in spaces where I can vote (local, state, national), I pay attention to who's running and try to help whoever I consider to be the best option.

You're not alone. Which is a major contributor to why it doesn't happen/hasn't happened often enough to work at scale. It takes people like you (who already spend more time and bandwidth than most investigating and discussing politics) making time and bandwidth for it.

It's also part of why I've been asking you about Booker. How does he score on your metrics for if he needs to be primaried or not? Your metrics are pretty useless/hopeless if you can't/refuse to apply them to your own Senator in 2026.

Otherwise it's basically just another iteration of the hollow/useless rhetoric I described before

This question is irrelevant because I'm not in charge of whether or not a candidate gets primaried. I don't get to choose who gets primaried and who doesn't. When the time comes for him to run for re-election, and if/when he has to run against an alternative primary challenger, I'll assess how he "scores on my metrics" and compare that to how his opponent "scores on my metrics" in 2026. It's on a relative scale, between two or more actual candidates. I'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. And as I said at the very beginning, this should be done "for both the primary elections and the general elections". (This also is nothing new, and it's what all of us have been doing for years already.)


That failure to recognize where those "alternative primary challengers" come from and when/why they are necessary is part of why your rhetoric about your metrics are really just empty clichés that are hopeless at actually making the changes in the Democrat party that you ostensibly want.

It's not just you that thinks like this. It's basically every "improve the Democrats from within" type I've ever encountered (that hasn't abandoned the party at this point) that is waiting for a "bridge" to cross, instead of doing the obviously necessary work to build it.

Then when the bridge doesn't magically manifest or (despite other people's hard work) is less prefered than the established road (to apocalyptic climate catastrophes among others), the "only rational choice" is to choose the scenic route to apocalypse over the shortcut offered by the other party.

As ChristianS suggested,
...In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire.


I'd add (and I think ChristianS might agree?) that we all have to work on identifying who these politicians that aren't sufficiently fighting are prior to the date to file for a primary so we can plan accordingly. If they don't/won't retire, then they should be primaried.

I also think I might agree! I mean I don’t begrudge DPB wanting to focus on his own representatives and/or specific (rather than abstract) candidates, but at the same time I think it’s perfectly valid for me to say “Chuck Schumer should be replaced as caucus leader” even though I don’t have an alternative leader in mind and I’m not one of the people who gets to vote on that. And if I ask someone if they agree and they say “well, I don’t get a vote on that” that feels like a dodge.

Sure. And if you ask a voter what their perspective is on politician X and the voter tells you that they honestly haven't yet had a chance to research the politician to the extent they're satisfied with / to the extent you're looking for - but that the voter is definitely going to do a deep dive into politician X soon, and the voter would be happy to get back to you with their thoughts on politician X when they have more time - it might not be the most persuasive move for you to then condescendingly lecture that voter on how the voter's eventual assessment is probably nothing more than "empty clichés that are hopeless" and that the voter is actually "refusing to apply metrics" just because they don't immediately have an answer the moment you asked them a question. (When I write "you", I'm not referring to you, ChristianS.)
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
896 Posts
November 18 2025 12:15 GMT
#107173
On November 18 2025 05:57 KwarK wrote:
VG was trafficked from Mar-a-Lago though. Thats where she had a massage job as a child. Mar-a-Lago is where Maxwell and Epstein were hunting for vulnerable children and found her. The narrative that there is no overlap between Trump and Epstein preying on VG gets a little weird when you remember that Trump and Epstein were best friends and that Epstein got VG from Trump. The friendship isn’t in dispute. The location of the meeting isn’t in dispute. The timeline isn’t in dispute.

