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On March 12 2021 19:37 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2021 17:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 12 2021 15:18 Mohdoo wrote:
After Biden’s speech today, I’d like to once again rub people’s face in the fact that they were saying he was not mentally fit for office Well it was always cheap republican propaganda, but lots of people are not too regarding when it's about attacking someone they don't like. On a related note, the amount of narratives that simply don't hold water anymore but that people cling on to because they have invested too much into it is also quite impressive. If anyone is heavily invested in any narrative, it takes a lot of courage to give it up, the easy ways out are often to ignore it or resort to whataboutism. I can easily see a scenario where Bernie were elected president, but ended up splintering the democratic block and causing a decadelong red wave, undoing everything he somehow achieved. Would you still think Bernie was a good choice? I dont' see a big difference between how democrats united to elect Biden and how republicans united to elect Trump. It is the nature of the system, and nothing to be upset about.
The fact that the system forces someone to get behind a candidate they don't actually support because the alternative is so much worse is definitely something to get upset about.
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You don't have to, you can also just lose.
How do you imagine a system that elects "a guy" to not run in this problem?
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I don't think it's possible to avoid those problems entirely given how representative government works, but things would certainly feel less one dimensional were our legislature changed to provide for third parties. As far as President goes, there'll always be some kind of unsatisfying settling.
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On March 12 2021 22:02 farvacola wrote:
I don't think it's possible to avoid those problems entirely given how representative government works, but things would certainly feel less one dimensional were our legislature changed to provide for third parties. As far as President goes, there'll always be some kind of unsatisfying settling.
Yes. An obvious recent example is the first round in the 2017 French president elections, where the first round was a very close 4-way split, leaving nearly 40% of the voters without their favorite candidate in the final round.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_French_presidential_election
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On March 12 2021 22:02 farvacola wrote:
I don't think it's possible to avoid those problems entirely given how representative government works, but things would certainly feel less one dimensional were our legislature changed to provide for third parties. As far as President goes, there'll always be some kind of unsatisfying settling.
Yeah, elections for the executive (or, more precisely, when only a single seat is up for dispute) can be problematic when it's a plurality election. Some things like runoff voting can mitigate these problems, but completely ending it is impossible without some variant of ranked voting.
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The main ways to avoid the plurality problem can also have huge unintentional consequences, and make the timing of when states vote more important than ever. The winner-take-all setup (or 50%-take-all setup) of several key states in the GOP primaries was in part a cushion against awkward plurality delegations, and is a big part of why Trump was able to win. His delegate share outpaced his vote share for a looooong time in those primaries, until it was clear no one else would be able to get a plurality despite him having ~35% of the vote.
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On March 12 2021 22:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2021 19:35 WombaT wrote:On March 12 2021 18:38 Doublemint wrote:On March 12 2021 17:29 WombaT wrote:On March 12 2021 15:18 Mohdoo wrote:
After Biden’s speech today, I’d like to once again rub people’s face in the fact that they were saying he was not mentally fit for office Still not morally fit though :p exactly. anyone sleepy and woke at the same time is morally suspect. Oh god, it was bad enough hearing he was senile, now I’m hearing he’s some sort of 4th dimensional Eldritch horror beyond our puny mortal conceptions of time? Still preferable to Trump mind. But yeah Mohdoo the senility stuff was a huge stretch and something I just generally dislike, along with amateur diagnoses of public figures with mental illness/personality disorders etc. Certainly not a train I was on anyway.
The only caveat to that is if Biden was going senile or what have you that IMO plenty of the DNC establishment would still have pushed him forward as a candidate anyway. I dont nessecarily disagree with this statement, especially because you said it is your opinion, but they are troublesome because it is completely impossible to prove it true or false. I find often people make these kind of statements as a matter of fact and then use them to make future conclusions without ever recognizing that it is not "true" but rather a guess. That does not mean it is wrong, it just also does not mean it is right. If you go back to the Dem thread people were not writing it as their opinion but rather that Biden was senile, that the dems were covering it up, and therefore they were actively screwing Bernie. Soon it just became "fact" that the dems were screwing Bernie with no realization that the base assumptions were assumptions and in this case false (or at least greatly exaggerated) Left people of all levels have been really mad at the right for ignoring science and facts for feelings and "old school wisdom" or whatever. If we want to do that and keep any credibility then we have to stick to that standard ourselves. Biff said it was "republican lies" and while I'm sure they did it too on our thread it was not the Republicans that were calling him senile, or for that matter a rapist, it was people on the left.
Let's be clear, my point is that this angle of attack originated from the Trump campaign. Biden made himself a VERY slippery target by exposing himself very little (which was very clever in hindsight) so they invented that senility stuff.
And of course, some folks on the left absolutely jumped in the bandwagon, just like they jumped in the "Killary is the most corrupt person ever" by parroting Fix News talking points in 2016.
