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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3110

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25470 Posts
March 06 2021 21:18 GMT
#62181
For all Donald Trump’s myriad faults he rode the political wind and bent the GOP to such an extent that he shifted the whole agenda over, and they voted to not impeach a man who’d incited a storming of the Capitol by individuals who were chanting about hanging prominent Republicans.

Dems come to the table and they’re watering down their own platforms from the off.

There are innumerable hurdles sure, no arguments there but it’s not as if they’re visibly pushing hard.

The Trump phenomenon is strange sure, perhaps not replicable either but the contrast is pretty stark. Trump had GOP legislators towing the line to such a degree that Trump probably could have fucked Ted Cruz’s wife in front of him and he’d have put up with it.

I don’t think that cult of personality is something that’s desirous at all, but a lesser version of hey we got the Presidency, here are some of our key policies and get with the program are pretty notable by their absence.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-06 21:19:35
March 06 2021 21:18 GMT
#62182
My, how the goalposts move.

When Trump + republicans had presidency and senate: Those Republicans are in charge, we can't implement any change!

When Dems have the presidency + a split senate which the VP can overturn: (write a one page essay about political nuance and why even though Democrats are technically in charge, no changes can be implemented).

I've been done with this for a long time, and I definitely saw it coming. I'm not even convinced the majority of Democrats even want the $15 minimum wage-- I would happily vote for a 200% tax increase to help the poor just to make myself look good because I know it'd never pass. "Vote blue no matter who", possibly the cult-iest saying I've ever heard, sure is working wonders.

I wish for once I could vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone else.
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21705 Posts
March 06 2021 21:38 GMT
#62183
Its easier to look unified when your not actually trying to pass anything. And by comparison the Dems look weak because they actually try to get something done.

The GOP managed their corp tax break, but failed on PP and the ACA.

Not to excuse the dems for failing to pass min wage legislation but one failure doesn't mean its the end.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-06 22:24:44
March 06 2021 21:50 GMT
#62184
Democrats definitely are showing their faults, from a lack of drive to really push their advantage in legislation, to even wanting to work with Republicans at times and voting down their own bills. They absolutely need to feel a fire under their asses in response to that. I do, however, also notice Democrats and Biden being held to standards by the media/voters that suddenly popped into existence the moment Trump left. Trump and Republicans routinely enjoyed softball headlines, questions, and reporting, when they absolutely needed to be called out for every last deplorable act they took, whereas Biden is now being grilled for coming up with a COVID stimulus and relief package that somehow doesn't whisk all of humanity out of this mess at once. The standards for decency and leadership only seem to apply to Democrats. Republicans are expected to behave like corrupt shitlords, so when they do it nobody blinks.

Contrast Biden's actions with where we would be if Trump were still in office: we wouldn't be getting shit. Trump, Mnuchin, Cruz, McConnell and all those other assholes would still be wondering aloud why the $600 they gave us months ago isn't enough. People would shrug their shoulders and rattle off some political version of "Boys Will Be Boys" excuse-making for their atrocious leadership. Obviously I think it could've been better, we could have gotten more relief, faster, but yes, I am also going to say that this is materially better than the alternative.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8541 Posts
March 06 2021 22:52 GMT
#62185
well, after all the doom and gloom of the last couple of pages. some good news!

The Senate passed $1.9T COVID bill - that's in it via AP

AID TO THE UNEMPLOYED

Expanded unemployment benefits from the federal government would be extended through Sept. 6 at $300 a week. That’s on top of what beneficiaries are getting through their state unemployment insurance program. The first $10,200 of jobless benefits would be non-taxable for households with incomes under $150,000.

Additionally, the measures provides a 100% subsidy of COBRA health insurance premiums to ensure that the laid-off workers can remain on their employer health plans at no cost through the end of September.

MORE CHECKS

The legislation provides a direct payment of $1,400 for a single taxpayer, or $2,800 for a married couple that files jointly, plus $1,400 per dependent. Individuals earning up to $75,000 would get the full amount, as would married couples with incomes up to $150,000.

