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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 340

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
June 25 2018 02:06 GMT
#6781
On June 25 2018 09:18 micronesia wrote:
Be careful what you wish for everyone. A few years in the future when, perhaps, when Democrats control much of the government, and many conservative Americans are unhappy with the state of politics, there may be a sudden push for any establishment operated by a conservative to never serve representatives of the government. The conservative pundits will say "this is exactly how the previous administration was treated," the liberal pundits will say, "that was different, our party isn't being evil!" and people in the middle will sigh and say, "I knew this would happen."

I'm partway with you. People within the conservative movement hated what Obama did, but didn't harass his officials at restaurants to drive them out or surround their houses to make them fearful for leaving them. The Tea Party also did none of these things.

The actions and their widespread defense are absolutely a further step in the wrong direction. The premise seems to be how partisan and crazy-apocalyptic you are about the actions of the current administration. If the nation is one step from the precipice, it justifies resisting in the most anti-civilizational ways you can conjure up. My contention is the new rules from the left is that most anything is justified once you work yourself into a frenzy about the current political opposition. Opposition administration figures can't eat in restaurants. They get spit on in theatres. Their homes are surrounded. A Democratic congresswoman wants to block Trump officials from retailers. That's not a road you want to go down. Trust me.

Meanwhile, it rallies more supporters to Trump. New York Times writeup, Bethany Mandel+ Show Spoiler +
The Left is pushing me to MAGA, and only Trump himself is keeping me from embracing it --author's preferred headline
.

People on the right are deciding on high road or low road right now. The easiest action is just to reflexively announce support on Trump until his opponents exhaust themselves (read the articles, seriously, if you have any questions on this point. + Show Spoiler [NYT] +
LEESBURG, Va. — Gina Anders knows the feeling well by now. President Trump says or does something that triggers a spasm of outrage. She doesn’t necessarily agree with how he handled the situation. She gets why people are upset.

But Ms. Anders, 46, a Republican from suburban Loudoun County, Va., with a law degree, a business career, and not a stitch of “Make America Great Again” gear in her wardrobe, is moved to defend him anyway.

“All nuance and all complexity — and these are complex issues — are completely lost,” she said, describing “overblown” reactions from the president’s critics, some of whom equated the Trump administration’s policy of separating migrant children and parents to history’s greatest atrocities.

“It makes me angry at them, which causes me to want to defend him to them more,” Ms. Anders said.

In interviews across the country over the last few days, dozens of Trump voters, as well as pollsters and strategists, described something like a bonding experience with the president that happens each time Republicans have to answer a now-familiar question: “How can you possibly still support this man?” Their resilience suggests a level of unity among Republicans that could help mitigate Mr. Trump’s low overall approval ratings and aid his party’s chances of keeping control of the House of Representatives in November.

“He’s not a perfect guy; he does some stupid stuff,” said Tony Schrantz, 50, of Lino Lakes, Minn., the owner of a water systems leak detection business. “But when they’re hounding him all the time it just gets old. Give the guy a little.”

Republican voters repeatedly described an instinctive, protective response to the president, and their support has grown in recent months: Mr. Trump’s approval rating among Republicans is now about 90 percent. And while polling has yet to capture the effect of the last week’s immigration controversy, the only modern Republican president more popular with his party than Mr. Trump at this point in his first term, according to Gallup, was George W. Bush after the country united in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

Mr. Trump has also retained support across a range of demographics other than the working-class voters who are most identified with him. This includes portions of the wealthy college-educated people in swing counties, like Virginia’s Loudoun, in the country’s most politically competitive states.

Many of these voters say their lives and the country are improving under his presidency, and the endless stream of tough cable news coverage and bad headlines about Mr. Trump only galvanizes them further — even though some displayed discomfort on their faces when asked about the child separation policy, and expressed misgivings about the president’s character.

“It bothers me that he doesn’t tell the truth, but I guess I kind of expect that, and I expect that from the media, too — not to always tell the truth or to slant it one way,” said Julie Knight, 63, a retired personal injury case manager from Algona, Wash.

The increasingly tribalized politics on the left and right have helped insulate Mr. Trump from the paroxysms that have jolted his party and eroded longstanding expectations of restraint, humility and honesty in American presidents. This era of tumult has left Democrats energized and determined to win back Congress and act as a check on Mr. Trump, and their intensity has been reflected by strong turnouts in the primaries so far. But still, in just the last year and a half, Mr. Trump has bounced back from crises that at the time seemed as if they might be too severe for him to recover politically.

He tried to unilaterally bar visitors from several Muslim countries from the United States, angering U.S. allies and provoking clashes with Congress and the courts over the limits of executive power. He praised some “very fine people” at a deadly white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., in remarks that shook some members of his cabinet so deeply that they considered resigning. He defended Roy S. Moore, a Senate candidate in Alabama who was accused of fondling teenage girls, by suggesting that the allegations were old and possibly made-up.

And so as another immigration crisis of his own making smoldered this past week, critics inside and outside Mr. Trump’s party predicted another devastating, irremediable low point in his presidency. Yet many Trump voters said that they no longer had the patience or interest to listen to what they see as another hysterical outburst by Democrats, Republican “Never Trumpers” and the media.

“It’s kind of like when you experience a sensation over and over and over again,” said Daniel Arnold, 32, a warehouse manager from Leesburg, Va., about an hour outside Washington. “A sensation is no longer a sensation. It’s just, ‘Oh, here we are again.’”

For many Republicans, the audio of children sobbing at a migrant detention center barely registered, because these voters don’t pay attention to the left-leaning and mainstream media that have covered the family separation crisis far more than their preferred channel, Fox News.

“I think it’s terrible about the kids getting split up from their parents. But the parents shouldn’t have been here,” said Lynn Dittbenner, 65, of Elk River, Minn., who took the day off from relaxing with her family at their lake cabin to hear the president speak at a rally in Duluth on Wednesday.

Others said they saw a ploy by the president’s enemies to obscure news that was more favorable to him, like the internal Justice Department investigation that recently uncovered evidence of F.B.I. officials speaking disparagingly of Mr. Trump.

