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On June 25 2018 22:03 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. Because you completely missed my point. My point is that if people disagree about minor and insignificant things, how can they possibly agree on important things?
The built-in assumption here is that it's a good thing to find agreement on important things with republicans. But that's not necessarily true, that depends where the compromise leads us.
Historically in the US that's mostly been to the right of where I would find it acceptable, because leftism was viewed as communism and as the enemy; I get that. But then Reagan comes in, and the compromise position moves to the right. Then the Tea Party comes in, and the compromise position moves to the right. Then Trump comes in, and the compromise position moves to the right. At every step in this you get a very different result for your compromise, and at every step you get fewer democrats who are willing to do it. That's logical.
At some point it's going to be time for the Democrats to make some stands and see if some republicans are willing to compromise with them (perhaps that time was 40 years ago but ymmv). Because if you see a party drifting further and further away from center and your reaction is to expect the other party to keep following them so that they can meet them in the so-called middle, then what you're looking for isn't called agreement, it's called a surrender.
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On June 25 2018 22:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:01 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force. It was pretty clear to me that y’all weren’t up to having an adult conversation on that one. So yeah, no thanks. TBF the criticism of the restaurant that threw Sanders out and the people who supported it was hardly 'adult' in nature, focusing as it did on a completely different case with completely different talking points.
I certainly agree, but with this Sanders stuff, I can make my point quickly and then watch countless liberal posters mercilessly prove it. On the other hand, whenever the children are involved, it becomes very hard to have a redeemable conversation.
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On June 25 2018 22:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force. It was pretty clear to me that y’all weren’t up to having an adult conversation on that one. So yeah, no thanks.
So that wasn’t an adult discussion, but Red Hen was? Not buying it.
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On June 25 2018 22:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:01 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force. It was pretty clear to me that y’all weren’t up to having an adult conversation on that one. So yeah, no thanks. So that wasn’t an adult discussion, but Red Hen was? Not buying it.
Of course Red Hen wasn’t. Almost a dozen liberal posters expressed hatred or contempt for conservatives/Republicans, even casually throwing in Nazi references and comparisons. It was an utter disgrace, not that I expect to see any remorse.
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On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution
Looking for reasoned debate and discussion in how we got into this situation in the first place. It only works if both sides wish to do it. One side doubled down and gave us Trump.
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On June 25 2018 22:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:18 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 22:01 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2018 21:35 farvacola wrote:
The US is indeed subject to a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with that tangled mess of a false equivalence in comparison. Folks who are anti-Trump have offered a voluminous number of substantive objections to how he runs (or doesn't) the White House, in this very thread no less, so I dunno why you'd focus on some random ice cream thing as though that's the face of anti-Trump criticism. Because picking actual meaningful criticisms means he had to defend what Trump does and no one wants to do that. You hit the nail on the head. Conservative posters flocked to the thread to decry the Sanders being denied service. Not the 2000 kids being taken away from their families through threat of force. It was pretty clear to me that y’all weren’t up to having an adult conversation on that one. So yeah, no thanks. So that wasn’t an adult discussion, but Red Hen was? Not buying it. Of course Red Hen wasn’t. Almost a dozen liberal posters expressed hatred or contempt for conservatives/Republicans, even casually throwing in Nazi references and comparisons. It was an utter disgrace, not that I expect to see any remorse.
We have vastly different opinions on what is a disgrace, it seems.
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On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution
Laying blame where blame is warranted is fine.
Unless you're saying criminals should not be held accountable for their actions?
Do you have any substance to backup your points?
or just more false equivalencies wherein you ignore the reality of what happened?
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On June 25 2018 22:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:32 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution Looking for reasoned debate and discussion in how we got into this situation in the first place. It only works if both sides wish to do it. One side doubled down and gave us Trump. From the outside to me it looked more like they didn't think it would really happen and then were not that excited when it did. But then are now backing him because he is "one of them". The whole thing is people have to communicate to understand other peoples perspective, this involves listening and not just waiting to respond. There is a large group of Americans who feel so strongly about anti abortion legislation that would it be good if they stopped serving or talking to anyone who voted for planned parenthood? ( I myself am pro choice just bringing up a hot button issue for some). It would not be good to get to a point where Dems and Reps can't eat in the same restaurants or shop at the same stores. I get this is the slipper slope argument, but there is so much tit for tat going on and each side is cheering for people who do the wrong shit as long as they think it is against the right person.