The size of the check would shrink for those making slightly more, with a hard cut-off at $80,000 for individuals and $160,000 for married couples.

Most Americans will be getting the full amount. The median household income was $68,703 in 2019, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

MONEY FOR STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

The legislation would send $350 billion to state and local governments and tribal governments for costs incurred up until the end of 2024. The bill also requires that small states get at least the amount they received under virus legislation that Congress passed last March.

Many communities have taken hits to their tax base during the pandemic, but the impact varies from state to state and from town to town. Critics say the funding is not appropriately targeted and is far more than necessary with billions of dollars allocated last spring to states and communities still unspent.

AID TO SCHOOLS

The bill calls for about $130 billion in additional help to schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade. The money would be used to reduce class sizes and modify classrooms to enhance social distancing, install ventilation systems and purchase personal protective equipment. The money could also be used to increase the hiring of nurses and counselors and to provide summer school.

Spending for colleges and universities would be boosted by about $40 billion, with the money used to defray an institution’s pandemic-related expenses and to provide emergency aid to students to cover expenses such as food and housing and computer equipment.

AID TO BUSINESSES

A new program for restaurants and bars hurt by the pandemic would receive $25 billion. The grants provide up to $10 million per company with a limit of $5 million per physical location. The grants can be used to cover payroll, rent, utilities and other operational expenses.

The bill also provides $7.25 billion for the Paycheck Protection Program, a tiny fraction of what was allocated in previous legislation. The bill also allows more non-profits to apply for loans that are designed to help borrowers meet their payroll and operating costs and can potentially be forgiven.

TESTING AND VACCINES

The bill provides $46 billion to expand federal, state and local testing for COVID-19 and to enhance contract tracing capabilities with new investments to expand laboratory capacity and set up mobile testing units. It also contains about $14 billion to speed up the distribution and administration of COVID-19 vaccines across the country.

HEALTH CARE

Parts of the legislation advance longstanding Democratic priorities like increasing coverage under the Obama-era Affordable Care Act. Financial assistance for ACA premiums would become considerably more generous and a greater number of solid middle-class households would qualify. Though the sweetened subsidies last only through the end of 2022, they will lower the cost of coverage and are expected to boost the number of people enrolled.

The measure also dangles more money in front of a dozen states, mainly in the South, that have not yet taken up the Medicaid expansion that is available under the ACA to cover more low-income adults. Whether such a sweetener would be enough to start wearing down longstanding Republican opposition to Medicaid expansion is uncertain.

BIGGER TAX BREAKS FOR HOUSEHOLDS WITH AND WITHOUT KIDS

Under current law, most taxpayers can reduce their federal income tax bill by up to $2,000 per child. In a significant change, the bill would increase the tax break to $3,000 for every child age 6 to 17 and $3,600 for every child under the age of 6.

The legislation also calls for the payments to be delivered monthly instead of in a lump sum. If the secretary of the Treasury determines that isn’t feasible, then the payments are to be made as frequently as possible.

Families would get the full credit regardless of how little they make in a year, leading to criticism that the changes would serve as a disincentive to work. Add in the $1,400 checks and other items in the proposal, and the legislation would reduce the number of children living in poverty by more than half, according to the Center on Poverty and Social Policy at Columbia University.

The bill also significantly expands the Earned Income Tax Credit for 2021 by making it available to people without children. The credit for low and moderate-income adults would be worth $543 to $1,502, depending on income and filing status.

RENTAL AND HOMEOWNER ASSISTANCE

The bill provides about $30 billion to help low-income households and the unemployed afford rent and utilities, and to assist the homeless with vouchers and other support. States and tribes would receive an additional $10 billion for homeowners who are struggling with mortgage payments because of the pandemic.


the House is supposed to finalize the bill to get it on Biden's desk on tuesday. a lot of good stuff in there, sure a lot could be more targeted and more could go to more low income folks. but I feel like it's still pretty good. add to that declining daily Covid cases and more people getting vaccinated - things are starting to look up!

JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 06 2021 22:55 GMT
#62186
--- Nuked ---
NrG.Bamboo
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2756 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-06 23:38:37
March 06 2021 23:30 GMT
#62187
On March 07 2021 06:50 NewSunshine wrote:
I do, however, also notice Democrats and Biden being held to standards by the media/voters that suddenly popped into existence the moment Trump left. Trump and Republicans routinely enjoyed softball headlines, questions, and reporting, when they absolutely needed to be called out for every last deplorable act they took, whereas Biden is now being grilled for coming up with a COVID stimulus and relief package that somehow doesn't whisk all of humanity out of this mess at once.

Wait.. Trump and the Republicans enjoyed easy treatment from the media? I am rather confused, and now questioning my memories. If I recall correctly, the past 4 years has been consistent complaining about and berating that administration and its supporters from just about anyone with a microphone (not to say that a lot of it wasn't warranted.)
I need to protect all your life you can enjoy the vibrant life of your battery
Mazer
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada1086 Posts
March 07 2021 00:06 GMT
#62188
On March 07 2021 08:30 NrG.Bamboo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2021 06:50 NewSunshine wrote:
I do, however, also notice Democrats and Biden being held to standards by the media/voters that suddenly popped into existence the moment Trump left. Trump and Republicans routinely enjoyed softball headlines, questions, and reporting, when they absolutely needed to be called out for every last deplorable act they took, whereas Biden is now being grilled for coming up with a COVID stimulus and relief package that somehow doesn't whisk all of humanity out of this mess at once.

Wait.. Trump and the Republicans enjoyed easy treatment from the media? I am rather confused, and now questioning my memories. If I recall correctly, the past 4 years has been consistent complaining about and berating that administration and its supporters from just about anyone with a microphone (not to say that a lot of it wasn't warranted.)


Eh, there are dozens of GOP (and some Dems too) that shouldn't be interviewed anymore after the bullshit they've spread but most news orgs are there for the views and will gladly host them if it gets interest. Rarely are they actually held accountable or forced to explain their positions on things factually. Trump benefitted from this massively in the lead-up to the election for sure.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2021 00:17 GMT
#62189
--- Nuked ---
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8541 Posts
March 07 2021 01:04 GMT
#62190
you don't make your major interactions with the media about how they are "fake news" and that they are the enemy of the people... and in good faith expect "fair and balanced" treatment lol.
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7312 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-07 04:05:54
March 07 2021 03:57 GMT
#62191
On March 07 2021 01:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2021 00:34 Simberto wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:17 JimmiC wrote:
Why is the messaging on raising the.minimum wage doing so poorly with so many?


Most people vote for social policy like religious freedom, gun rights, or pro choice rather than for economic policies.


And only having two options makes this problem a lot worse. If the choice is between Trump and basically anything else, you have to vote for the other thing. In a multi-party system you could vote for what you actually want, but in the US, you cannot. You can only decide between "insane" and "doesn't do what i want".


That is giving far too much credit to the presidency. Take this thread's favorite senator to shit talk, Manchin. In 2018 he was up for reelection and Swearengin, a progressive (15 minimum wage, medicare for all, drug legalization), tried to primary him. Manchin won the primary with a 70-30 split and went on to maintain his senate seat. In 2020 Swearengin ran again as the other senator of WV was up for election, but he's a Republican. She won the primary, but got dumpstered in the election again in a 70-30 split.

The conclusion you'll read in this thread is that Machin is the problem and democrats should primary him. Reality is that a progressive has tried to run for WV Senate and lost by a overwhelming margin each time and it isn't because they had the choice between Trump and not Trump.

Show nested quote +
On March 07 2021 00:53 Zambrah wrote:
Another good example are Florida's senators voting against including the 15 dollar minimum wage in the bill despite Florida literally just having passed a 15 dollar minimum wage. Voters have expressed enough interest in this policy in Florida to literally have passed it and yet their politicians vote against it.


Listen to BisuDagger who lives in Florida, voted for this policy, and is also against the federal minimum wage. There is no hypocrisy in thinking that minimum wages are better set at the state or city level than the federal level.


The Democrats are the problem and Manchin is their last vestige of success in that state because of their fuck awful mediocrity.