“It’s just incredible what the nation is trying to do to disrupt this president and his agenda,” said Jeff Butts, 58, an unemployed sales manager from Leesburg. “We don’t get to hear about that. We only get to hear about the crying babies on the border.”

Sometimes they seized on made-up or erroneous story lines that were mostly absent from the mainstream media.

“Those cages and those families — that was actually filmed during the Obama administration, not the Trump administration,” said Clayton Smith, 57, a commercial lending underwriter from Cary, Ill., a Chicago suburb.

Mr. Smith was correct about one image. He was referring to a story that was covered widely in the conservative media over the last few weeks about one of President Obama’s former speechwriters who tweeted a picture of immigrant children sleeping in a chain-link pen. “This is happening right now,” the tweet said, despite the fact that the picture was from 2014 when Mr. Obama was president. (He later deleted it and acknowledged the error.)

As isolated as those examples are, they are validating for people who believe their political beliefs are constantly held under a microscope and vilified.

“I don’t have friends anymore because I’ve switched parties,” said Judy Brana, 66, a retired music and art teacher from St. Cloud, Minn., who left home at 10:30 on Wednesday morning to make the two-and-a-half-hour drive up to Duluth for the president’s rally.

“Friends I’ve had for 40 years,” she added. “It’s insane, that’s what I’ll tell you.”

Another factor that seems to be driving up support is a sense that no one is acknowledging Mr. Trump’s successes, which they see as manifold, historic and irrefutable.

“Let’s see,” said John Westling, 70, of Princeton, Minn., reciting a list of the president’s accomplishments that he said no one in the media wants to talk about. “Economy booming, check. Unemployment down, check. Border security being addressed, check. Possible end to the Korean War that started when I was 3 years old, 68 years ago, check.”

“I suspect that if Trump walked across Lake Mille Lacs,” Mr. Westling added, “the media would announce, ‘Trump can’t swim!’”

As measured by the Gallup daily presidential approval tracking poll, Mr. Trump has averaged 87 percent job approval from fellow Republicans in his second year in office, up from 83 percent in his first year. And during the past two weeks, his approval rating hit 90 percent with Republicans.

Yet some say their patience with Mr. Trump’s divisive style is not limitless. Gary Winthorpe, a 17-year-old high school student who was on his way to see the president speak in Minnesota on Wednesday, said he hopes that the first vote he casts for president in 2020 is for Mr. Trump. But he acknowledged being wary at times, aware of protests against the president.

“I’m not blindly for Donald Trump,” he said. “I have a fair bit of skepticism toward him. But I feel like he is trying his best.”

Mr. Trump fared much worse than prior Republican candidates among well-educated and affluent white voters, and became the first Republican to win the presidency while losing white college graduates. But he nonetheless won considerable support among college-educated and affluent voters. He retains much of that support today. According to a Pew Research survey this month, approximately 31 percent of Trump approvers are white men without a college degree, and 66 percent are either college graduates, women or nonwhite.

According to Gallup, Mr. Trump’s popularity with college-educated voters has remained about equal to his popularity with Americans overall this year.

There is some evidence that Mr. Trump’s base of support may have shrunk slightly, though. In recent polls from Gallup and Morning Consult, the numbers of people who identified as Republicans were about 2 percentage points smaller than they were in early 2017.

Among Democrats, Mr. Trump’s initial approval has been historically low, failing to reach 15 percent since he took office. Presidents have traditionally come in with at least a moderate amount of support from the opposing party.

Just as Mr. Trump has changed the makeup of the Republican coalition, he also appears to have helped change the views of the people who support him.

Republicans appear to have developed more forgiving views on morality and public service in recent years, for example. In 2011, one in three Republicans thought an elected official who commits immoral acts in private life could act ethically in public life, according to a Public Religion Research Institute/Brookings survey. By 2016, seven out of 10 did. The trend was especially pronounced among white evangelicals, who strongly supported Mr. Trump and went from being the least likely to the most likely to agree that a candidate’s personal immorality had nothing to do with public service.

The percentage of Republicans who say they have a favorable view of Vladimir Putin, the Russian president for whom Mr. Trump has repeatedly expressed fondness, has doubled from 2015 to 2017 to 24 percent, according to Gallup. Among Democrats, Mr. Putin’s popularity has plummeted.

Even if Mr. Trump wasn’t at the center of the national conversation, Ms. Anders, the Loudoun County business executive, said she thinks that the country would still be polarized. But as long as he is, she said, people on the right and the left will probably continue to dig in based on what Mr. Trump does and how his opponents respond.

“It all coalesces around Trump,” she said. “It’s either, ‘Trump wants to put people in cages, in concentration camps.’ Or, on the other side, ‘Oh the left just wants everybody to come into the country illegally so they can get voters.’”

She concluded: “We can’t have a conversation.”
+ Show Spoiler [The Forward] +
uring the election, the deluge of hate that came my way when I expressed my disapproval of then-candidate Donald Trump was so violent that I purchased a gun.

But these days, the vitriol is coming from the other side. Chance the Rapper, for example, was was eviscerated online for suggesting that “Black people don’t have to be democrats,” and eventually pressured into apologizing. His comment came after Kanye West faced a firestorm of criticism after tweeting in support of Donald Trump. Earlier this year, country singer Shania Twain, a Canadian, also felt the need to apologize for stating that, were she an American citizen with voting rights, would have voted for Trump.

Expressing anything resembling support for the Trump administration has become nothing short of a taboo. And while these backlashes are hardly the same as the tweets I would get threatening my family during the election, they do raise the question, should Americans really be publicly shamed and bullied into apologizing for stating that they support the President of the United States?

There is more than a chance that this could spectacularly backfire.

During the primary season and general election, I was a vocal conservative against Trump. I could not fathom how anyone could possibly support such an oaf, such a bully, for President.

But I’m starting to understand.

*

Before the election, The Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf published a dialogue he had with a 22-year old Trump supporter living and working in Silicon Valley. How could such a man possibly support then-candidate Trump, was the question Friedersdorf put to him. “For me personally, it’s resistance against what San Francisco has been, and what I see the country becoming, in the form of ultra-PC culture,” the Trump supporter told him. “That’s where it’s almost impossible to have polite or constructive political discussion. Disagreement gets you labeled fascist, racist, bigoted, etc.”

