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On March 14 2021 06:49 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 06:24 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 05:14 JimmiC wrote:On March 14 2021 04:42 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 04:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. Yes lots and I think history will look pretty positively on Franken, there was a lot more hype then substance on that one. No way remotely should it be mentioned with Roy Moore, so totally different levels. On March 14 2021 04:18 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. It's politics for both sides, if they force him out for this they can ignore his failure on COVID, which most of the media dutifully ignored until Trump was out. if they focused on that, though, it would bring unwanted attention to other govs like Whitmer, Wolf, and Newsom. Coumo saw that Northam and the Lt. Gov were VA was able to ride out their own scandals and is going to try, but there's no danger of a Republican replacing them like there was in VA so we'll see. (Both VA senators called on Northam to leave, and Kaine said that Fairfax should too). The Coumo allegations are also much better founded than the Moore ones were (not saying the Moore ones were less likely true than false), we even have that creepy picture, more witnesses, and the conduct is alleged much more recently. I don't blame the women for waiting for the COVID stories though, even though Coumo has lots of enemies in NY he's still a powerful figure who was being lauded by his party mere months ago. Now is the best time to actually make a difference. You also seem to be missing that Moores included children and had ample proof. Also another big difference is there is no talk of criminality with Coumo. It should be extremely embarrassing for your party of choice that they defended him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_misconduct_allegations#:~:text=In November 2017, multiple women,chief justice, and district attorney. You have got to let go of this idea that the parties act on these things out of principle. Justin Fairfax is still Lt. Gov of Virginia. Franken got caught at the height of MeToo when the Dems were going hard on Trump, and now they are talking about Coumo, because his COVID screws-up are finally getting more coverage. Meanwhile if you read your own wikipedia article you'd see that lots of Republican politicians pulled their support from Moore, though again, there were fewer witnesses to any particular conduct so many years ago, so they refused to endorse Jones. And as I alluded to above, people have their own agendas that they will use. Many people in NY don't like Coumo, just as many Senators dreaded the idea of having Moore as a colleague anyways. Coumo should be removed for his COVID nursing home deathtoll, but if this is the way it happens then whatever. edit: again, think about how the balance of power changes for all these things. In AL, it was either Moore or Jones, R or D, when the seat was currently held by a Republican. In MN, Franken would be, and was, replaced with a Democrat by a Democrat gov. In VA, all momentum to replace Northam died the moment the allegation against Fairfax came out, as the AG had an issue like Northam's (IIRC) so therefore the next in line for the gov mansion was a Republican. In NY, Coumo would be replaced by another Democrat. This is quite easy to see. Even with fairfax tons of dems spoke out against him, I get that they didn't follow through with the impeachment, but again there is way less proof then with Moore, its not involving children. If you want to counter my point. Show me a republican anywhere, that the party has admonished for sexual harassment or assault. You seem to be arguing that it is the same because the Dems have not done it every time, that is not great, the Reps have done it never. So again not great is a lot better than never. The Dems are not some amazing political party of great people who I support and do everything I want, not even close. It is just that they are so much better than the Republicans in some very basic and important ways. In 2009, Larry Craig was forced out for allegedly soliciting sex in airport bathrooms, and in 2018 the Republican gov of MO was forced to resign, in large part, for blackmailing a woman with whom he was having an affair. Those are two just off the top of my head. The part that makes the VA example so illuminating is because the Democrats were gung-ho to force them both out until the AG was found to have the same problem Northam did, thus putting the Democrat control of VA at risk. It was so plainly obvious what was happening, and yet... I don't give these examples to go back and forth, because I maintain my position that this is posturing. If Franken's seat was going to be filled by a Republican, he'd still be in the Senate. What's actually happened is that you haven't even bothered to look for any evidence for or against what you are claiming, which in itself is remarkable because common political cynicism would lead you to the opportunistic answer anyways. If all the evidence was out Franken would probably be in the senate still as well. This is why brining him as a example compared to the ones you are using is off putting. The Larry Craig thing is because many reps do not like gays not the same thing. And he was arrested trying to hide it, breaking his own laws. When I Google which MO person resigns Eric greitens shows up and there are stories about his campaign related offenses he was charged with, and not against dems. Lots of the comments from people seem to be about the affair as the bad part of this, which should not be the issue. And the sexual assault stuff is again WAY worse than what Coumo was accused of, this guy was actually indicted! (From my quick read screwed by his wife and a fbi agent). These are so far from Apples to apples comparisons. I'm not saying the reps won't remove people if they get arrested, or are gay (why do you think that guy was willing to get arrested he knew he's sexuality would end his career). I mean they stood by Moore when it was bad for them to do politically, any other rep wins that. As shown by tubberville crushing despite incumbents advantage. It is evidence exactly contrary to the point you are trying to make.