I am waiting to hear how the "Biden is a right wing in disguise and all he wants is to do absolutely nothing to keep the neoliberal status quo" holds against minor facts such as him governing from the left, prioritizing the poor and having had one of the most active starts of any presidents ever elected, but I know we won't get so far.
As Slydie pointed out, it takes an unusually courageous person to say "well, I was wrong, it's not how I predicted". That flexibility is really hard to keep when you fight aggressively for a pre-established narrative for months.
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Senate Majority Leader Schumer (D-NY) and Sen. Gillibrand (D-NY) have joined a slew of state lawmakers and others calling for Gov. Cuomo to resign. Cuomo has refused thus far, so it's increasingly looking like impeachment may be in his future.
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo just lost the support of two of the country's most powerful Democrats — Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. The senators are joining a growing chorus of lawmakers calling for Cuomo's resignation amid allegations of sexual harassment.
New York Assembly Speaker Carl Heastie on Thursday authorized an impeachment investigation into the allegations of misconduct he's facing, and more than 55 state lawmakers said in a letter Thursday that they want the governor out.
"The budget, the fight against COVID-19, and restarting the economy all depend on clear and trustworthy leadership," the letter said. "In light of the governor's admission of inappropriate behavior and the findings of altered data on nursing home COVID-19 deaths he has lost the confidence of the public and the state legislature, rendering him ineffective in this time of most urgent need."
www.cbsnews.com
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Cuomo is 100% fucked. Its kind of weird/funny how republicans are trying to pretend this is Obama or Bernie or something. Cuomo was only a big deal because he had the state with the most covid early on. I feel like he's not actually a significant person and even if he was, it wouldn't really mean anything. Plenty of bad people find their way into political parties, its just a part of who politics attracts.
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United States10402 Posts
On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact.
I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense.
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On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense.
Yes. Most of the Senate did. Most of them have since expressed regret for not letting an ethics investigation happen first. Gillibrand was the first big figure.
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On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense.
It's politics for both sides, if they force him out for this they can ignore his failure on COVID, which most of the media dutifully ignored until Trump was out. if they focused on that, though, it would bring unwanted attention to other govs like Whitmer, Wolf, and Newsom. Coumo saw that Northam and the Lt. Gov in VA were able to ride out their own scandals and is going to try, but there's no danger of a Republican replacing them like there was in VA so we'll see (both VA senators called on Northam to leave, and Kaine said that Fairfax should too). The Coumo allegations are also much better founded than the Moore ones were (not saying the Moore ones were less likely true than false), we even have that creepy picture, more witnesses, and the conduct is alleged much more recently. I don't blame the women for waiting for the COVID stories though, even though Coumo has lots of enemies in NY he's still a powerful figure who was being lauded by his party mere months ago. Now is the best time to actually make a difference.
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On March 14 2021 04:27 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. Yes lots and I think history will look pretty positively on Franken, there was a lot more hype then substance on that one. No way remotely should it be mentioned with Roy Moore, so totally different levels. Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 04:18 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. It's politics for both sides, if they force him out for this they can ignore his failure on COVID, which most of the media dutifully ignored until Trump was out. if they focused on that, though, it would bring unwanted attention to other govs like Whitmer, Wolf, and Newsom. Coumo saw that Northam and the Lt. Gov were VA was able to ride out their own scandals and is going to try, but there's no danger of a Republican replacing them like there was in VA so we'll see. (Both VA senators called on Northam to leave, and Kaine said that Fairfax should too). The Coumo allegations are also much better founded than the Moore ones were (not saying the Moore ones were less likely true than false), we even have that creepy picture, more witnesses, and the conduct is alleged much more recently. I don't blame the women for waiting for the COVID stories though, even though Coumo has lots of enemies in NY he's still a powerful figure who was being lauded by his party mere months ago. Now is the best time to actually make a difference. You also seem to be missing that Moores included children and had ample proof. Also another big difference is there is no talk of criminality with Coumo. It should be extremely embarrassing for your party of choice that they defended him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_misconduct_allegations#:~:text=In November 2017, multiple women,chief justice, and district attorney.
You have got to let go of this idea that the parties act on these things out of principle. Justin Fairfax is still Lt. Gov of Virginia. Franken got caught at the height of MeToo when the Dems were going hard on Trump, and now they are talking about Coumo, because his COVID screws-up are finally getting more coverage. Meanwhile if you read your own wikipedia article you'd see that lots of Republican politicians pulled their support from Moore, though again, there were fewer witnesses to any particular conduct so many years ago, so they refused to endorse Jones. And as I alluded to above, people have their own agendas that they will use. Many people in NY don't like Coumo, just as many Senators dreaded the idea of having Moore as a colleague anyways.