This backlash against political correctness is what got Donald Trump elected. Not only do Trump’s voters continue to believe his level of political correctness is correct, but surveys consistently find the highest correlation between being anti-P.C. and supporting Trump, stronger even than feelings about immigration. According to a survey in ClearThinking.org covered in Reason, believing “there is too much political correctness in this country” was the second most reliable predictor for whether someone would vote for Trump (the first was party affiliation).

It’s not just on national issues, either. In a survey conducted for their book on the populist revolt that led to Trump’s election, “The Great Revolt”, Salena Zito found that 85% of Trump voters wanted the United States to make our own decisions on major issues and challenge other nations to follow our example.

We’ve seen how that unwillingness to adhere to traditional political norms has paid off in dividends internationally. Every President has been told that he simply cannot move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, and watching Trump thumb his nose at that convention has been refreshing for many conservatives including myself.

So it’s ironic that the very cause of Trump’s election — the over-policing of discourse to conform to liberal notions of political correctness — has reached a fever pitch in the wake of his election.

By PC culture, I don’t mean things like the very positive fact that we can’t call minorities ugly epithets anymore. I mean liberals defining what counts as “appropriate” speech and demanding fealty to these standards, such that every perceived wrong step, every comment they don’t like, is turned into something as egregious as the N word.

This obsession with political correctness, which fueled Donald Trump’s election, has now spread and mutated to incorporate him. Part of being a member of politically correct culture has now become an insistence on repudiating the President and his election. Americans are told they should not, they cannot, support this man, under any circumstances. To do so is racist, the cardinal sin of our generation.

In 2018, supporting the President of the United States will get you labeled a racist.

Liberals point to things like the new policy on immigration which separates children from their parents, comparing it to the Nazis. The overreaches and abuses in the realm of immigration are heartbreaking and disheartening. It’s disingenuous, however, for liberals to suddenly be concerned given how much of Trump’s treatment of immigrants is merely an extension of Obama-era policies. Recently several instances of abuses were shared, from kids in cages to prison buses, which were at the time blamed on the Trump administration, but were later exposed to be from before his inauguration.

It’s impossible to take liberals and journalists concerns about the welfare of immigrants at face value after their eight year slumber through the entire Obama administration.

But it’s not only disingenuous. What the President’s opponents don’t seem to understand is the hysteria and excuses are only driving more Americans into believing that we were desperately in need of a corrective.

The refusal to accept that millions of Americans knowingly voted for Trump will only help the President earn another term. For the hysteria from the left over dissent of any kind, but especially pertaining to Trump, is precisely what has resulted in the “owning the liberals” mentality on the right, which is only gaining steam.

As Salena Zito explains in “The Great Revolt”, “Rust Belt voters watched on cable television as the Left and journalists pigeonholed their rebellion as an ugly bout of white nationalism, doubling down on all the elitist snobbery those voters sought to rebuke.”

And it’s starting to get to me, too.

Instead of trying to understand Americans and their choice for President, anyone voicing even a modicum of support for the administration is bullied into apologies and silence. The media turn public statements of support for the President into a news story for their viewers and readers to get outraged over. That’s the least of the media’s campaign against the President, which includes countless mistakes and corrections which only seem to break one way: against the administration. For a group of professionals who express shock and horror at the label “Fake news!” many members of the media are doing nothing but providing more ammunition for Trump’s attacks.

When he does do something well, like finally moving our embassy to Jerusalem or stepping out of an extraordinarily flawed Iran nuclear deal, it’s ignored or villainized. Americans notice the double standard; the refusal to see anything positive, and the fixation on everything negative. There are some accomplishments every American can, or should, admit are positives. The economy is in fantastic shape; Trump has brought home American political prisoners from North Korea and Venezuela; he has pushed through the first steps of important criminal justice reform. Those stories are roundly ignored by a media intent on taking down the President, not reporting on his administration.

It’s enough to make even a NeverTrumper like me into a MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter.

Well, it’s almost enough. Every time he opens his mouth, I am reminded why I couldn’t vote for him. I’m reminded of his words about there being “very fine people” on both sides of Charlottesville. But if the President’s opponents continue to ignore his accomplishments and mindlessly attack him for another few years, it could create even more spiteful Trump voters as a result.
) Criticism is out of control. It's time to suffer through it to show it won't win the day. Also, in the words of past discussion here, these actions are pushing both sides further into their corners.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22998 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:14:51
June 25 2018 02:08 GMT
#6782
On June 25 2018 11:00 KwarK wrote:
Only with Fox News can you have Trump saying something crazy, Fox News taking the quote and using it in statement form as their banner headline to discuss Trump saying the thing, at which point Trump cites Fox News as his source for the insane and obviously untrue thing he said, creating a perfect loop.

It's state propaganda.


At least the Bush administration had the decency to do it anonymously and through a more reputable outlet.

lol@Danglars suggestion that Republicans are considering taking the high ground.

This is how the "middle" rhetoric emboldens them. They genuinely think they have the potential to maintain their policy and the high ground because of the middle cosigning their attempts to delegitimize (or animalize in danglars case) legitimate opposition.


EDIT: omg you actually cited the "The left made me MAGA" lady... This is just too much.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42270 Posts
June 25 2018 02:10 GMT
#6783
On June 25 2018 11:06 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2018 09:18 micronesia wrote:
Be careful what you wish for everyone. A few years in the future when, perhaps, when Democrats control much of the government, and many conservative Americans are unhappy with the state of politics, there may be a sudden push for any establishment operated by a conservative to never serve representatives of the government. The conservative pundits will say "this is exactly how the previous administration was treated," the liberal pundits will say, "that was different, our party isn't being evil!" and people in the middle will sigh and say, "I knew this would happen."

I'm partway with you. People within the conservative movement hated what Obama did, but didn't harass his officials at restaurants to drive them out or surround their houses to make them fearful for leaving them. The Tea Party also did none of these things.

The actions and their widespread defense are absolutely a further step in the wrong direction. The premise seems to be how partisan and crazy-apocalyptic you are about the actions of the current administration. If the nation is one step from the precipice, it justifies resisting in the most anti-civilizational ways you can conjure up. My contention is the new rules from the left is that most anything is justified once you work yourself into a frenzy about the current political opposition. Opposition administration figures can't eat in restaurants. They get spit on in theatres. Their homes are surrounded. A Democratic congresswoman wants to block Trump officials from retailers. That's not a road you want to go down. Trust me.