There is so much wildly off base here, but let's just say a few things.
Craig was forced to resign by his own party and colleagues.
For Greitens, from a NYT article
For months, the governor had defiantly refused to resign, even as a Republican-dominated legislative committee investigated him, read aloud for the record a lurid and lengthy account of his behavior and warned that impeachment was possible.
He resigned over that scandal, primarily.
Secondly, remember, the only reason Coumo is now the hot seat is because his COVID coverup is coming to light. The Dems are not and were not going to get rid of him over "inappropriate" behavior, not by itself.
Thirdly, I pointed out to you that almost every Republican, with the admittedly notable exception of the president, abandoned Moore, while you continue to say they stuck by him.
I mean they stood by Moore when it was bad for them to do politically, any other rep wins that. As shown by tubberville crushing despite incumbents advantage. It is evidence exactly contrary to the point you are trying to make.
The bolded shows you don't even really remember what happened. The allegations against Moore were not made until two months after Moore won the primary, and a month before the general. By then it was too late. The choice was Jones (D) or Moore (R).
In that light, perhaps Tuberville trouncing Jones actually proves my point! Many Republican voters in AL rejected Moore, electing an R the next time around only shows how Moore was the one they could not bring themselves to vote for. By your logic that ought to be evidence in the Republicans favor. (btw I remember some people actually thinking Jones had a chance in 2020, have to wonder what reality they were living in).
The hardest decision people had to make in any of these recent examples is actually the one of AL with a close senate on the line. It took far more political courage, if you will, to abandon Moore than it did/does to leave Franken or Coumo, or Greitens, all of whom have or would have replacements that don't fundamentally alter the power balance. Gillibrand calling to oust Franken cost her nothing, although some allege it cost her in the presidential primary. But let's be real, she wasn't going anywhere anyways.
And finally your continued resistance to acknowledge the problem presented by what happened in VA is evidence of your intransigence on this issue. That is the most clear cut example of principle vs. politics and it came out decidedly one way.
I don't understand the resistance to acknowledging the clear lessons from all these examples.
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On March 14 2021 07:41 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 07:27 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 06:49 JimmiC wrote:On March 14 2021 06:24 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 05:14 JimmiC wrote:On March 14 2021 04:42 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 04:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. Yes lots and I think history will look pretty positively on Franken, there was a lot more hype then substance on that one. No way remotely should it be mentioned with Roy Moore, so totally different levels. On March 14 2021 04:18 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. It's politics for both sides, if they force him out for this they can ignore his failure on COVID, which most of the media dutifully ignored until Trump was out. if they focused on that, though, it would bring unwanted attention to other govs like Whitmer, Wolf, and Newsom. Coumo saw that Northam and the Lt. Gov were VA was able to ride out their own scandals and is going to try, but there's no danger of a Republican replacing them like there was in VA so we'll see. (Both VA senators called on Northam to leave, and Kaine said that Fairfax should too). The Coumo allegations are also much better founded than the Moore ones were (not saying the Moore ones were less likely true than false), we even have that creepy picture, more witnesses, and the conduct is alleged much more recently. I don't blame the women for waiting for the COVID stories though, even though Coumo has lots of enemies in NY he's still a powerful figure who was being lauded by his party mere months ago. Now is the best time to actually make a difference. You also seem to be missing that Moores included children and had ample proof. Also another big difference is there is no talk of criminality with Coumo. It should be extremely embarrassing for your party of choice that they defended him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_misconduct_allegations#:~:text=In November 2017, multiple women,chief justice, and district attorney. You have got to let go of this idea that the parties act on these things out of principle. Justin Fairfax is still Lt. Gov of Virginia. Franken got caught at the height of MeToo when the Dems were going hard on Trump, and now they are talking about Coumo, because his COVID screws-up are finally getting more coverage. Meanwhile if you read your own wikipedia article you'd see that lots of Republican politicians pulled their support from Moore, though again, there were fewer witnesses to any particular conduct so many years ago, so they refused to endorse Jones. And as I alluded to above, people have their own agendas that they will use. Many people in NY don't like Coumo, just as many Senators dreaded the idea of having Moore as a colleague anyways. Coumo should be removed for his COVID nursing home deathtoll, but if this is the way it happens then whatever. edit: again, think about how the balance of power changes for all these things. In AL, it was either Moore or Jones, R or D, when the seat was currently held by a Republican. In MN, Franken would be, and was, replaced with a Democrat by a Democrat gov. In VA, all momentum to replace Northam died the moment the allegation against Fairfax came out, as the AG had an issue like Northam's (IIRC) so therefore the next in line for the gov mansion was a Republican. In NY, Coumo would be replaced by another Democrat. This is quite easy to see. Even with fairfax tons of dems spoke out against him, I get that they didn't follow