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On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave).
Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date.
The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets.
I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd.
That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for".
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On November 16 2025 23:33 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Idk there’s some quote from micro you’re basing that on? Something about the shutdown being “do or die” for the Democrats? I mean micro can speak for himself if he wants to, but I don’t really see why this moment of cowardice would be any more final than previous ones. They didn’t actually give up any formal power, we’re going again on this thing in January apparently. “Do or die” sounds like an apt description to me, but I’d be looking both more narrowly and more broadly with it – broadly, in that opposing the fascists in this whole era is more important than this one shutdown fight, and narrowly in that it’s a test being applied individually to each person in any position of power. A lot of Democratic senators (as well as public and private leaders and elites across the country) seem like they just want a cushy job they can look busy at while enjoying the pleasures of elite living. Senators in particular seem like they might just want to keep a quality of senior care that is otherwise nearly unobtainable in America. They don’t want a battle for the soul of the country or whatever. In more stable times maybe that could be tolerated, but in this moment we don’t have room for complacency. If someone can fight, they should do it, if they can’t they should retire. Tim Kaine might be a good dad or drinking buddy or even policy wonk, but if he’s not prepared to fight he should get out of the way and let someone else in who is. The Dem leadership is most obviously untenable here, because it seems pretty clear the official list of senators who caved was carefully chosen to stave off this exact form of backlash. So Schumer has got to go, I just don’t see how he could be trusted at this point. Everyone else in the Cave Caucus (who may or may not be publicly admitting their membership) is at a minimum eyed with suspicion, but I just can’t imagine letting Schumer continue to lead.
The specific quote that no one disagreed with was: On November 08 2025 09:49 micronesia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Republicans have just strongly rejected the softened Democratic offer for a one-year extension to the health care tax credits in exchange for what republicans are asking for. Not, "that doesn't quite work," but rather an implied, "Wait, you think we're going to give you anything other than a promise that we can renege on later? Nope." Democrats really have no choice, it seems. Either dig in, or never have power again. The GOP is making that abundantly clear.
You put them losing the functional power of the filibuster this way: On November 10 2025 02:00 ChristianS wrote:
Nah, if they wanna nuke the filibuster let em. The “promise to negotiate” thing is worth exactly nothing, and by the time you’re accepting total capitulation just to prevent nuking the filibuster you’ve already lost wherever power the filibuster gives you.
I think I more or less agree with the rest of the post. Fetterman being a good example of bragging about his healthcare while being responsible for millions of people functionally going without any.
Schumer needs to be out of leadership already and Democrats that agree don't even have to wait for his election. They can remove him from leadership whenever they want and/or expose Democrats he helped protect with the carefully curated public facing "Cave Caucus".
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Bribing Trump seems such an obvious answer to many things, really. Unfortunately, it is another option that cannot be openly discussed. I would love to see a golden king's spectre be given to him with some on-the-nose name, like the spectre of the American Emperor.
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What a wild world we live in where MTG is the voice of reason within the Republican party.
Might be a glimmer of hope, when a true believer flips. Doubtful given his history, but the Epstein stories seem to be cracking MAGA a bit. Some of the extra crazy MMA guys have started to turn on Trump. If Rogan goes that could be huge.
If not at least we can laugh at all the Bill Clinton/Trump Meme's.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave).
Don’t threaten me with a good time! I kid.
Yes, the American people themselves are quite a pertinent factor. It would seem quite important to factor that into one’s analysis.
The structure doesn’t help either, but to overhaul that you need a wide appetite to do so, and it ain’t there.
Too much of the country is actively A-OK with American Fascism. Too much will grudgingly tolerate it, and too much of the country’s yearning for something different is merely a return to something approaching normalcy. Which isn’t a horrific aspiration, but rather requires some radical shit to actually do in the current climate. Which folks don’t tend to support beyond the abstract.
This isn’t to dunk on Americans, but I mean it is what it is. This millennium, and especially the last 10-15 years you are absolutely seeing a growing far right threat in Europe. Including the UK increasingly.
But there are differences too. For one, the buy-in isn’t quite as pronounced, and it’s certainly not as cultish as MAGAism. Secondly, the general mechanics of things politically make it easier to push away. A Le Pen always does well in the earlier rounds of the French Presidential election, and then when it comes to a straight shoot-out, France tells them to fuck off. It’s a dance as old as time itself.
Reform are doing depressingly well here, least in terms of polling. Many of us aren’t ruling out them outright carrying that into a majority in the Commons next election, or, having first dibs at making a coalition, and it seems unlikely that, in the latter scenario, that the Conservatives would turn down a spot in as the minority coalition.
That could very well happen, but for the aforementioned reasons even if that does, I think it ends up looking different. The proportion of Reform zealots may be somewhat in the same ballpark as the MAGA ones, but the proportion of ‘fuck right off’ is higher. Even among conservatives, which is probably a key difference between the two countries right now as it pertains to right populism. The British centre is well, more central. I’d say the wider British left isn’t all that different to that Stateside, there’s probably a bit more of it, and a larger tradition of it over here, but it’s not completely incomparable.