Meanwhile, it rallies more supporters to Trump. New York Times writeup, Bethany Mandel+ Show Spoiler +
The Left is pushing me to MAGA, and only Trump himself is keeping me from embracing it --author's preferred headline
.

People on the right are deciding on high road or low road right now. The easiest action is just to reflexively announce support on Trump until his opponents exhaust themselves (read the articles, seriously, if you have any questions on this point. + Show Spoiler [NYT] +
LEESBURG, Va. — Gina Anders knows the feeling well by now. President Trump says or does something that triggers a spasm of outrage. She doesn’t necessarily agree with how he handled the situation. She gets why people are upset.

But Ms. Anders, 46, a Republican from suburban Loudoun County, Va., with a law degree, a business career, and not a stitch of “Make America Great Again” gear in her wardrobe, is moved to defend him anyway.

“All nuance and all complexity — and these are complex issues — are completely lost,” she said, describing “overblown” reactions from the president’s critics, some of whom equated the Trump administration’s policy of separating migrant children and parents to history’s greatest atrocities.

“It makes me angry at them, which causes me to want to defend him to them more,” Ms. Anders said.

In interviews across the country over the last few days, dozens of Trump voters, as well as pollsters and strategists, described something like a bonding experience with the president that happens each time Republicans have to answer a now-familiar question: “How can you possibly still support this man?” Their resilience suggests a level of unity among Republicans that could help mitigate Mr. Trump’s low overall approval ratings and aid his party’s chances of keeping control of the House of Representatives in November.

“He’s not a perfect guy; he does some stupid stuff,” said Tony Schrantz, 50, of Lino Lakes, Minn., the owner of a water systems leak detection business. “But when they’re hounding him all the time it just gets old. Give the guy a little.”

Republican voters repeatedly described an instinctive, protective response to the president, and their support has grown in recent months: Mr. Trump’s approval rating among Republicans is now about 90 percent. And while polling has yet to capture the effect of the last week’s immigration controversy, the only modern Republican president more popular with his party than Mr. Trump at this point in his first term, according to Gallup, was George W. Bush after the country united in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

Mr. Trump has also retained support across a range of demographics other than the working-class voters who are most identified with him. This includes portions of the wealthy college-educated people in swing counties, like Virginia’s Loudoun, in the country’s most politically competitive states.

Many of these voters say their lives and the country are improving under his presidency, and the endless stream of tough cable news coverage and bad headlines about Mr. Trump only galvanizes them further — even though some displayed discomfort on their faces when asked about the child separation policy, and expressed misgivings about the president’s character.

“It bothers me that he doesn’t tell the truth, but I guess I kind of expect that, and I expect that from the media, too — not to always tell the truth or to slant it one way,” said Julie Knight, 63, a retired personal injury case manager from Algona, Wash.

The increasingly tribalized politics on the left and right have helped insulate Mr. Trump from the paroxysms that have jolted his party and eroded longstanding expectations of restraint, humility and honesty in American presidents. This era of tumult has left Democrats energized and determined to win back Congress and act as a check on Mr. Trump, and their intensity has been reflected by strong turnouts in the primaries so far. But still, in just the last year and a half, Mr. Trump has bounced back from crises that at the time seemed as if they might be too severe for him to recover politically.

He tried to unilaterally bar visitors from several Muslim countries from the United States, angering U.S. allies and provoking clashes with Congress and the courts over the limits of executive power. He praised some “very fine people” at a deadly white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., in remarks that shook some members of his cabinet so deeply that they considered resigning. He defended Roy S. Moore, a Senate candidate in Alabama who was accused of fondling teenage girls, by suggesting that the allegations were old and possibly made-up.

And so as another immigration crisis of his own making smoldered this past week, critics inside and outside Mr. Trump’s party predicted another devastating, irremediable low point in his presidency. Yet many Trump voters said that they no longer had the patience or interest to listen to what they see as another hysterical outburst by Democrats, Republican “Never Trumpers” and the media.

“It’s kind of like when you experience a sensation over and over and over again,” said Daniel Arnold, 32, a warehouse manager from Leesburg, Va., about an hour outside Washington. “A sensation is no longer a sensation. It’s just, ‘Oh, here we are again.’”

For many Republicans, the audio of children sobbing at a migrant detention center barely registered, because these voters don’t pay attention to the left-leaning and mainstream media that have covered the family separation crisis far more than their preferred channel, Fox News.

“I think it’s terrible about the kids getting split up from their parents. But the parents shouldn’t have been here,” said Lynn Dittbenner, 65, of Elk River, Minn., who took the day off from relaxing with her family at their lake cabin to hear the president speak at a rally in Duluth on Wednesday.

Others said they saw a ploy by the president’s enemies to obscure news that was more favorable to him, like the internal Justice Department investigation that recently uncovered evidence of F.B.I. officials speaking disparagingly of Mr. Trump.

“It’s just incredible what the nation is trying to do to disrupt this president and his agenda,” said Jeff Butts, 58, an unemployed sales manager from Leesburg. “We don’t get to hear about that. We only get to hear about the crying babies on the border.”

Sometimes they seized on made-up or erroneous story lines that were mostly absent from the mainstream media.

“Those cages and those families — that was actually filmed during the Obama administration, not the Trump administration,” said Clayton Smith, 57, a commercial lending underwriter from Cary, Ill., a Chicago suburb.

Mr. Smith was correct about one image. He was referring to a story that was covered widely in the conservative media over the last few weeks about one of President Obama’s former speechwriters who tweeted a picture of immigrant children sleeping in a chain-link pen. “This is happening right now,” the tweet said, despite the fact that the picture was from 2014 when Mr. Obama was president. (He later deleted it and acknowledged the error.)

As isolated as those examples are, they are validating for people who believe their political beliefs are constantly held under a microscope and vilified.

“I don’t have friends anymore because I’ve switched parties,” said Judy Brana, 66, a retired music and art teacher from St. Cloud, Minn., who left home at 10:30 on Wednesday morning to make the two-and-a-half-hour drive up to Duluth for the president’s rally.