through with the impeachment, but again there is way less proof then with Moore, its not involving children. If you want to counter my point. Show me a republican anywhere, that the party has admonished for sexual harassment or assault. You seem to be arguing that it is the same because the Dems have not done it every time, that is not great, the Reps have done it never. So again not great is a lot better than never. The Dems are not some amazing political party of great people who I support and do everything I want, not even close. It is just that they are so much better than the Republicans in some very basic and important ways. In 2009, Larry Craig was forced out for allegedly soliciting sex in airport bathrooms, and in 2018 the Republican gov of MO was forced to resign, in large part, for blackmailing a woman with whom he was having an affair. Those are two just off the top of my head. The part that makes the VA example so illuminating is because the Democrats were gung-ho to force them both out until the AG was found to have the same problem Northam did, thus putting the Democrat control of VA at risk. It was so plainly obvious what was happening, and yet... I don't give these examples to go back and forth, because I maintain my position that this is posturing. If Franken's seat was going to be filled by a Republican, he'd still be in the Senate. What's actually happened is that you haven't even bothered to look for any evidence for or against what you are claiming, which in itself is remarkable because common political cynicism would lead you to the opportunistic answer anyways. If all the evidence was out Franken would probably be in the senate still as well. This is why brining him as a example compared to the ones you are using is off putting. The Larry Craig thing is because many reps do not like gays not the same thing. And he was arrested trying to hide it, breaking his own laws. When I Google which MO person resigns Eric greitens shows up and there are stories about his campaign related offenses he was charged with, and not against dems. Lots of the comments from people seem to be about the affair as the bad part of this, which should not be the issue. And the sexual assault stuff is again WAY worse than what Coumo was accused of, this guy was actually indicted! (From my quick read screwed by his wife and a fbi agent). These are so far from Apples to apples comparisons. I'm not saying the reps won't remove people if they get arrested, or are gay (why do you think that guy was willing to get arrested he knew he's sexuality would end his career). I mean they stood by Moore when it was bad for them to do politically, any other rep wins that. As shown by tubberville crushing despite incumbents advantage. It is evidence exactly contrary to the point you are trying to make. There is so much wildly off base here, but let's just say a few things. Craig was forced to resign by his own party and colleagues. For Greitens, from a NYT article For months, the governor had defiantly refused to resign, even as a Republican-dominated legislative committee investigated him, read aloud for the record a lurid and lengthy account of his behavior and warned that impeachment was possible. He resigned over that scandal, primarily. Secondly, remember, t he only reason Coumo is now the hot seat is because his COVID coverup is coming to light. The Dems are not and were not going to get rid of him over "inappropriate" behavior, not by itself. Thirdly, I pointed out to you that almost every Republican, with the admittedly notable exception of the president, abandoned Moore, while you continue to say they stuck by him. I mean they stood by Moore when it was bad for them to do politically, any other rep wins that. As shown by tubberville crushing despite incumbents advantage. It is evidence exactly contrary to the point you are trying to make. The bolded shows you don't even really remember what happened. The allegations against Moore were not made until two months after Moore won the primary, and a month before the general. By then it was too late. The choice was Jones (D) or Moore (R). In that light, perhaps Tuberville trouncing Jones actually proves my point! Many Republican voters in AL rejected Moore, electing an R the next time around only shows how Moore was the one they could not bring themselves to vote for. By your logic that ought to be evidence in the Republicans favor. (btw I remember some people actually thinking Jones had a chance in 2020, have to wonder what reality they were living in). The hardest decision people had to make in any of these recent examples is actually the one of AL with a close senate on the line. It took far more political courage, if you will, to abandon Moore than it did/does to leave Franken or Coumo, or Greitens, all of whom have or would have replacements that don't fundamentally alter the power balance. Gillibrand calling to oust Franken cost her nothing, although some allege it cost her in the presidential primary. But let's be real, she wasn't going anywhere anyways. And finally your continued resistance to acknowledge the problem presented by what happened in VA is evidence of your intransigence on this issue. That is the most clear cut example of principle vs. politics and it came out decidedly one way. I don't understand the resistance to acknowledging the clear lessons from all these examples. This is made up. The coverup shit came out first and there was no talk of removing him, the instant multiple claims were made the talk happened. In no way does your take on what the dems think is important track, that is what you think is important. Trump not doing that, when he more or less is the party right now and at the very least by far the most powerful member, come on now and he was not the only one, don't be silly. I honestly do not know what you are talking about in VA I said it was not great that after they called him out they did not impeach. Like I said the Dems can be shitty, and still loads better. And I'm not sure you have read my comments on Franken or understand his charges, because he is not remotely the same as any of these other people. I really don't understand why you don't see this?