This isn’t about Republicans or Democrats. The restaurant served Republicans that day and has served them since. This is about the Press Sectary for an abusive administration that functions on grievance and pitting Americans against each other. She was singled out for her actions, not for being a Republican.
Straight up, if Ted Cruz had shown up, they likely would have served him. This is about Trump and the people who lie for him every day.
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On June 25 2018 23:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:55 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution Laying blame where blame is warranted is fine. Unless you're saying criminals should not be held accountable for their actions? Do you have any substance to backup your points? or just more false equivalencies wherein you ignore the reality of what happened? The post you responded too was not about that though, you hijacked it to blame one side when it was about both sides causing problems. I can not tell if you have no reading comprehension or are just so blinded by anger and self righteousness to actually read. As for your other questions. I think our criminal justice system needs to be completely changed. It should be about rehabilitation not punishment. How it works now is bad, it is not working. I don't have all the answers but I would look to some of the European nations who's crime rates are falling for answers.
you're ignoring the reality that one side VERY MUCH is the source of the problems.
sometimes one side started the tit for tat war; you're ignoring that.
all you have is unjustified insults that come from you not looking at the actual situation.
it's not a hijack to point out that the problems were started by one side, or that one side is in fact doing far more to aggravate them.
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On June 25 2018 23:06 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 23:04 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 23:01 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 22:55 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution Laying blame where blame is warranted is fine. Unless you're saying criminals should not be held accountable for their actions? Do you have any substance to backup your points? or just more false equivalencies wherein you ignore the reality of what happened? The post you responded too was not about that though, you hijacked it to blame one side when it was about both sides causing problems. I can not tell if you have no reading comprehension or are just so blinded by anger and self righteousness to actually read. As for your other questions. I think our criminal justice system needs to be completely changed. It should be about rehabilitation not punishment. How it works now is bad, it is not working. I don't have all the answers but I would look to some of the European nations who's crime rates are falling for answers. you're ignoring the reality that one side VERY MUCH is the source of the problems. sometimes one side started the tit for tat war; you're ignoring that. all you have is unjustified insults that come from you not looking at the actual situation. No I fully understand that YOU believe that one side is very much the problem. What you seem to not understand is that this is not a math equation, people have different opinions on the matter. And in a free country they are allowed to have those opinions.
Yeah but, he's correct though.
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On June 25 2018 23:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:59 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 22:50 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 22:32 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution Looking for reasoned debate and discussion in how we got into this situation in the first place. It only works if both sides wish to do it. One side doubled down and gave us Trump. From the outside to me it looked more like they didn't think it would really happen and then were not that excited when it did. But then are now backing him because he is "one of them". The whole thing is people have to communicate to understand other peoples perspective, this involves listening and not just waiting to respond. There is a large group of Americans who feel so strongly about anti abortion legislation that would it be good if they stopped serving or talking to anyone who voted for planned parenthood? ( I myself am pro choice just bringing up a hot button issue for some). It would not be good to get to a point where Dems and Reps can't eat in the same restaurants or shop at the same stores. I get this is the slipper slope argument, but there is so much tit for tat going on and each side is cheering for people who do the wrong shit as long as they think it is against the right person. This isn’t about Republicans or Democrats. The restaurant served Republicans that day and has served them since. This is about the Press Sectary for an abusive administration that functions on grievance and pitting Americans against each other. She was singled out for her actions, not for being a Republican. Straight up, if Ted Cruz had shown up, they likely would have served him. This is about Trump and the people who lie for him every day. I understand that. But I'm extrapolating to the future. You know a Rep who owns something is going to look for someone to not serve and so on and so forth. I mean just look at the anger on both sides this relatively innocuous act created. My actual opinion on the matter (which I have not stated but got assumed and then argued, which is quite funny). Is that the actual act was not a huge deal, but that the story and how big it has become and the rage it induces on both sides is a big problem.
The only reason the Red Hen situation has blown up as much as it has is because of Cakegate with people trying to frame them as equivalent.