Robert Byrd, Democrat, was WV's Senator from '58 to '06 when he died. Carte Goodwin, Democrat, was the next one 'til 2010, when Manchin became Senator. So this seat has been Blue for decades.

The other Senate seat was held by Jennings Randolph, Democrat, from '58 to '85. From '85 to 2015 the Senator was Jay Rockefeller, Democrat.

So in over the last shit ton of decades West Virginia has had all of like six years of a singular Republican Senator.

Manchin was initially elected with 54% of the vote, and in his most recent election he squeaked by with a margin of 49.57%-46.26%

Democrats are weak, ineffectual politicians who give zero shits for the working class which is why they're letting what has been a super Blue state in the Senate for decades slip away.

Joe Manchin is not some super popular anomaly in West Virginia, he is a blue Senator in a formly super blue state thats party has been doing such a phenomenally mediocre job that the super blue state is shifting red.

But I'm sure letting Joe Manchin sabotage popular policy is smart! After all, his one seat that hes on track to lose to a Republican is totally worth losing other important seats that might be won by, you know, Democrats actively decisively to improve the lives of working class people.

Democrats are the reason that a formerly blue state is turning Red. Manchin is the last vestige of success Democrats will see in West Virginia until they support things people actually want instead of pretending that theyre so powerless in the face of unelected advisory officials, and are willing to whip people into supporting the popular parts of the party's platform. 'Til then West Virginia will keep turning red and Manchin's seat is going to be in more and more peril 'til he loses it.

On March 07 2021 06:18 mierin wrote:
My, how the goalposts move.

When Trump + republicans had presidency and senate: Those Republicans are in charge, we can't implement any change!

When Dems have the presidency + a split senate which the VP can overturn: (write a one page essay about political nuance and why even though Democrats are technically in charge, no changes can be implemented).

I've been done with this for a long time, and I definitely saw it coming. I'm not even convinced the majority of Democrats even want the $15 minimum wage-- I would happily vote for a 200% tax increase to help the poor just to make myself look good because I know it'd never pass. "Vote blue no matter who", possibly the cult-iest saying I've ever heard, sure is working wonders.

I wish for once I could vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone else.


You ARE voting for someone, by voting for someone you're voting in affirmation of all of their actions and beliefs, because thats how it works in America. If I voted for Biden what that means is that despite the fact that I want a minimum wage increase I actually DON'T want a minimum wage increase, or any of the things I do want because I would have voted for Trump if I wanted those things despite Trump also not wanting anything that I want. So with those two candidates who don't represent me I get to choose one that will have their views transposed on me because I have no other options, which will give the illusion of popularity to people who are only supported begrudgingly and because we have no other choice.

When 40 - 50% of the country actively doesn't vote it might be worth considering how popular any of these fuckers actually are.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2021 06:22 GMT
#62192
--- Nuked ---
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7312 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-07 07:12:23
March 07 2021 07:01 GMT
#62193
On March 07 2021 15:22 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2021 12:57 Zambrah wrote:
On March 07 2021 01:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:34 Simberto wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:17 JimmiC wrote:
Why is the messaging on raising the.minimum wage doing so poorly with so many?


Most people vote for social policy like religious freedom, gun rights, or pro choice rather than for economic policies.


And only having two options makes this problem a lot worse. If the choice is between Trump and basically anything else, you have to vote for the other thing. In a multi-party system you could vote for what you actually want, but in the US, you cannot. You can only decide between "insane" and "doesn't do what i want".


That is giving far too much credit to the presidency. Take this thread's favorite senator to shit talk, Manchin. In 2018 he was up for reelection and Swearengin, a progressive (15 minimum wage, medicare for all, drug legalization), tried to primary him. Manchin won the primary with a 70-30 split and went on to maintain his senate seat. In 2020 Swearengin ran again as the other senator of WV was up for election, but he's a Republican. She won the primary, but got dumpstered in the election again in a 70-30 split.

The conclusion you'll read in this thread is that Machin is the problem and democrats should primary him. Reality is that a progressive has tried to run for WV Senate and lost by a overwhelming margin each time and it isn't because they had the choice between Trump and not Trump.