From last page
It's politics for both sides, if they force him out for this they can ignore his failure on COVID, which most of the media dutifully ignored until Trump was out. if they focused on that, though, it would bring unwanted attention to other govs like Whitmer, Wolf, and Newsom.
Yes, the fact it took harassments allegations to get some sort of momentum going is making my point. And the fact that these allegations were not made public until the nursing home story hit the front pages of the "respectable" media does as well. Neither of these two things would put Coumo at risk by themselves.
And I'm not sure you have read my comments on Franken or understand his charges, because he is not remotely the same as any of these other people. I really don't understand why you don't see this?
My point is that he was thrown under the bus not because his party is more concerned about personal conduct than their opponents, but because it was useful and risk-free at the time it was done. I have nowhere commented either way on the severity of his behavior.
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funny how no one mentions the pussygrabber in chief, currently failed insurrection leader and QOP hostage taker - and deliverer of CPAC's main speech in the year 2021.
do we really need to look back a couple of years?
I mean, on a certain level you really have to feel for Cuomo. getting shat on for years by the QOP and their leader who has how many actually credible accusers and an avalanche of sexual abuse/assault prosecution coming his way? among them at least one about rape?
"and they want to hang me - for that?!"
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He can at least be hung out to dry, for being a sexist doucheheimr who padded his COVID numbers to try to look like a reasonable foil to Trump. Seriously, fuck that guy. There should be no race to the bottom here. But also, those more shrewd among Republicans had every opportunity imaginable to exercise a similar pragmatism with Trump, and kick him to the curb like the political tumor he is. Folks interested in positing that the Democrats are just as bad should ask themselves why that didn't happen.
Also, fuck current Republicans trying to claim some kind of credit for a bipartisan COVID relief bill. Especially particular Republicans who aided and abetted the events on January 6th. Their asses all voted No the whole way. Dragged kicking and screaming into actually doing fuck all for the American people, and now they want accolades for being the members of the group project who didn't do shit. Not enough that these babies resorted to violence on our capitol for not getting their way.
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On March 14 2021 17:41 Doublemint wrote:
funny how no one mentions the pussygrabber in chief, currently failed insurrection leader and QOP hostage taker - and deliverer of CPAC's main speech in the year 2021.
do we really need to look back a couple of years?
I mean, on a certain level you really have to feel for Cuomo. getting shat on for years by the QOP and their leader who has how many actually credible accusers and an avalanche of sexual abuse/assault prosecution coming his way? among them at least one about rape?
"and they want to hang me - for that?!"
No need to compare the two. You can condemn a serial killer and still also find an abusive father abhorrent.
Besides, Trump should have been charged with dereliction of duty, not citing an insurrection.
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Northern Ireland25466 Posts
I’d be interested to see when MeToo metastasises into a wider conversation about sexual dynamics in the culture, if it does indeed ever happen. Not in any way to belittle the current stage we’re at in any way mind.
I do have to agree with Introvert, not necessarily regarding institutions but those that wear the colours online on various platforms that responses to sexual harassment allegations are rampantly partisan and the Blue side of the equation are happy to drop ‘believe women’ when it’s their guy in the firing line.
Not to say Republicans are better but they don’t make the song and dance about it being an important issue so much in the first place.