The same mechanisms that are pretty bad at transferring the political sensibilities of the country to Westminster are also less fucked, which helps. We’ve a multi-party system that trends towards a de facto 2 party one in terms of governance. In the US, well it’s basically entirely a two party equation.
We’re years out now, and I think the old adage that a week’s a long time in politics, in the current Information age we’re probably down to days if not hours. But folks are already talking about swallowing pride and principle and tactically voting just to keep Reform out.
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On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for".
USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not.
But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it!
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On November 17 2025 17:24 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for". USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not. + Show Spoiler +But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it! "Good ones" in this context would be people that can already choose to travel to Europe (in this case) and would relatively easily be accepted as immigrants (distinct from asylum seekers/refugees).
I'm basically asking about USians that wouldn't be accepted as immigrants for various reasons. Less severe than being wanted by Interpol (but who knows what Trump might try lol) but not your typical tourists either. Maybe the "Tired...poor...huddled masses" types?
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On November 17 2025 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 17:24 Acrofales wrote:On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for". USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not. + Show Spoiler +But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it! "Good ones" in this context would be people that can already choose to travel to Europe (in this case) and would relatively easily be accepted as immigrants (distinct from asylum seekers/refugees). I'm basically asking about USians that wouldn't be accepted as immigrants for various reasons. Less severe than being wanted by Interpol (but who knows what Trump might try lol) but not your typical tourists either. Maybe the "Tired...poor...huddled masses" types?
Maybe diplomatic relations will deteriorate to the point that Americans can't just travel here with their visa waived, and then apply for asylum. I'll then still be pro-freedom-of-movement. So don't worry about me. I'm a big proponent of the tired, poor, huddled masses being allowed to move wherever they think their life might be better. Whether those tired, poor, huddled masses are in the Ukraine, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Haiti, or the USA.
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Many Congressional Republicans are slowly walking back their pro-pedophile / pro-rapist positions on Trump and the Epstein files, and finally flipping in favor of releasing the information. Now that it appears that Congress's votes will not only agree to release the Epstein files but also possibly even be veto-proof, Trump has given in. He's done a 180 and is jumping on the bandwagon of releasing the files, undoubtedly hoping he can hide or dismiss or spin or redact whatever new information is revealed about him (not that his most ardent supporters would ever be convinced to leave his side anyway).
"The president’s shift is an implicit acknowledgement that supporters of the measure have enough votes to pass it the House, although it has an unclear future in the Senate. It is a rare example of Trump backtracking because of opposition within the GOP. ... Lawmakers who support the bill have been predicting a big win in the House this week with a “deluge of Republicans” voting for it, bucking the GOP leadership and the president. ... The bill would force the Justice Department to release all files and communications related to Epstein, as well as any information about the investigation into his death in federal prison. Information about Epstein’s victims or ongoing federal investigations would be allowed to be redacted. “There could be 100 or more” votes from Republicans, said Rep. Thomas Massie, R-Ky., among the lawmakers discussing the legislation on Sunday news show appearances. “I’m hoping to get a veto-proof majority on this legislation when it comes up for a vote.” https://apnews.com/article/epstein-files-house-sex-trafficking-investigation-c46716743f6f65f2f3b74906365da58b
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Russian Federation188 Posts
I am genuinely interested in Epstein files - will Trump really show them to the public?
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If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.
How is that any different from now?
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United States43538 Posts
On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.
There’s more than enough already public Trump/Epstein links.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 17 2025 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 17:24 Acrofales wrote:On November 17 2025 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 18:57 Acrofales wrote:On November 16 2025 17:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 16 2025 17:03 Acrofales wrote:
Demand congress impeach him? Third time's the charm! I feel like skipping past how Democrats gave up their last bits of functional power after capitulating entirely on the shutdown does us all a disservice if we're going to talk seriously in any capacity about what to do/the future. Okay, fine. Riot and lynch your congresspeople who refuse to act in good faith? That what you wanted to hear? I mean, my faith in American politics crashed and burned ages ago. But my faith in the American people to dig themselves out of that mess is possibly even lower. I mean, these are the same American people who elected Trump for a second term in the first place, right? At some point you just have to pray for a miracle (or as JJR likes to say: leave). Let's not pretend I haven't offered the best electoralism plan for Democrats presented here to date. The best you get from Dem supporters is some variation of "win the primaries against the bad Democrats over time" but when you press them for a metric to determine the "bad Democrats" for 2026 you get crickets. I've also asked about whether people like you would advocate taking in people from the US as refugees, and to clarify if we're all welcome or if just "the good ones" would be allowed? Basically crickets from the "run for your life" crowd. That people recognize and act on the necessity of socialism to help guide us out of this mess (not as a perfect solution, but the "lesser evil" to capitalism for those that like that framing) is the "miracle" I'm "praying for". USians crossing the Atlantic in leaky boats would be a crazy development, but I think I've said before that I am a huge proponent of migration in general. You'll need to specify the "good ones" a bit more, though: if you're on the Interpol red list, then maybe not. + Show Spoiler +But why exactly do you need my approval? Do you think our customs control gives a shit about what I said on TL.net? If you have an American passport you can just fly in without worrying about what I think. You already have a leg up on almost all other refugees: Ukrainians, Sudanese, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians, etc. all have to worry about how to even get to Spain (Europe) before they can apply for asylum. If you don't mind, for the moment I'll continue to try to support those peoples' rights to stay, instead of worrying about what Vox would think about USian refugees. But if you feel you need the "welcome" of a random dude on the internet to flee your country as a refugee, then I guess you have it! "Good ones" in this context would be people that can already choose to travel to Europe (in this case) and would relatively easily be accepted as immigrants (distinct from asylum seekers/refugees). I'm basically asking about USians that wouldn't be accepted as immigrants for various reasons. Less severe than being wanted by Interpol (but who knows what Trump might try lol) but not your typical tourists either. Maybe the "Tired...poor...huddled masses" types?