“Friends I’ve had for 40 years,” she added. “It’s insane, that’s what I’ll tell you.”

Another factor that seems to be driving up support is a sense that no one is acknowledging Mr. Trump’s successes, which they see as manifold, historic and irrefutable.

“Let’s see,” said John Westling, 70, of Princeton, Minn., reciting a list of the president’s accomplishments that he said no one in the media wants to talk about. “Economy booming, check. Unemployment down, check. Border security being addressed, check. Possible end to the Korean War that started when I was 3 years old, 68 years ago, check.”

“I suspect that if Trump walked across Lake Mille Lacs,” Mr. Westling added, “the media would announce, ‘Trump can’t swim!’”

As measured by the Gallup daily presidential approval tracking poll, Mr. Trump has averaged 87 percent job approval from fellow Republicans in his second year in office, up from 83 percent in his first year. And during the past two weeks, his approval rating hit 90 percent with Republicans.

Yet some say their patience with Mr. Trump’s divisive style is not limitless. Gary Winthorpe, a 17-year-old high school student who was on his way to see the president speak in Minnesota on Wednesday, said he hopes that the first vote he casts for president in 2020 is for Mr. Trump. But he acknowledged being wary at times, aware of protests against the president.

“I’m not blindly for Donald Trump,” he said. “I have a fair bit of skepticism toward him. But I feel like he is trying his best.”

Mr. Trump fared much worse than prior Republican candidates among well-educated and affluent white voters, and became the first Republican to win the presidency while losing white college graduates. But he nonetheless won considerable support among college-educated and affluent voters. He retains much of that support today. According to a Pew Research survey this month, approximately 31 percent of Trump approvers are white men without a college degree, and 66 percent are either college graduates, women or nonwhite.

According to Gallup, Mr. Trump’s popularity with college-educated voters has remained about equal to his popularity with Americans overall this year.

There is some evidence that Mr. Trump’s base of support may have shrunk slightly, though. In recent polls from Gallup and Morning Consult, the numbers of people who identified as Republicans were about 2 percentage points smaller than they were in early 2017.

Among Democrats, Mr. Trump’s initial approval has been historically low, failing to reach 15 percent since he took office. Presidents have traditionally come in with at least a moderate amount of support from the opposing party.

Just as Mr. Trump has changed the makeup of the Republican coalition, he also appears to have helped change the views of the people who support him.

Republicans appear to have developed more forgiving views on morality and public service in recent years, for example. In 2011, one in three Republicans thought an elected official who commits immoral acts in private life could act ethically in public life, according to a Public Religion Research Institute/Brookings survey. By 2016, seven out of 10 did. The trend was especially pronounced among white evangelicals, who strongly supported Mr. Trump and went from being the least likely to the most likely to agree that a candidate’s personal immorality had nothing to do with public service.

The percentage of Republicans who say they have a favorable view of Vladimir Putin, the Russian president for whom Mr. Trump has repeatedly expressed fondness, has doubled from 2015 to 2017 to 24 percent, according to Gallup. Among Democrats, Mr. Putin’s popularity has plummeted.

Even if Mr. Trump wasn’t at the center of the national conversation, Ms. Anders, the Loudoun County business executive, said she thinks that the country would still be polarized. But as long as he is, she said, people on the right and the left will probably continue to dig in based on what Mr. Trump does and how his opponents respond.

“It all coalesces around Trump,” she said. “It’s either, ‘Trump wants to put people in cages, in concentration camps.’ Or, on the other side, ‘Oh the left just wants everybody to come into the country illegally so they can get voters.’”

She concluded: “We can’t have a conversation.”
+ Show Spoiler [The Forward] +
uring the election, the deluge of hate that came my way when I expressed my disapproval of then-candidate Donald Trump was so violent that I purchased a gun.

But these days, the vitriol is coming from the other side. Chance the Rapper, for example, was was eviscerated online for suggesting that “Black people don’t have to be democrats,” and eventually pressured into apologizing. His comment came after Kanye West faced a firestorm of criticism after tweeting in support of Donald Trump. Earlier this year, country singer Shania Twain, a Canadian, also felt the need to apologize for stating that, were she an American citizen with voting rights, would have voted for Trump.

Expressing anything resembling support for the Trump administration has become nothing short of a taboo. And while these backlashes are hardly the same as the tweets I would get threatening my family during the election, they do raise the question, should Americans really be publicly shamed and bullied into apologizing for stating that they support the President of the United States?

There is more than a chance that this could spectacularly backfire.

During the primary season and general election, I was a vocal conservative against Trump. I could not fathom how anyone could possibly support such an oaf, such a bully, for President.

But I’m starting to understand.

*

Before the election, The Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf published a dialogue he had with a 22-year old Trump supporter living and working in Silicon Valley. How could such a man possibly support then-candidate Trump, was the question Friedersdorf put to him. “For me personally, it’s resistance against what San Francisco has been, and what I see the country becoming, in the form of ultra-PC culture,” the Trump supporter told him. “That’s where it’s almost impossible to have polite or constructive political discussion. Disagreement gets you labeled fascist, racist, bigoted, etc.”

This backlash against political correctness is what got Donald Trump elected. Not only do Trump’s voters continue to believe his level of political correctness is correct, but surveys consistently find the highest correlation between being anti-P.C. and supporting Trump, stronger even than feelings about immigration. According to a survey in ClearThinking.org covered in Reason, believing “there is too much political correctness in this country” was the second most reliable predictor for whether someone would vote for Trump (the first was party affiliation).

It’s not just on national issues, either. In a survey conducted for their book on the populist revolt that led to Trump’s election, “The Great Revolt”, Salena Zito found that 85% of Trump voters wanted the United States to make our own decisions on major issues and challenge other nations to follow our example.

We’ve seen how that unwillingness to adhere to traditional political norms has paid off in dividends internationally. Every President has been told that he simply cannot move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, and watching Trump thumb his nose at that convention has been refreshing for many conservatives including myself.

So it’s ironic that the very cause of Trump’s election — the over-policing of discourse to conform to liberal notions of political correctness — has reached a fever pitch in the wake of his election.