On March 07 2021 00:53 Zambrah wrote:
Another good example are Florida's senators voting against including the 15 dollar minimum wage in the bill despite Florida literally just having passed a 15 dollar minimum wage. Voters have expressed enough interest in this policy in Florida to literally have passed it and yet their politicians vote against it.


Listen to BisuDagger who lives in Florida, voted for this policy, and is also against the federal minimum wage. There is no hypocrisy in thinking that minimum wages are better set at the state or city level than the federal level.


The Democrats are the problem and Manchin is their last vestige of success in that state because of their fuck awful mediocrity.

Robert Byrd, Democrat, was WV's Senator from '58 to '06 when he died. Carte Goodwin, Democrat, was the next one 'til 2010, when Manchin became Senator. So this seat has been Blue for decades.

The other Senate seat was held by Jennings Randolph, Democrat, from '58 to '85. From '85 to 2015 the Senator was Jay Rockefeller, Democrat.

So in over the last shit ton of decades West Virginia has had all of like six years of a singular Republican Senator.

Manchin was initially elected with 54% of the vote, and in his most recent election he squeaked by with a margin of 49.57%-46.26%

Democrats are weak, ineffectual politicians who give zero shits for the working class which is why they're letting what has been a super Blue state in the Senate for decades slip away.

Joe Manchin is not some super popular anomaly in West Virginia, he is a blue Senator in a formly super blue state thats party has been doing such a phenomenally mediocre job that the super blue state is shifting red.

But I'm sure letting Joe Manchin sabotage popular policy is smart! After all, his one seat that hes on track to lose to a Republican is totally worth losing other important seats that might be won by, you know, Democrats actively decisively to improve the lives of working class people.

Democrats are the reason that a formerly blue state is turning Red. Manchin is the last vestige of success Democrats will see in West Virginia until they support things people actually want instead of pretending that theyre so powerless in the face of unelected advisory officials, and are willing to whip people into supporting the popular parts of the party's platform. 'Til then West Virginia will keep turning red and Manchin's seat is going to be in more and more peril 'til he loses it.

On March 07 2021 06:18 mierin wrote:
My, how the goalposts move.

When Trump + republicans had presidency and senate: Those Republicans are in charge, we can't implement any change!

When Dems have the presidency + a split senate which the VP can overturn: (write a one page essay about political nuance and why even though Democrats are technically in charge, no changes can be implemented).

I've been done with this for a long time, and I definitely saw it coming. I'm not even convinced the majority of Democrats even want the $15 minimum wage-- I would happily vote for a 200% tax increase to help the poor just to make myself look good because I know it'd never pass. "Vote blue no matter who", possibly the cult-iest saying I've ever heard, sure is working wonders.

I wish for once I could vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone else.


You ARE voting for someone, by voting for someone you're voting in affirmation of all of their actions and beliefs, because thats how it works in America. If I voted for Biden what that means is that despite the fact that I want a minimum wage increase I actually DON'T want a minimum wage increase, or any of the things I do want because I would have voted for Trump if I wanted those things despite Trump also not wanting anything that I want. So with those two candidates who don't represent me I get to choose one that will have their views transposed on me because I have no other options, which will give the illusion of popularity to people who are only supported begrudgingly and because we have no other choice.

When 40 - 50% of the country actively doesn't vote it might be worth considering how popular any of these fuckers actually are.

Yes the Dems hold it, but not the dems that want what you want, they are the ones that want center right policy that the reps don't. And because there is few of you on the left you need them to get anything left of the reps past them. You don't need to be kicking out your right dems you need to figure out how to convince them of your policy.


What we need is to have leadership capable of whipping votes. Noone is talking about how the Republicans are all voting in perfect unison against this because we've all accepted that they do a good job of whipping their votes.

Democrats seem incapable of it.

Democrats also don't seem to support popular policy, so its not just that they dont support what I want, but they dont seem to support what their constituents want.

