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On June 25 2018 14:57 NewSunshine wrote:
GH explains it well enough. The response of Trump's base to Hillary's out-of-context deplorable quote was to brandish it as a weapon, as a point of pride rather than a critique, and to guard their feelings, so they wouldn't have to face the reality of the positions they support. It's way easier to live with yourself, having voted for Trump, by saying those filthy Lefties did it to themselves, by "making" them vote for Trump.
People often don't change from outside criticism, especially if it is are to something they identify closely with.
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United Kingdom9761 Posts
On June 25 2018 12:38 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 11:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 25 2018 11:15 Wulfey_LA wrote:
On the one hand, fuck your feelings leftist! Get over it! MAGA!
On the other hand, think of the tender Trumpist snowflakes. Why should they have to defend Trump policies on the merits?
Going full blown cry baby snowflake and demanding civility would be a plausible strategy if the Republican party didn't run and win an election for a guy (Trump) who built an entire ideology (and policy set) around being uncivil and directly attacking people on a personal basis.
Yeah once the Republicans elected Trump, all bets were off. You don't walk into a meeting room and drop a rotting corpse on the table and then cry because people won't stop complaining about the corpse. I guess the "you made us into what we are now" is developing a resurgence. I say this saddened by people I once believed to be above the fray (though in political disagreement). Honestly, it's one primary election and one general election and it appears to be the left clutching their pearls and then reacting with hate and anger. Do you even have agency anymore? Are you owning the term "reactionary" or "the resistance?" Is your political life really reduced to the characterization of a 'dropped rotting corpse' and it justifying your actions in response to it? The backdrop was the description of driving people out of society for not sharing their politics and you're off saying all bets were off after Trump's election. This is seriously disturbing.
I think you are misunderstanding me.
There is literally no way of engaging in debate around the Trump presidency sensibly, because everything about Trump is a ridiculous cartoon of evil. I would wager that a healthy proportion of right wingers in the US voted for Trump out of nothing more than a desire to see 'libtard tears'. Now they're getting exactly that and realizing its not the joyous occasion they thought it would be..
Its sad that you think we should treat Trump just like a real politician, and treat his election as business as usual. Electing Trump was a statement that debate and dialogue are dead. If a whole country is going to be so completely moronic as to elect someone because they're not afraid to be racist, ableist etc. in front of tv cameras then you have to deal with the consequences of that. Very little is unjustifiable when faced with such a stupid situation.
On June 25 2018 12:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 12:02 mozoku wrote:The bar for comparisons with Nazis and the label "morally irredeemable" has really dropped in the past 10 (or is it just 2?) years it seems. Gay marriage was favored by a minority of the current "Resistance" party as recently as 2009. Were they deserving of Nazis comparisons then? I don't recall Obama calling his voters Nazis. Are racist incidents towards African-Americans noticeably higher today? It would be the first I've heard of it. Has American behavior actually changed significantly, or has American political rhetoric changed significantly? Sure, there have been examples of proposed and actual racist/xenophobic policies under Trump, but is it any more common or greater on severity than it was under, say, Nixon or Reagan? Did their opponents compare them to "morally irredeemable Nazis"? Has not significant social/human progress occurred since then without (until recently) radicalizing American political discourse? The current President retweeted racist Nazi propaganda authored by this Nazi. + Show Spoiler +When pressed he can't bring himself to condemn Nazis if they're also Trump supporters, insisting that some are very fine people and that both sides are to blame for the neo-Nazi terrorist attack. He calls immigrants animals, he shits on the justice system, he's constantly whining about the lying press, he calls for political violence against his opponents. I could go on. At a certain point conservatives will need to come to terms with the Nazi president thing and move to justifications about why he was the lesser of two evils and how they never fully supported him anyway. There's only so many times that a man can promote Nazi propaganda before you start to think he might be a Nazi (for me that number is 1). I don't think things were as bad in terms of Nazism in the past. Obviously a lot of presidents were massive racists, but most of them since WWII were old enough to remember that you should try not to emulate Hitler.
When I see interviews with American nazis and they are saying they feel welcome in Trump's America and they are celebrating the fact that he is encouraging them, it pretty much says all you need to know.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Europe is currently having the exact same debate over refugees and restrictions policies, but--again--it's only the US Republican party that is somehow regularly associated with Nazis for having a nationalist strain. Hell, Erdogan got reelected today and Xi Jinpeng appointed himself dictator for life several months so (both on nationalist platforms btw) and neither of them even got the Nazi comparison.