By PC culture, I don’t mean things like the very positive fact that we can’t call minorities ugly epithets anymore. I mean liberals defining what counts as “appropriate” speech and demanding fealty to these standards, such that every perceived wrong step, every comment they don’t like, is turned into something as egregious as the N word.

This obsession with political correctness, which fueled Donald Trump’s election, has now spread and mutated to incorporate him. Part of being a member of politically correct culture has now become an insistence on repudiating the President and his election. Americans are told they should not, they cannot, support this man, under any circumstances. To do so is racist, the cardinal sin of our generation.

In 2018, supporting the President of the United States will get you labeled a racist.

Liberals point to things like the new policy on immigration which separates children from their parents, comparing it to the Nazis. The overreaches and abuses in the realm of immigration are heartbreaking and disheartening. It’s disingenuous, however, for liberals to suddenly be concerned given how much of Trump’s treatment of immigrants is merely an extension of Obama-era policies. Recently several instances of abuses were shared, from kids in cages to prison buses, which were at the time blamed on the Trump administration, but were later exposed to be from before his inauguration.

It’s impossible to take liberals and journalists concerns about the welfare of immigrants at face value after their eight year slumber through the entire Obama administration.

But it’s not only disingenuous. What the President’s opponents don’t seem to understand is the hysteria and excuses are only driving more Americans into believing that we were desperately in need of a corrective.

The refusal to accept that millions of Americans knowingly voted for Trump will only help the President earn another term. For the hysteria from the left over dissent of any kind, but especially pertaining to Trump, is precisely what has resulted in the “owning the liberals” mentality on the right, which is only gaining steam.

As Salena Zito explains in “The Great Revolt”, “Rust Belt voters watched on cable television as the Left and journalists pigeonholed their rebellion as an ugly bout of white nationalism, doubling down on all the elitist snobbery those voters sought to rebuke.”

And it’s starting to get to me, too.

Instead of trying to understand Americans and their choice for President, anyone voicing even a modicum of support for the administration is bullied into apologies and silence. The media turn public statements of support for the President into a news story for their viewers and readers to get outraged over. That’s the least of the media’s campaign against the President, which includes countless mistakes and corrections which only seem to break one way: against the administration. For a group of professionals who express shock and horror at the label “Fake news!” many members of the media are doing nothing but providing more ammunition for Trump’s attacks.

When he does do something well, like finally moving our embassy to Jerusalem or stepping out of an extraordinarily flawed Iran nuclear deal, it’s ignored or villainized. Americans notice the double standard; the refusal to see anything positive, and the fixation on everything negative. There are some accomplishments every American can, or should, admit are positives. The economy is in fantastic shape; Trump has brought home American political prisoners from North Korea and Venezuela; he has pushed through the first steps of important criminal justice reform. Those stories are roundly ignored by a media intent on taking down the President, not reporting on his administration.

It’s enough to make even a NeverTrumper like me into a MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter.

Well, it’s almost enough. Every time he opens his mouth, I am reminded why I couldn’t vote for him. I’m reminded of his words about there being “very fine people” on both sides of Charlottesville. But if the President’s opponents continue to ignore his accomplishments and mindlessly attack him for another few years, it could create even more spiteful Trump voters as a result.
) Criticism is out of control. It's time to suffer through it to show it won't win the day. Also, in the words of past discussion here, these actions are pushing both sides further into their corners.

I can't help feeling like the white woman with the law degree writing to the New York Times would not think the situation were so overblown had it been her children that had been placed in cages.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:20:41
June 25 2018 02:15 GMT
#6784
On the one hand, fuck your feelings leftist! Get over it! MAGA!

On the other hand, think of the tender Trumpist snowflakes. Why should they have to defend Trump policies on the merits?

Going full blown cry baby snowflake and demanding civility would be a plausible strategy if the Republican party didn't run and win an election for a guy (Trump) who built an entire ideology (and policy set) around being uncivil and directly attacking people on a personal basis.

EDIT: also, if you think leftists shouting at policy makers here and there is just toooo triggering, wait until you read about what happened during the civil rights movement.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:27:15
June 25 2018 02:21 GMT
#6785
On June 25 2018 09:52 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2018 09:49 KwarK wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:40 micronesia wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:25 micronesia wrote:
You should understand I'm not trying to defend the right on this issue. I just think they won't understand why the situation is different in the future, regardless of how justified the current protesters actually are.


I'm just pointing out those in the "middle" saying "I knew this would happen" are making an argument for the oppressors. If you don't intend to make an argument in favor of the oppressors, then don't.

I kind of see how my position is defending oppressors. On the other hand, I don't default to defending oppressors is bad. For example, I may stop you from burning a group of oppressors to death (defend oppressors), then have them all thrown in prison for life shortly after (a better alternative to gruesomely burning them to death in a civilized world). The current discussion is less extreme, but my concern is that this is the wrong way to protest. Don't protest in a way that will ultimately hurt both sides of the issue equally. It's noble but not very effective.

On June 25 2018 09:35 KwarK wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:18 micronesia wrote:
Be careful what you wish for everyone. A few years in the future when, perhaps, when Democrats control much of the government, and many conservative Americans are unhappy with the state of politics, there may be a sudden push for any establishment operated by a conservative to never serve representatives of the government. The conservative pundits will say "this is exactly how the previous administration was treated," the liberal pundits will say, "that was different, our party isn't being evil!" and people in the middle will sigh and say, "I knew this would happen."

Oh no, the conservative assholes might not let us give them our money...

Segregation was bad when it was about race. I think it will be bad if it's about which of the two major parties you belong to as well, even if it's not necessarily formally enforced by the government*.

* there is already some, but more wouldn't be better.

Treating people differently based on their actions is not the same thing as segregation. If racists want racial segregation and I don't want to hang out with racists we're not both supporters of segregation.
Note that I'm not talking about segregation according to our actions, I'm talking about segregation by political alignment, because ultimately that's what would happen. It would devolve into right vs left or some similar dichotomy, and the original 'actions' would get lost entirely by at least half of the population..