So let us dismiss the idea that Trump wasn't in any way associated with it. He was a part of the pipeline, without Mar-a-Lago there's no VG Epstein meeting. But let us instead assume that he didn't know that Maxwell and Ghislaine were trafficking girls. The problem we have with that is the 1997 newspaper article that describes Anouska De Georgiou, one of Epstein's underage rape victims, being set up with Trump by their mutual friend, Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/How suite! Trump's Brit of all right.-a061140675
Show nested quote +
After their meeting, Trump flew Madam Maxwell and the model south to the sunshine state, where all three enjoyed a happy weekend together. When they returned to New York, Anouska was installed in one of Donald's many apartments there.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.threads.com/@beingliberal/post/C4nvJperkt0/media?hl=zh-hk


The girl's name is Anouska De Georgiou. She was one of Epstein's rape victims.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-british-teen-model-was-lured-jeffrey-epstein-s-web-n1056901

Now it's possible that we can't trust the source behind the newspaper article. The Sunday Mirror is a bit of a gossip rag, we don't necessarily know who they heard it from. The newspaper is printing stories about Ghislaine Maxwell but we don't know if they researched those stories or spoke to anyone close to Ghislaine. We might guess based on the fact that the Sunday Mirror was owned by Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell, but I guess we can't know.


Ok, Anouska first. According to your own link she was 20 at the time she started some sort of relationship with Trump. Wouldnt be exactly first time ever when young girl has relationship with old rich guy.

As for Giuffre (which I believe was the "redacted as a victim" in the particular email, mentioning Trump spending hours with. Giuffre I think quite few times mentioned that Trump didnt do anything to her. ( https://abcnews.go.com/US/virginia-giuffre-trump-jeffrey-epstein/story?id=127468657)

Also one of the reasons Trump gave for breaking his ties with Epstein is the fact that he was poaching his spa workers (other being Epstein behaviour toward teenage daughter of the club member), whether it is true or not I cant know, it does seem somewhat plausible though.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2025/jul/31/what-we-know-about-the-trump-epstein-falling-outow/

There is few things which seem to paint Trump as more on the innocent side regarding Epstein (not saying he is innocent I simply cant know that):

He cut ties with Epstein before it become trendy

This is what victim lawyer, Brad Edwards said about Trump:

"Asked about Epstein's relationship with Trump he replied: "The only thing I can say about President Trump is that he is the only person who in 2009, when I served a lot of subpoenas on a lot of people, or at least gave notice to some pretty connected people that I wanted to talk to them, he is the only person who picked up the phone and said 'lets just talk, I'll give you as much time as you want, I'll tell you what you need to know.'

Edwards said Trump: "Was very helpful in the information he gave and gave no indication whatsoever that he was involved in anything untoward whatsoever but had good information that checked out and that helped us and that we didn't have to take a deposition of him.""

https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-victims-attorney-talks-about-donald-trump-claims-1857298

Democrats sat on those files for 4 years, do you really think that if there was something damning about Trump, it wouldnt somehow leak before the election? I find the idea improbable.

When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:

"First openly LGBT president was Republican"
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
November 18 2025 12:30 GMT
#107174
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:
"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

This doesn't make any sense. Not only was Trump not open about his alleged giving-of-fellatio to President Clinton, but Clinton would be in the same boat about his alleged receiving-of-fellatio from Trump, and Clinton was president before Trump. If Trump is/was bisexual, then Clinton is/was too, unless you're taking the position that it's only gay if you give head, not receive head? (Bill Clinton was a Democrat.)
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
November 18 2025 12:41 GMT
#107175
On November 18 2025 21:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:
"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

This doesn't make any sense. Not only was Trump not open about his alleged giving-of-fellatio to President Clinton, but Clinton would be in the same boat about his alleged receiving-of-fellatio from Trump, and Clinton was president before Trump. If Trump is/was bisexual, then Clinton is/was too, unless you're taking the position that it's only gay if you give head, not receive head? (Bill Clinton was a Democrat.)