I mean... if you want to be more like China or Turkey then I guess that's your funeral. It's kind of redundant to compare either of them to nazis, they both do plenty bad enough on their own.
Duno about the merits of comparing the GOP as a whole to nazis but I don't think the lack of comparing turkey or china to nazis is a very strong argument against it.
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On June 25 2018 15:21 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 12:35 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 12:09 mozoku wrote:
You're both missing the point. I'm questioning the long-term wisdom of justifying childish behavior by pointing at the other side's childish behavior. Especially when the previous model had a pretty good track record. Good track record? I didn’t have to worry about Nazis literally killing people at protests 5 years ago. Now that is a thing and they are fine people. You want civility back, pray for an end to the Trump administration. Because his entire brand is dividing the country. Also we have people being put in camps on mass for minor crimes. People who don’t want to be compared to Nazis shouldn’t select a group of people, charge them all with minor crimes and then jail them indefinitely. And then say none of those people deserve due process. The comparisons write themselves at that point. Right P6 no progress has been made on the last 40 years because of an incident at a protest earlier this year. Gay marriage wasn't legalized. Women aren't graduating college at higher rates than men, and the wage gap hasn't vanished at the entry-level. Our last president wasn't black. Acceptance of transgender individuals hasn't been rising. Racist attitudes haven't been declining.Your understanding of trends is evidently pathetic. ---------- On to your second paragraph: The Nazis are surely vilified because they detained illegal immigrants at the border for an average of 44 days. Starting WW2 and carrying out the Holocaust were just icing on the cake to you, amirite Plansix? That's the legitimate implication of your assertion. The Nazis weren't the first nationalistic party, nor were they the last. If you were looking for honest comparisons, there's one hundred other nationalist/restrictionist movements to pick from. But I guess that wouldn't have the same dramatic effect, would it? But whatever, since the other side is acting like children than it's totally fine for you and your ilk to as well. Right? "When they go low, we go slightly less low!" Europe is currently having the exact same debate over refugees and restrictions policies, but--again--it's only the US Republican party that is somehow regularly associated with Nazis for having a nationalist strain. Hell, Erdogan got reelected today and Xi Jinpeng appointed himself dictator for life several months so (both on nationalist platforms btw) and neither of them even got the Nazi comparison. There is no standard that holds across time nor national borders where cries of "Nazism" and "morally irredeemable" aren't inconsistent. This "GOP = Nazi" meme is something that needs to be taken behind the barn and shot. You're (and this applies to most posters here) not changing anyone's mind by being blatantly disingenuous. You're just part of the machine that whips up Democratic turnout and further poisons the discourse/state of politics in this country (as Russia has evidently also figured out). The fact that the GOP has Fox News that serves the same function doesn't excuse your participation in the vicious cycle.
Not every Trump supporter is a nazi, but every nazi is a Trump supporter. People on the right just LOVE to hammer the left over antifa and BLM, they don't get to whine and whinge when their feet get held to the fire over their own political allies.
It's also frankly sickening that the right wing posters here will defend, ignore and attempt to downplay how often Donald Trump has expressed praise for and openly retweeted and supported actual legitimate fascists or defending neo-nazis in the United States of America.
Stop pretending you want civil discourse, while putting full support behind the forces that are ending it once and for all. Stop blaming Democrats for literally everything when the Republicans have full control of congress and the President is throwing children in cages when he could... you know... NOT DO THAT. And I don't even want to hear about how he changed his mind, he did that under overwhelming public pressure, and for no other reason.
This is the wages of pushing things too far. Your President - the President of the Republicans, voted for by Republicans, put in power by Republicans, supported by Republicans (and even less savoury individuals), rationalised by Republicans, justified by Republicans - has picked fights with the disabled, referred to immigrants as an infestation, thrown children in cages, openly stated that he wishes he could go without trials and these pesky 'laws' when dealing with immigrants, praised Xi Jinping for having lifetime power and wondered if he shouldn't do the same, is a big supporter of one of your biggest geopolitical enemies, started a trade war with all your allies, attacked Puerto Ricans racially while they were in the middle of a natural disaster, was the key figure (and inventor of?) the birther movement, AND THAT'S A SMALL LIST.
Stop talking about the high road when you have all the power to take it and your leaders are using that power to drive things six feet under at every turn.
Own what you made. Stop being such complete moral cowards.
EDIT: To part of what you said Mozuku; yep, the last President was black, and things have been improving. And boy do Republicans just hate that. So much so they elected this to try and 'fix' it.