Why are you talking about this hypothetically? We are already there. I'd have to think about exactly when the American left crossed the Rubicon of political segregation, but they very clearly crossed it at some point over the past few years (Twitter's discrimination against the Right/conservatives being perhaps the first high profile action, along with the protests against conservative speakers at universities). Sarah Huckabee Sanders getting kicked out of a restaurant is just latest example. And you need look no further than how the usual suspect leftist posters in this thread have responded to the incident to fully understand the depth of the problem. Of course, no one should be surprised. This is what happens when you reflexively label the political opposition "racists, sexists, bigots, and homophobes" for over a decade. At some point, the dehumanization sets in, allowing for this level of indecency to become acceptable.

Yes, "indecency" is the right word. This isn't about "rights" or what's "constitutional." This is about basic decency and tolerance. Whether we are going to be a civilized society that tolerates political dissent and remains cohesive, or whether we are going to continue to degenerate into ... whatever the fuck the Left is leading our country into.

I'm not entirely sure that this genie is going back into the bottle any time soon. While it has been mostly been Trump people or others on the far right to have born the brunt of the Left's political discrimination, I promise you that the mainstream conservatives and right have taken notice. The game has changed, and they are starting to act accordingly.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22998 Posts
June 25 2018 02:25 GMT
#6786
On June 25 2018 11:21 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2018 09:52 micronesia wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:49 KwarK wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:40 micronesia wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:25 micronesia wrote:
You should understand I'm not trying to defend the right on this issue. I just think they won't understand why the situation is different in the future, regardless of how justified the current protesters actually are.


I'm just pointing out those in the "middle" saying "I knew this would happen" are making an argument for the oppressors. If you don't intend to make an argument in favor of the oppressors, then don't.

I kind of see how my position is defending oppressors. On the other hand, I don't default to defending oppressors is bad. For example, I may stop you from burning a group of oppressors to death (defend oppressors), then have them all thrown in prison for life shortly after (a better alternative to gruesomely burning them to death in a civilized world). The current discussion is less extreme, but my concern is that this is the wrong way to protest. Don't protest in a way that will ultimately hurt both sides of the issue equally. It's noble but not very effective.

On June 25 2018 09:35 KwarK wrote:
On June 25 2018 09:18 micronesia wrote:
Be careful what you wish for everyone. A few years in the future when, perhaps, when Democrats control much of the government, and many conservative Americans are unhappy with the state of politics, there may be a sudden push for any establishment operated by a conservative to never serve representatives of the government. The conservative pundits will say "this is exactly how the previous administration was treated," the liberal pundits will say, "that was different, our party isn't being evil!" and people in the middle will sigh and say, "I knew this would happen."

Oh no, the conservative assholes might not let us give them our money...

Segregation was bad when it was about race. I think it will be bad if it's about which of the two major parties you belong to as well, even if it's not necessarily formally enforced by the government*.

* there is already some, but more wouldn't be better.

Treating people differently based on their actions is not the same thing as segregation. If racists want racial segregation and I don't want to hang out with racists we're not both supporters of segregation.
Note that I'm not talking about segregation according to our actions, I'm talking about segregation by political alignment, because ultimately that's what would happen. It would devolve into right vs left or some similar dichotomy, and the original 'actions' would get lost entirely by at least half of the population..


Why are you talking about this hypothetically? We are already there. I'd have to think about exactly when the American left crossed the Rubicon of political segregation, but they very clearly crossed it at some point over the past few years (Twitter's discrimination against the Right/conservatives being perhaps the first high profile action). Sarah Huckabee Sanders getting kicked out of a restaurant is just latest example. And you need look no further than how the usual suspect leftist posters in this thread have responded to the incident to fully understand the depth of the problem. Of course, no one should be surprised. This is what happens when you reflexively label the political opposition "racists, sexists, bigots, and homophobes" for over a decade. At some point, the dehumanization sets in, allowing for this level of indecency to become acceptable.

Yes, "indecency" is the right word. This isn't about "rights" or what's "constitutional." This is about basic decency and tolerance. Whether we are going to be a civilized society that tolerates political dissent and remains cohesive, or whether we are going to continue to degenerate into ... whatever the fuck the Left is leading our country into.

I'm entirely sure that this genie is going back into the bottle any time soon. While it has been mostly been Trump people or others on the far right to have born the brunt of the Left's political discrimination, I promise you that the mainstream conservatives and right have taken notice. The game has changed, and they are starting to act accordingly.


You know conservatives have literally always been doing this to people in this country? The entire history of conservatives is the discrimination you seem to find reprehensible now. How do you reconcile that?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42270 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:45:31
June 25 2018 02:26 GMT
#6787
On June 25 2018 11:21 xDaunt wrote:
Yes, "indecency" is the right word. This isn't about "rights" or what's "constitutional." This is about basic decency and tolerance. Whether we are going to be a civilized society that tolerates political dissent and remains cohesive, or whether we are going to continue to degenerate into ... whatever the fuck the Left is leading our country into.

The guy you voted for was leading a mob in a chant of "lock her up" regarding his political opponent, you don't get to insist that the other side doesn't value political dissent because a restaurant wouldn't serve a horrible person dinner. The current President proposed that if he lost the election one of his supporters could prevent his opponent appointing Supreme Court Justices by shooting the President. This is red Starbucks cups all over again. You're all so privileged that you feel you can do and say whatever the fuck you like but the moment anyone calls you out on it you scream oppression.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
June 25 2018 02:28 GMT
#6788
I'm not sure how anyone here thinks the attitudes expressed in the last pages are somehow making the current political situation better.

What ever happened to "When they go low, we go high"?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42270 Posts
June 25 2018 02:30 GMT
#6789
On June 25 2018 11:28 mozoku wrote:
I'm not sure how anyone here thinks the attitudes expressed in the last pages are somehow making the current political situation better.

What ever happened to "When they go low, we go high"?

2016 happened.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22998 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:33:14
June 25 2018 02:32 GMT
#6790
On June 25 2018 11:28 mozoku wrote:
I'm not sure how anyone here thinks the attitudes expressed in the last pages are somehow making the current political situation better.


I agree. There is nothing about supporting, defending, or justifying Trump or his supporters actions that helps the situation.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
June 25 2018 02:36 GMT
#6791
On June 25 2018 11:30 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2018 11:28 mozoku wrote:
I'm not sure how anyone here thinks the attitudes expressed in the last pages are somehow making the current political situation better.