I mean based on Bill’s own past testimony he’s definitely established that he doesn’t count oral as a sexual act.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
November 18 2025 12:45 GMT
#107176
On November 18 2025 21:41 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 21:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:
"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

This doesn't make any sense. Not only was Trump not open about his alleged giving-of-fellatio to President Clinton, but Clinton would be in the same boat about his alleged receiving-of-fellatio from Trump, and Clinton was president before Trump. If Trump is/was bisexual, then Clinton is/was too, unless you're taking the position that it's only gay if you give head, not receive head? (Bill Clinton was a Democrat.)

I mean based on Bill’s own past testimony he’s definitely established that he doesn’t count oral as a sexual act.

So then there's still no openly gay / openly LGBTQ+ president.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22078 Posts
November 18 2025 12:51 GMT
#107177
On November 18 2025 21:41 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 21:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:
"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

This doesn't make any sense. Not only was Trump not open about his alleged giving-of-fellatio to President Clinton, but Clinton would be in the same boat about his alleged receiving-of-fellatio from Trump, and Clinton was president before Trump. If Trump is/was bisexual, then Clinton is/was too, unless you're taking the position that it's only gay if you give head, not receive head? (Bill Clinton was a Democrat.)

I mean based on Bill’s own past testimony he’s definitely established that he doesn’t count oral as a sexual act.
"given the narrow definition of sexual act as defined by opposing council during the questioning"
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
896 Posts
November 18 2025 13:32 GMT
#107178
On November 18 2025 21:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:
"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

This doesn't make any sense. Not only was Trump not open about his alleged giving-of-fellatio to President Clinton, but Clinton would be in the same boat about his alleged receiving-of-fellatio from Trump, and Clinton was president before Trump. If Trump is/was bisexual, then Clinton is/was too, unless you're taking the position that it's only gay if you give head, not receive head? (Bill Clinton was a Democrat.)



Difference is Trump still can come out as a LGBT president, has about 3 years to do it, Clinton cant anymore be openly LGBT sitting president.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45252 Posts
November 18 2025 13:35 GMT
#107179
On November 18 2025 22:32 Razyda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 21:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:
"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

This doesn't make any sense. Not only was Trump not open about his alleged giving-of-fellatio to President Clinton, but Clinton would be in the same boat about his alleged receiving-of-fellatio from Trump, and Clinton was president before Trump. If Trump is/was bisexual, then Clinton is/was too, unless you're taking the position that it's only gay if you give head, not receive head? (Bill Clinton was a Democrat.)

Difference is Trump still can come out as a LGBT president, has about 3 years to do it, Clinton cant anymore be openly LGBT sitting president.

Being "openly LGBT" doesn't mean "being outed / getting caught", and you never said "sitting president", but sure.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43542 Posts
November 18 2025 13:52 GMT
#107180
On November 18 2025 21:15 Razyda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2025 05:57 KwarK wrote:
VG was trafficked from Mar-a-Lago though. Thats where she had a massage job as a child. Mar-a-Lago is where Maxwell and Epstein were hunting for vulnerable children and found her. The narrative that there is no overlap between Trump and Epstein preying on VG gets a little weird when you remember that Trump and Epstein were best friends and that Epstein got VG from Trump. The friendship isn’t in dispute. The location of the meeting isn’t in dispute. The timeline isn’t in dispute.

So let us dismiss the idea that Trump wasn't in any way associated with it. He was a part of the pipeline, without Mar-a-Lago there's no VG Epstein meeting. But let us instead assume that he didn't know that Maxwell and Ghislaine were trafficking girls. The problem we have with that is the 1997 newspaper article that describes Anouska De Georgiou, one of Epstein's underage rape victims, being set up with Trump by their mutual friend, Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/How suite! Trump's Brit of all right.-a061140675
After their meeting, Trump flew Madam Maxwell and the model south to the sunshine state, where all three enjoyed a happy weekend together. When they returned to New York, Anouska was installed in one of Donald's many apartments there.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.threads.com/@beingliberal/post/C4nvJperkt0/media?hl=zh-hk


The girl's name is Anouska De Georgiou. She was one of Epstein's rape victims.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-british-teen-model-was-lured-jeffrey-epstein-s-web-n1056901

Now it's possible that we can't trust the source behind the newspaper article. The Sunday Mirror is a bit of a gossip rag, we don't necessarily know who they heard it from. The newspaper is printing stories about Ghislaine Maxwell but we don't know if they researched those stories or spoke to anyone close to Ghislaine. We might guess based on the fact that the Sunday Mirror was owned by Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell, but I guess we can't know.