Also, obviously I'm among the leftish posters in this thread, but I've said several times I don't have a dog in the race since I'm not that fond of your Democrats. Here's a simple truth: If any Conservative Prime Minister tried a tenth of the shit Trump has gotten away with and which Republican voters and posters in this thread support, his or her own backbenchers would rebel instantaneously and toss them out on their ear. As well they should, because our world leaders should be held to higher standards of behaviour than our alcoholic uncle who gets racist when he's drunk.
It's a shame Republicans don't agree with that. Hopefully you'll learn from this experience, if your country isn't irrevocably damaged by Trump's Presidency by the time it's over.
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We don't have anyone on this forum who's going to own Trump, all the regulars have a mechanism not to do that (I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative/libertarian etc). Some of them didn't even vote for him like Intro if I recall and so have no reason to own him.
In a way a story like the one at red hen triggers those types of mechanism, because the reason why they don't go full resistance despite not being the biggest fans of Trump is that they just hate liberals way more. Which I'd like to explore because it makes little sense, but I doubt it's really going to happen.
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On June 25 2018 18:31 Nebuchad wrote:
We don't have anyone on this forum who's going to own Trump, all the regulars have a mechanism not to do that (I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative/libertarian etc). Some of them didn't even vote for him like Intro if I recall and so have no reason to own him.
In a way a story like the one at red hen triggers those types of mechanism, because the reason why they don't go full resistance despite not being the biggest fans of Trump is that they just hate liberals way more. Which I'd like to explore because it makes little sense, but I doubt it's really going to happen.
Oh of course they do. That's why it's moral cowardice. Never defend, always attack, especially in the face of your side doing something indefensible.
Hate, unfortunately, is the word. It's no longer a disagreement, it's outright hatred. The other side - and yes both sides are doing this, though I think one is more justified than the other - believes their foe is literally trying to destroy America. The problem is that only one side is in the position to actually do it, and is cheerily working to do so day in day out.
I'm beginning to wonder when the next civil war is going to break out.
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On June 25 2018 19:08 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 18:31 Nebuchad wrote:
We don't have anyone on this forum who's going to own Trump, all the regulars have a mechanism not to do that (I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative/libertarian etc). Some of them didn't even vote for him like Intro if I recall and so have no reason to own him.
In a way a story like the one at red hen triggers those types of mechanism, because the reason why they don't go full resistance despite not being the biggest fans of Trump is that they just hate liberals way more. Which I'd like to explore because it makes little sense, but I doubt it's really going to happen. Oh of course they do. That's why it's moral cowardice. Never defend, always attack, especially in the face of your side doing something indefensible. Hate, unfortunately, is the word. It's no longer a disagreement, it's outright hatred. The other side - and yes both sides are doing this, though I think one is more justified than the other - believes their foe is literally trying to destroy America. The problem is that only one side is in the position to actually do it, and is cheerily working to do so day in day out. I'm beginning to wonder when the next civil war is going to break out.
Honestly splitting US into two might not be the worst idea, although a large enough pain to actually implement that a civil war is realistically the only way that's going to happen (Which I don't see happening any time soon).
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And, how do you split it?
The liberal coasts vs Heartland + South?
That would be kinda funny... One really, really, really rich country and one with failing infrastructure but tons of guns, FREEEDOM and "business friendly policies".
Just to see how such a country would blow up, would be kinda entertaining  .
The US is a federal state... There is no need for splitting. Just serious reform when it comes to the political and voting system would most likely be able to solve most of the issues.
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Honestly after a lot of thought and introspection I've taken the GH "red pill". It took a while but society is fucked and nobody in any position to change things actually wants to change them.
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I kinda find it interesting that this devolved into "us vs them" again, in regards to that restaurant story.
Sarah Sanders wasn't kicked out because she's republican. She got kicked out because she's an active supporter of retarded, immoral politics - and also actively supports, spreads and defends blatant lies by the stable genius.
Nowhere was it said that she got kicked out because she's a republican - it was a republican making that claim in the first place. Lets be honest here, i'd argue McCain would've not been kicked out. You know, also republican, and an actual conservative (from my perspective). A mostly decent one. The restaurant owner made it clear that she doesn't support the lying, racist and dishonest regime that is currently in the white house (literally) - republicans instantly stormed off and tried to put that shoe on immediately, making clear that the white house behaviour/policies are in fact republican behaviour/policies.
I'm not entirely sure how a republican can go to someone who just said "i don't support lying, racist, bigoted, immoral dickheads" and argue "well you're out for republicans then!!!1".