What ever happened to "When they go low, we go high"?

2016 happened.

And what, specifically, in 2016 necessitated the shift from "When they go low, we go high" to "Fuck them"?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42270 Posts
June 25 2018 02:40 GMT
#6792
On June 25 2018 11:36 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2018 11:30 KwarK wrote:
On June 25 2018 11:28 mozoku wrote:
I'm not sure how anyone here thinks the attitudes expressed in the last pages are somehow making the current political situation better.

What ever happened to "When they go low, we go high"?

2016 happened.

And what, specifically, in 2016 necessitated the shift from "When they go low, we go high" to "Fuck them"?

The extent of which the current regime, and to a large degree its supporters and apologists, are morally irredeemable requires all people of good character to resist it. To use a very simplistic comparison, you do not owe a Nazi a civilized debate about the merits of Nazism.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:47:24
June 25 2018 02:41 GMT
#6793
People are good at compartmentalizing things in their head. Its how you get Trump supporters in Montana supporting and voting for a Black man who was a refugee as their mayor even has they still love Trump or Democrats who ignore the non progressive things administrations at various levels of government do.

Conservatives in this thread also seem to be forgetting times when their ilk had armed standoffs with government agents to avoid paying taxes or taking control and occupying federal facilities when Obama was president.
Never Knows Best.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 02:47:19
June 25 2018 02:46 GMT
#6794
On June 25 2018 11:15 Wulfey_LA wrote:
On the one hand, fuck your feelings leftist! Get over it! MAGA!

On the other hand, think of the tender Trumpist snowflakes. Why should they have to defend Trump policies on the merits?

Going full blown cry baby snowflake and demanding civility would be a plausible strategy if the Republican party didn't run and win an election for a guy (Trump) who built an entire ideology (and policy set) around being uncivil and directly attacking people on a personal basis.



Yeah once the Republicans elected Trump, all bets were off. You don't walk into a meeting room and drop a rotting corpse on the table and then cry because people won't stop complaining about the corpse.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 03:04:52
June 25 2018 02:53 GMT
#6795
On June 25 2018 11:36 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2018 11:30 KwarK wrote:
On June 25 2018 11:28 mozoku wrote:
I'm not sure how anyone here thinks the attitudes expressed in the last pages are somehow making the current political situation better.

What ever happened to "When they go low, we go high"?

2016 happened.

And what, specifically, in 2016 necessitated the shift from "When they go low, we go high" to "Fuck them"?

I don’t know, the GOP keeps controlling congress. Maybe going high is a terrible plan?

They sold shirts that said “Fuck your feelings” at Trump campaign rallies. You don’t get to advocate for civility while that guy is in office. No one is oppressing conservatives, they are just getting a taste of their own medicine.



This is what this administration is doing to this country. We got kids in camps, job killing tariffs being put in place and Congress with its thumb out its ass. People are pissed and going to remain that way for the foreseeable future.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12057 Posts
June 25 2018 02:59 GMT
#6796
Also it's not an honest argument. Everyone understands that if ideas are treated with civility, they're in the realm of acceptable ideas; so it actively helps conservatism to encourage people to treat extreme conservative ideas with civility.

Look for some sort of reverse where you would see someone softpedal on any leftist idea because of concern that it will make people more leftist or whatever, and you'll find none. That's not a coincidence.
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
June 25 2018 03:02 GMT
#6797
The bar for comparisons with Nazis and the label "morally irredeemable" has really dropped in the past 10 (or is it just 2?) years it seems. Gay marriage was favored by a minority of the current "Resistance" party as recently as 2009. Were they deserving of Nazis comparisons then? I don't recall Obama calling his voters Nazis. Are racist incidents towards African-Americans noticeably higher today? It would be the first I've heard of it.

Has American behavior actually changed significantly, or has American political rhetoric changed significantly? Sure, there have been examples of proposed and actual racist/xenophobic policies under Trump, but is it any more common or greater on severity than it was under, say, Nixon or Reagan? Did their opponents compare them to "morally irredeemable Nazis"? Has not significant social/human progress occurred since then without (until recently) radicalizing American political discourse?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 25 2018 03:06 GMT
#6798
We never built a camp to display immigrant’s children behind barbed wire at the border.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
June 25 2018 03:09 GMT
#6799
You're both missing the point. I'm questioning the long-term wisdom of justifying childish behavior by pointing at the other side's childish behavior. Especially when the previous model had a pretty good track record.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42270 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-25 03:17:52
June 25 2018 03:16 GMT
#6800
On June 25 2018 12:02 mozoku wrote:
The bar for comparisons with Nazis and the label "morally irredeemable" has really dropped in the past 10 (or is it just 2?) years it seems. Gay marriage was favored by a minority of the current "Resistance" party as recently as 2009. Were they deserving of Nazis comparisons then? I don't recall Obama calling his voters Nazis. Are racist incidents towards African-Americans noticeably higher today? It would be the first I've heard of it.

Has American behavior actually changed significantly, or has American political rhetoric changed significantly? Sure, there have been examples of proposed and actual racist/xenophobic policies under Trump, but is it any more common or greater on severity than it was under, say, Nixon or Reagan? Did their opponents compare them to "morally irredeemable Nazis"? Has not significant social/human progress occurred since then without (until recently) radicalizing American political discourse?

The current President retweeted racist Nazi propaganda authored by this Nazi.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


When pressed he can't bring himself to condemn Nazis if they're also Trump supporters, insisting that some are very fine people and that both sides are to blame for the neo-Nazi terrorist attack.

He calls immigrants animals, he shits on the justice system, he's constantly whining about the lying press, he calls for political violence against his opponents. I could go on.

At a certain point conservatives will need to come to terms with the Nazi president thing and move to justifications about why he was the lesser of two evils and how they never fully supported him anyway. There's only so many times that a man can promote Nazi propaganda before you start to think he might be a Nazi (for me that number is 1).

I don't think things were as bad in terms of Nazism in the past. Obviously a lot of presidents were massive racists, but most of them since WWII were old enough to remember that you should try not to emulate Hitler.
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