Well then they wouldn’t? No European government is going to officially make it a matter of policy that the US is so shit that they’ll accept asylum claims.
And it’s even less likely that Europeans start to operate some kind of Underground Railroad for Americans who can’t migrate via regular channels.
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On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. Republicans will 100% pretend like there is nothing. But enough has already been made public that there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children.
They just don't care.
Heck at this point the biggest Trump related revelation of the Epstein files is whether or not Trump gave Bill Clinton a blowjob.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 17 2025 23:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Many Congressional Republicans are slowly walking back their pro-pedophile / pro-rapist positions on Trump and the Epstein files, and finally flipping in favor of releasing the information. Now that it appears that Congress's votes will not only agree to release the Epstein files but also possibly even be veto-proof, Trump has given in. He's done a 180 and is jumping on the bandwagon of releasing the files, undoubtedly hoping he can hide or dismiss or spin or redact whatever new information is revealed about him (not that his most ardent supporters would ever be convinced to leave his side anyway). "The president’s shift is an implicit acknowledgement that supporters of the measure have enough votes to pass it the House, although it has an unclear future in the Senate. It is a rare example of Trump backtracking because of opposition within the GOP. ... Lawmakers who support the bill have been predicting a big win in the House this week with a “deluge of Republicans” voting for it, bucking the GOP leadership and the president. ... The bill would force the Justice Department to release all files and communications related to Epstein, as well as any information about the investigation into his death in federal prison. Information about Epstein’s victims or ongoing federal investigations would be allowed to be redacted. “There could be 100 or more” votes from Republicans, said Rep. Thomas Massie, R-Ky., among the lawmakers discussing the legislation on Sunday news show appearances. “I’m hoping to get a veto-proof majority on this legislation when it comes up for a vote.” https://apnews.com/article/epstein-files-house-sex-trafficking-investigation-c46716743f6f65f2f3b74906365da58b
My best guess is Trump knows what’s in there, and it ain’t good, hence the prior reluctance. But increasingly it’s not something he can dodge.
It’s not exactly a prediction that takes much brainpower to make. It’s gonna be ‘look at those Dems, and I OKed it being released despite it painting me in a bad light too!’ That’s gonna be the pivot here.
Hell, it may even work.
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On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable.
What do you mean? Nothing's gonna change either way, even if the Epstein files are completely about Trump being an immoral monster. The Democrats giving in to the Republicans during the government shutdown was way worse off for Democrats (and the American people) than anything that could be in the Epstein files. Separate from anything related to Epstein, we already know that Trump raped people, preyed on children, committed nearly a hundred crimes, and is a fascist and racist and sexist and terrible human being, yet he still has a large amount of support from Republicans. Epstein won't change or add anything significant.
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Trump is going to claim to want them released and then the DOJ is going to say they can't due to ongoing investigations (which Trump just ordered into Democrats). Trump will throw up his hands and say, "What can I do? Justice department says I can't release them." He literally pulled this same shit with his tax returns... "couldn't release because I'm under audit."
It's all lies all the way down with his administration and he wants just enough deniability on the whole thing.
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On November 17 2025 23:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 23:29 Uldridge wrote:
If the Epstein files have nothing though, the Dems are doomed and Trump becomes untoucheable. Republicans will 100% pretend like there is nothing. But enough has already been made public that there is no doubt Trump raped underaged children. They just don't care. Heck at this point the biggest Trump related revelation of the Epstein files is whether or not Trump gave Bill Clinton a blowjob.
No doubt Trump raped underaged children?
How do you get there? I don't think even the Comet Pizza conspiracy theorists had no doubt about the Clintons.
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EPT