It's absolutely delightful really, if you think about it.
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On June 25 2018 17:22 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +Europe is currently having the exact same debate over refugees and restrictions policies, but--again--it's only the US Republican party that is somehow regularly associated with Nazis for having a nationalist strain. Hell, Erdogan got reelected today and Xi Jinpeng appointed himself dictator for life several months so (both on nationalist platforms btw) and neither of them even got the Nazi comparison. I mean... if you want to be more like China or Turkey then I guess that's your funeral. It's kind of redundant to compare either of them to nazis, they both do plenty bad enough on their own. Duno about the merits of comparing the GOP as a whole to nazis but I don't think the lack of comparing turkey or china to nazis is a very strong argument against it.
Among Jinping, Erdogan, and Trump, only one of the three has supporters who sport swastikas, preach white nationalism, and publicly praise Mein Kampf, so the failure of critics in terms of comparing the former two with Nazis makes some sense, common threads of fascist nationalism notwithstanding.
On June 25 2018 20:18 m4ini wrote:
I kinda find it interesting that this devolved into "us vs them" again, in regards to that restaurant story.
Sarah Sanders wasn't kicked out because she's republican. She got kicked out because she's an active supporter of retarded, immoral politics - and also actively supports, spreads and defends blatant lies by the stable genius.
Nowhere was it said that she got kicked out because she's a republican - it was a republican making that claim in the first place. Lets be honest here, i'd argue McCain would've not been kicked out. You know, also republican, and an actual conservative (from my perspective). A mostly decent one. The restaurant owner made it clear that she doesn't support the lying, racist and dishonest regime that is currently in the white house (literally) - republicans instantly stormed off and tried to put that shoe on immediately, making clear that the white house behaviour/policies are in fact republican behaviour/policies.
I'm not entirely sure how a republican can go to someone who just said "i don't support lying, racist, bigoted, immoral dickheads" and argue "well you're out for republicans then!!!1".
It's absolutely delightful really, if you think about it.
In other words, Sanders was judged not by the color of her skin nor her nationality, but for the content of her character. 
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On June 25 2018 08:10 Danglars wrote:
A wonderful failure of comparison.
First off McCain is not a member of the administration. He is not a member of Trump's cabinet.
He is a Senator. Its his job to represent his constituents in Congress regardless of who happens to be in the White House.
If his constituents had demands that were morally reprehensible to him I would expect him to either ignore them and make them vote him out or resign.
The Press Secretary has no duty to constituents and instead knowing and willingly accepted and continues to accept the role of lying to the American people and to publicly defend the deplorable actions of the President in front of the world.
People can be held responsible for the choices they make and that is the thing (some) Republicans are missing here.
One shouldn't not judge others for their skin, gender, disability or sexual orientation but one can most certainly be judged on the choices they knowingly and willingly make in their life
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It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad!
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On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad!
it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs.
but such is the path the republicans choose.
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The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism.
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On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that.
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On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that.
You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force.
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On June 25 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force.
It was pretty clear to me that y’all weren’t up to having an adult conversation on that one. So yeah, no thanks.
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On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that.
Because you completely missed my point.
My point is that if people disagree about minor and insignificant things, how can they possibly agree on important things?
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United Kingdom9761 Posts
On June 25 2018 22:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force. It was pretty clear to me that y’all weren’t up to having an adult conversation on that one. So yeah, no thanks.
TBF the criticism of the restaurant that threw Sanders out and the people who supported it was hardly 'adult' in nature, focusing as it did on a completely different case with completely different talking points.
In other news, Trump's trade war looks like its going to be great for jobs.
Jobs in Australia, Thailand, India and Brazil anyway.
Harley-Davidson plans to shift some motorcycle production away from the US to avoid the "substantial" burden of European Union tariffs.
Last week the EU introduced retaliatory tariffs on US goods, including bourbon, orange juice and motorcycles.
Wisconsin-based Harley-Davidson has assembly plants in Australia, Brazil, India and Thailand.
The company said it will raise investment in its international plants, but did not say which ones.
"To address the substantial cost of this tariff burden long-term, Harley-Davidson will be implementing a plan to shift production of motorcycles for EU destinations from the US to its international facilities to avoid the tariff burden," the company said in an official filing to the US market regulator.
According to Harley-Davidson the tariffs have added, on average $2,200 (£1,660) to each bike exported to the EU from the US.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44604280
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EPT![[image loading]](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/img/charles/2015/11/22/LGF1827.jpg)