Ok, Anouska first. According to your own link she was 20 at the time she started some sort of relationship with Trump. Wouldnt be exactly first time ever when young girl has relationship with old rich guy.

As for Giuffre (which I believe was the "redacted as a victim" in the particular email, mentioning Trump spending hours with. Giuffre I think quite few times mentioned that Trump didnt do anything to her. ( https://abcnews.go.com/US/virginia-giuffre-trump-jeffrey-epstein/story?id=127468657)

Also one of the reasons Trump gave for breaking his ties with Epstein is the fact that he was poaching his spa workers (other being Epstein behaviour toward teenage daughter of the club member), whether it is true or not I cant know, it does seem somewhat plausible though.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2025/jul/31/what-we-know-about-the-trump-epstein-falling-outow/

There is few things which seem to paint Trump as more on the innocent side regarding Epstein (not saying he is innocent I simply cant know that):

He cut ties with Epstein before it become trendy

This is what victim lawyer, Brad Edwards said about Trump:

"Asked about Epstein's relationship with Trump he replied: "The only thing I can say about President Trump is that he is the only person who in 2009, when I served a lot of subpoenas on a lot of people, or at least gave notice to some pretty connected people that I wanted to talk to them, he is the only person who picked up the phone and said 'lets just talk, I'll give you as much time as you want, I'll tell you what you need to know.'

Edwards said Trump: "Was very helpful in the information he gave and gave no indication whatsoever that he was involved in anything untoward whatsoever but had good information that checked out and that helped us and that we didn't have to take a deposition of him.""

https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-victims-attorney-talks-about-donald-trump-claims-1857298

Democrats sat on those files for 4 years, do you really think that if there was something damning about Trump, it wouldnt somehow leak before the election? I find the idea improbable.

When it comes to Trump performing fellatio on Clinton, I soooo want it to be true. I would login everyday here just to post:

"First openly LGBT president was Republican"

I have a problem with Trump fucking one of Epstein’s sex slaves, even if he didn’t do it until after she was too old for Epstein. If Epstein rapes her until she turns 18 and then Maxwell offers Trump a turn then that’s not somehow fine.

But in any case the fact remains that there is contemporary documentation showing that Epstein/Maxwell were providing girls for Trump. So we can dismiss the “they were just good friends but he wasn’t involved in the sex” suggestion. He was involved in the sex.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Prev 1 5357 5358 5359 5360 5361 5482 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 52m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 279
Nathanias 48
Temp0 42
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3309
Mini 139
Shuttle 121
Dewaltoss 118
firebathero 84
yabsab 17
NaDa 12
soO 11
910 11
League of Legends
C9.Mang0128
Counter-Strike
fl0m3621
adren_tv24
Other Games
Grubby3300
Beastyqt658
mouzStarbuck295
Liquid`Hasu208
summit1g121
ArmadaUGS116
ZombieGrub43
KnowMe35
Harstem20
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 25 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 255
• StrangeGG 91
• musti20045 40
• Reevou 7
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 36
• HerbMon 29
• Eskiya23 11
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2971
• WagamamaTV534
• lizZardDota286
• Noizen59
League of Legends
• imaqtpie2255
• Jankos1895
• TFBlade1066
• Shiphtur372
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 52m
Wardi Open
14h 52m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 3h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RongYI Cup
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-01
HSC XXVIII
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Proleague 2026-02-02
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W7
Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.