Coumo should be removed for his COVID nursing home deathtoll, but if this is the way it happens then whatever.
edit: again, think about how the balance of power changes for all these things. In AL, it was either Moore or Jones, R or D, when the seat was currently held by a Republican. In MN, Franken would be, and was, replaced with a Democrat by a Democrat gov. In VA, all momentum to replace Northam died the moment the allegation against Fairfax came out, as the AG had an issue like Northam's (IIRC) so therefore the next in line for the gov mansion was a Republican. In NY, Coumo would be replaced by another Democrat. This is quite easy to see.
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On March 14 2021 05:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 04:42 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 04:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. Yes lots and I think history will look pretty positively on Franken, there was a lot more hype then substance on that one. No way remotely should it be mentioned with Roy Moore, so totally different levels. On March 14 2021 04:18 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2021 03:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 14 2021 02:40 JimmiC wrote:
It is also completely different from anything the Republicans have done because there is Democrats pushing for him to be ousted. Meaning it is not a partisan thing when they think that Reps who have harassed and worse should be removed as they also think it for Dems.
The Dems take this type of thing serious and the Reps don't, that is just fact. I can't recall that well, but did any really big named Democrats call for Al Franken to resign during the whole Metoo movement with Roy Moore? Because he did eventually resign when he was called out, but from what I saw, there were a lot of people coming to his defense. It's politics for both sides, if they force him out for this they can ignore his failure on COVID, which most of the media dutifully ignored until Trump was out. if they focused on that, though, it would bring unwanted attention to other govs like Whitmer, Wolf, and Newsom. Coumo saw that Northam and the Lt. Gov were VA was able to ride out their own scandals and is going to try, but there's no danger of a Republican replacing them like there was in VA so we'll see. (Both VA senators called on Northam to leave, and Kaine said that Fairfax should too). The Coumo allegations are also much better founded than the Moore ones were (not saying the Moore ones were less likely true than false), we even have that creepy picture, more witnesses, and the conduct is alleged much more recently. I don't blame the women for waiting for the COVID stories though, even though Coumo has lots of enemies in NY he's still a powerful figure who was being lauded by his party mere months ago. Now is the best time to actually make a difference. You also seem to be missing that Moores included children and had ample proof. Also another big difference is there is no talk of criminality with Coumo. It should be extremely embarrassing for your party of choice that they defended him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_misconduct_allegations#:~:text=In November 2017, multiple women,chief justice, and district attorney. You have got to let go of this idea that the parties act on these things out of principle. Justin Fairfax is still Lt. Gov of Virginia. Franken got caught at the height of MeToo when the Dems were going hard on Trump, and now they are talking about Coumo, because his COVID screws-up are finally getting more coverage. Meanwhile if you read your own wikipedia article you'd see that lots of Republican politicians pulled their support from Moore, though again, there were fewer witnesses to any particular conduct so many years ago, so they refused to endorse Jones. And as I alluded to above, people have their own agendas that they will use. Many people in NY don't like Coumo, just as many Senators dreaded the idea of having Moore as a colleague anyways. Coumo should be removed for his COVID nursing home deathtoll, but if this is the way it happens then whatever. edit: again, think about how the balance of power changes for all these things. In AL, it was either Moore or Jones, R or D, when the seat was currently held by a Republican. In MN, Franken would be, and was, replaced with a Democrat by a Democrat gov. In VA, all momentum to replace Northam died the moment the allegation against Fairfax came out, as the AG had an issue like Northam's (IIRC) so therefore the next in line for the gov mansion was a Republican. In NY, Coumo would be replaced by another Democrat. This is quite easy to see. Even with fairfax tons of dems spoke out against him, I get that they didn't follow through with the impeachment, but again there is way less proof then with Moore, its not involving children. If you want to counter my point. Show me a republican anywhere, that the party has admonished for sexual harassment or assault. You seem to be arguing that it is the same because the Dems have not done it every time, that is not great, the Reps have done it never. So again not great is a lot better than never. The Dems are not some amazing political party of great people who I support and do everything I want, not even close. It is just that they are so much better than the Republicans in some very basic and important ways.
In 2009, Larry Craig was forced out for allegedly soliciting sex in airport bathrooms, and in 2018 the Republican gov of MO was forced to resign, in large part, for blackmailing a woman with whom he was having an affair. Those are two just off the top of my head.
The part that makes the VA example so illuminating is that the Democrats were gung-ho to force them both out until the AG was found to have the same problem Northam did, thus putting the Democrat control of VA at risk. It was so plainly obvious what was happening, and yet...
I don't give these examples to go back and forth, because I maintain my position that this is posturing. If Franken's seat was going to be filled by a Republican, he'd still be in the Senate. What's actually happened is that you haven't even bothered to look for any evidence for or against what you are claiming, which in itself is remarkable because common political cynicism would lead you to the opportunistic answer anyways.
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EPT