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On March 15 2021 09:54 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 17:41 Doublemint wrote:
funny how no one mentions the pussygrabber in chief, currently failed insurrection leader and QOP hostage taker - and deliverer of CPAC's main speech in the year 2021.
do we really need to look back a couple of years?
I mean, on a certain level you really have to feel for Cuomo. getting shat on for years by the QOP and their leader who has how many actually credible accusers and an avalanche of sexual abuse/assault prosecution coming his way? among them at least one about rape?
"and they want to hang me - for that?!"
No need to compare the two. You can condemn a serial killer and still also find an abusive father abhorrent.
Besides, Trump should have been charged with dereliction of duty, not citing an insurrection.
I made my distaste and lack of interest in Cuomo's further career - or rather lack thereof - very clear a couple of pages ago, for all I care he can fuck right off.
besides, agent orange is not seen as serial killer by the people who have the power to throw him to the curb is he? my point simply was that while one party is trying to come to grips with metoo and move right into the 21st century -with all the messiness and making mistakes that incurs... and although the progressive (women) wing will have to drag some kicking and screaming... - another one has the serial killer (somewhat) in charge.
in a sidenote. has anyone seen the public statement he sent out that reads like one of his famously stupid tweets? glorious.
and yeah, he probably should have been. and Cuomo should have been fired for the covid retirement home scandal. but I fear that would open the door for very uncomfortable questions for governors across the US and their handling of covid...
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Didn’t follow the last few pages fully, but I think we are in agreement.
Glorious statement indeed from the cheerleader of the country.
I think Trump will be dumped largely within a year by the party. He’ll run a faux campaign, (this time for real real faux,) and pull out. He doesn’t hold the same attention without the platforms and hype. Nikki Haley will be the counter.
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The GOP didn't dump Trump after he lost and he appears to still be in as much control as he was before. I see no evidence that Republicans will turn around and get rid of him now or in the short future.
The cult of Trump is still very much present and since they appear to be a majority of GOP voters they still control what the GOP does.
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I guess they potentially could try to dump him, their actions thus far are just going in the opposite direction.
he has too large of a chunk of the QOP base, and those voters don't care for anything but him. and if you actually think about how and why jan 6th happened the QOP cares more for him as well. I don't think there are/were circumstances better suited to get rid of someone politically.
every bad thing happening to the GOP is doubly deserved. they played with fire and now complain they are, to no one's surprise, flammable. shrewd political operators that they are(blocking garland AND winning the long shot 2016 campaign was in hindsight as much a stroke of genius as luck...) they bet on Democrats catching fire as well. anything can happen really in '22 and beyond, early history is on the QOPs side funnily enough.
and don't forget "election integrity laws" *cough*votersuppression*cough*
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The thing that holds Trump back from any real stranglehold is that he did in fact lose the election. He’s the biggest loser. Perhaps ever. Once a choker, always a choker.
Peoples lives are moving on. The vaccines are here. States are opening up. People will move on from Trump. Even the die hards. It will be even more embarrassing than the months of election fraud spouting. He’ll retreat into fucking radio only bullshit, once people turn on him
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The biggest thing holding Trump back is that he's banned from social media, IMO. His occasional press release is dutifully read by news stations and then ignored. He can't say batshit crazy things in them or they'll just ignore them. The call ins to Fox News (still baffling that he's allowed even on that channel) are much the same. And honestly boring.
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On March 16 2021 00:14 Nevuk wrote:
The biggest thing holding Trump back is that he's banned from social media, IMO. His occasional press release is dutifully read by news stations and then ignored. He can't say batshit crazy things in them or they'll just ignore them. The call ins to Fox News (still baffling that he's allowed even on that channel) are much the same. And honestly boring.
yes. that was not just his favourite tool but also an incredibly potent one. worth millions upon millions of dollars and for a politician seeking an audience even more than that.
which makes it so much better that him tweeting cheerfully idiotic insurrection messages during and after the storming of the capitol is the reason they took it away from him!
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United States42777 Posts
On March 16 2021 00:14 Nevuk wrote:
The biggest thing holding Trump back is that he's banned from social media, IMO. His occasional press release is dutifully read by news stations and then ignored. He can't say batshit crazy things in them or they'll just ignore them. The call ins to Fox News (still baffling that he's allowed even on that channel) are much the same. And honestly boring.
I’d like to see a return of Mark Hamill reading Trump quotes on air in the style of the Joker. Those were good. He really knew how to express the manic energy. Reading them cold doesn’t capture the foam at the mouth.
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EPT