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On June 25 2018 23:06 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 23:04 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 23:01 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 22:55 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution Laying blame where blame is warranted is fine. Unless you're saying criminals should not be held accountable for their actions? Do you have any substance to backup your points? or just more false equivalencies wherein you ignore the reality of what happened? The post you responded too was not about that though, you hijacked it to blame one side when it was about both sides causing problems. I can not tell if you have no reading comprehension or are just so blinded by anger and self righteousness to actually read. As for your other questions. I think our criminal justice system needs to be completely changed. It should be about rehabilitation not punishment. How it works now is bad, it is not working. I don't have all the answers but I would look to some of the European nations who's crime rates are falling for answers. you're ignoring the reality that one side VERY MUCH is the source of the problems. sometimes one side started the tit for tat war; you're ignoring that. all you have is unjustified insults that come from you not looking at the actual situation. No I fully understand that YOU believe that one side is very much the problem. What you seem to not understand is that this is not a math equation, people have different opinions on the matter. And in a free country they are allowed to have those opinions. And you are overreacting to me because you believe I don't share your political beliefs. Edit: I mean you did also PM me yesterday to insult me. Seriously, go back to my earlier posts that raged you all up. And read them as if I am a democrat, see how angry you get.
it's not just me that believes it; there's ample documentation to show that it's a reasonable belief. and there's been massive amount of argumentation to demonstrate that it is in fact true; you're ignoring all that and pretending that all opinions are equally valid no matter the evidence for them.
I'm overreacting because I'm a very overreactive person; I do it to everyone no matter what their beliefs are. I oppose people being willfully wrong; I support the truth.
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On June 25 2018 23:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2018 22:59 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2018 22:50 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 22:32 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote:On June 25 2018 21:34 zlefin wrote:On June 25 2018 21:24 gobbledydook wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs in the US that everything gets the 'Three minutes of hate' treatment, on both sides of the aisle. Mrs Sanders gets denied service at a restaurant - outrage, never mind that they have the right to serve or not serve anyone they like. Trump has two ice cream scoops while everyone else at the table has one - outrage, never mind that it's not your business what Trump eats. Everyone hates each other, and there is no dialogue.
If people can get riled up over such irrelevant issues, there is no chance for compromise on any of the important issues that the country faces.
Sad! it is unfortunate indeed; and a sad state of affairs. but such is the path the republicans choose. It is sad that in one breath you acknowledge this and in another lay blame. You sir are part of the problem, not the solution Looking for reasoned debate and discussion in how we got into this situation in the first place. It only works if both sides wish to do it. One side doubled down and gave us Trump. From the outside to me it looked more like they didn't think it would really happen and then were not that excited when it did. But then are now backing him because he is "one of them". The whole thing is people have to communicate to understand other peoples perspective, this involves listening and not just waiting to respond. There is a large group of Americans who feel so strongly about anti abortion legislation that would it be good if they stopped serving or talking to anyone who voted for planned parenthood? ( I myself am pro choice just bringing up a hot button issue for some). It would not be good to get to a point where Dems and Reps can't eat in the same restaurants or shop at the same stores. I get this is the slipper slope argument, but there is so much tit for tat going on and each side is cheering for people who do the wrong shit as long as they think it is against the right person. This isn’t about Republicans or Democrats. The restaurant served Republicans that day and has served them since. This is about the Press Sectary for an abusive administration that functions on grievance and pitting Americans against each other. She was singled out for her actions, not for being a Republican. Straight up, if Ted Cruz had shown up, they likely would have served him. This is about Trump and the people who lie for him every day. I understand that. But I'm extrapolating to the future. You know a Rep who owns something is going to look for someone to not serve and so on and so forth. I mean just look at the anger on both sides this relatively innocuous act created. My actual opinion on the matter (which I have not stated but got assumed and then argued, which is quite funny). Is that the actual act was not a huge deal, but that the story and how big it has become and the rage it induces on both sides is a big problem.
The future is that valuing civility isn’t going to come back until Trump is out of office. If folks valued it right now, he wouldn’t be president. People dislike him don’t want to “turn the other cheek” or “go high” because they feel like they are being taken advantage of. Trump fires people up, starts fight, lights fires and they are expected to be the adult in the room. Civility might start to be valued and modeled if Congress starts punishing Trump enflaming tensions.
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EPT