The reason for this is Democrats don't represent their constituents they represent their donors and friends and dont give a flying fuck about helping people. If they gave a shit and actually wielded power like Republicans wield power they'd crush elections and stop letting states like West Virginia go red. West Virginia hadn't had a Republican win a congressional race from the 80s til 2000, and now they're only set to get redder and redder as Democrats ignore the needs of the working class.

If Democrats gave a fuck they'd tell Manchin that if he wanted campaign funding he'd do what hes told on this bill. Same for Sinema and the other conservatives. Instead we had Delaware's Senators vote against reincluding the minimum wage in the bill. Delaware, the state that the president is from, if Joe Biden wanted to he could easily whip those votes himself. This entire bill has done nothing but show that Democrats never intended to do the things they promised. They've weaseled out of it as hard as they can. 2,000 dollar checks immediately became 1,400 dollar checks like two months later, oh, and knocking down unemployment benefits from 400 to 300, not to mention restricting who gets the checks denying help to another 17 million people. They did this for what? Republicans didn't vote for it. They did it because Manchin and the conservative fuckballs asked and Democrats are letting them run the show.

I say they're letting them because as I've stated before they have myriad ways to threaten them to vote in line, but they're choosing not to. The only reason Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema aka Marie Antoinette have so much power in this congress is because Democrats are using them to play their usual "whoops we cant we're powerless" games and its transparent bullshit.

Voters aren't to blame. Voters don't have a choice in any of this. Its the politicians who are beholden to nobody but their donors to blame, blaming the people in this country who are suffering at the hands of callous politicians is blaming the victims of American politics.

Defending Joe Manchin and Sinema and Biden and the Democrats in moments like these is bullshit, they need to be called out for their constant feigned weakness. They had the chance to fulfill campaign promises and actively decided not to, that is not something to accept.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21705 Posts
March 07 2021 09:53 GMT
#62194
On March 07 2021 16:01 Zambrah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2021 15:22 JimmiC wrote:
On March 07 2021 12:57 Zambrah wrote:
On March 07 2021 01:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:34 Simberto wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 07 2021 00:17 JimmiC wrote:
Why is the messaging on raising the.minimum wage doing so poorly with so many?


Most people vote for social policy like religious freedom, gun rights, or pro choice rather than for economic policies.


And only having two options makes this problem a lot worse. If the choice is between Trump and basically anything else, you have to vote for the other thing. In a multi-party system you could vote for what you actually want, but in the US, you cannot. You can only decide between "insane" and "doesn't do what i want".


That is giving far too much credit to the presidency. Take this thread's favorite senator to shit talk, Manchin. In 2018 he was up for reelection and Swearengin, a progressive (15 minimum wage, medicare for all, drug legalization), tried to primary him. Manchin won the primary with a 70-30 split and went on to maintain his senate seat. In 2020 Swearengin ran again as the other senator of WV was up for election, but he's a Republican. She won the primary, but got dumpstered in the election again in a 70-30 split.

The conclusion you'll read in this thread is that Machin is the problem and democrats should primary him. Reality is that a progressive has tried to run for WV Senate and lost by a overwhelming margin each time and it isn't because they had the choice between Trump and not Trump.

On March 07 2021 00:53 Zambrah wrote:
Another good example are Florida's senators voting against including the 15 dollar minimum wage in the bill despite Florida literally just having passed a 15 dollar minimum wage. Voters have expressed enough interest in this policy in Florida to literally have passed it and yet their politicians vote against it.


Listen to BisuDagger who lives in Florida, voted for this policy, and is also against the federal minimum wage. There is no hypocrisy in thinking that minimum wages are better set at the state or city level than the federal level.


The Democrats are the problem and Manchin is their last vestige of success in that state because of their fuck awful mediocrity.

Robert Byrd, Democrat, was WV's Senator from '58 to '06 when he died. Carte Goodwin, Democrat, was the next one 'til 2010, when Manchin became Senator. So this seat has been Blue for decades.

The other Senate seat was held by Jennings Randolph, Democrat, from '58 to '85. From '85 to 2015 the Senator was Jay Rockefeller, Democrat.

So in over the last shit ton of decades West Virginia has had all of like six years of a singular Republican Senator.

Manchin was initially elected with 54% of the vote, and in his most recent election he squeaked by with a margin of 49.57%-46.26%

Democrats are weak, ineffectual politicians who give zero shits for the working class which is why they're letting what has been a super Blue state in the Senate for decades slip away.

Joe Manchin is not some super popular anomaly in West Virginia, he is a blue Senator in a formly super blue state thats party has been doing such a phenomenally mediocre job that the super blue state is shifting red.

But I'm sure letting Joe Manchin sabotage popular policy is smart! After all, his one seat that hes on track to lose to a Republican is totally worth losing other important seats that might be won by, you know, Democrats actively decisively to improve the lives of working class people.

Democrats are the reason that a formerly blue state is turning Red. Manchin is the last vestige of success Democrats will see in West Virginia until they support things people actually want instead of pretending that theyre so powerless in the face of unelected advisory officials, and are willing to whip people into supporting the popular parts of the party's platform. 'Til then West Virginia will keep turning red and Manchin's seat is going to be in more and more peril 'til he loses it.

On March 07 2021 06:18 mierin wrote:
My, how the goalposts move.

When Trump + republicans had presidency and senate: Those Republicans are in charge, we can't implement any change!

When Dems have the presidency + a split senate which the VP can overturn: (write a one page essay about political nuance and why even though Democrats are technically in charge, no changes can be implemented).

I've been done with this for a long time, and I definitely saw it coming. I'm not even convinced the majority of Democrats even want the $15 minimum wage-- I would happily vote for a 200% tax increase to help the poor just to make myself look good because I know it'd never pass. "Vote blue no matter who", possibly the cult-iest saying I've ever heard, sure is working wonders.

I wish for once I could vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone else.


You ARE voting for someone, by voting for someone you're voting in affirmation of all of their actions and beliefs, because thats how it works in America. If I voted for Biden what that means is that despite the fact that I want a minimum wage increase I actually DON'T want a minimum wage increase, or any of the things I do want because I would have voted for Trump if I wanted those things despite Trump also not wanting anything that I want. So with those two candidates who don't represent me I get to choose one that will have their views transposed on me because I have no other options, which will give the illusion of popularity to people who are only supported begrudgingly and because we have no other choice.

When 40 - 50% of the country actively doesn't vote it might be worth considering how popular any of these fuckers actually are.

Yes the Dems hold it, but not the dems that want what you want, they are the ones that want center right policy that the reps don't. And because there is few of you on the left you need them to get anything left of the reps past them. You don't need to be kicking out your right dems you need to figure out how to convince them of your policy.


What we need is to have leadership capable of whipping votes. Noone is talking about how the Republicans are all voting in perfect unison against this because we've all accepted that they do a good job of whipping their votes.

Democrats seem incapable of it.

Democrats also don't seem to support popular policy, so its not just that they dont support what I want, but they dont seem to support what their constituents want.

The reason for this is Democrats don't represent their constituents they represent their donors and friends and dont give a flying fuck about helping people. If they gave a shit and actually wielded power like Republicans wield power they'd crush elections and stop letting states like West Virginia go red. West Virginia hadn't had a Republican win a congressional race from the 80s til 2000, and now they're only set to get redder and redder as Democrats ignore the needs of the working class.

If Democrats gave a fuck they'd tell Manchin that if he wanted campaign funding he'd do what hes told on this bill. Same for Sinema and the other conservatives. Instead we had Delaware's Senators vote against reincluding the minimum wage in the bill. Delaware, the state that the president is from, if Joe Biden wanted to he could easily whip those votes himself. This entire bill has done nothing but show that Democrats never intended to do the things they promised. They've weaseled out of it as hard as they can. 2,000 dollar checks immediately became 1,400 dollar checks like two months later, oh, and knocking down unemployment benefits from 400 to 300, not to mention restricting who gets the checks denying help to another 17 million people. They did this for what? Republicans didn't vote for it. They did it because Manchin and the conservative fuckballs asked and Democrats are letting them run the show.

I say they're letting them because as I've stated before they have myriad ways to threaten them to vote in line, but they're choosing not to. The only reason Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema aka Marie Antoinette have so much power in this congress is because Democrats are using them to play their usual "whoops we cant we're powerless" games and its transparent bullshit.

Voters aren't to blame. Voters don't have a choice in any of this. Its the politicians who are beholden to nobody but their donors to blame, blaming the people in this country who are suffering at the hands of callous politicians is blaming the victims of American politics.

Defending Joe Manchin and Sinema and Biden and the Democrats in moments like these is bullshit, they need to be called out for their constant feigned weakness. They had the chance to fulfill campaign promises and actively decided not to, that is not something to accept.
"Republicans always vote the same"
except when they don't.

Planned Parenthood hasn't been defunded, the ACA is still here. Why didn't Republicans vote in lockstep there?

How are the voters not to blame when they keep voting for these people who you say don't represent their interests.
If Manchins constituents don't like what he is doing why does he keep beating more progressives candidates in the primary?
How the F* is it not their fault when they keep voting for him over other 'better' options?

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7312 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-07 11:00:31
March 07 2021 10:31 GMT
#62195
"Republicans always vote the same"
except when they don't.

Planned Parenthood hasn't been defunded, the ACA is still here. Why didn't Republicans vote in lockstep there?


If Republicans weren't a reliable voting block that could be whipped into line properly then Joe "Working Across the Aisle" Biden would have peeled off Murkowski or Collins against McConnells will (assuming he wanted to pass the 15 dollar minimum wage which he almost certainly didnt). They didnt repeal the ACA because they're cowards and didnt want to repeal it anyways because they subscribe to the same strategy Democrats do, say you'll do something, campaign on it, when it comes time to do it don't do it because then you can't campaign on it. The difference is thats on brand for Republicans since they want dysfunctional government, but Democrats purport to actually want a government that works, y'know, 'til they have power and then suddenly government doesn't work so good any more.

How are the voters not to blame when they keep voting for these people who you say don't represent their interests.
If Manchins constituents don't like what he is doing why does he keep beating more progressives candidates in the primary?
How the F* is it not their fault when they keep voting for him over other 'better' options?


And most people dont vote because neither party represents them and both parties dominate elections with

MONEY

When you can flood people with ads and get all of the attention with infinite DNC money you have a COLOSSAL advantage against people who have none of the infrastructure, none of the money, none of the hard core institutional advantages that Republicans and Democrats can afford their most mediocre of candidates. You hear about Democrats suing to get the Green party removed from the ballot? Thats the kind of anti-democratic bullshit that the two parties in this country do to prevent people from having viable alternatives.

Voters have a broken shitty fucking system to work with and people always go "you cant go against Manchin! Hes the only way in West Virginia!" that narrative poisons this country and constructs this false world where the only way anyone has ever won and can ever win is by being as conservative and inoffensive as possible. In spite of the fact that historically West Virginia is fucking BLUE. It is a BLUE STATE and the narrative has somehow become its an impossibly red state that only Joe Manchin can win despite the last half century of Democratic dominance in the state.

Thats not because voters started to decide that Republicans are such great candidates its because Democrats sunk down to the Republican level with Clinton and decided that the working class was worth snubbing. When you have Blue Republicans and Red Fascists who the fuck do you vote for? Why bother? Youre going to come home from a long day working two jobs to your wife and three kids who require your attention and do research on indie candidates? No, you're going to take your TV break, try and relax, see ads and either not vote because both parties are shit or vote for whichever party you've just decided is your party. And since people don't have it in them to be hyper politically active we get a situation like this, where people think the government is so incompetent and the system is so against them that Red Fascists start to thrive because if the government isnt going to help people then people feel that at least they can go tell that government to go fuck itself by sending mean spirited clowns to fuck with them.

https://www.thoughtco.com/do-congressmen-ever-lose-re-election-3367511

Where incumbency success rates in this country are 90+%. Unseating Joe Manchin or any famous incumbent isnt a battle of ideas, its a battle of money and fame, because the person who votes for Joe Manchin is just going to keep voting for him because his name is familiar on the ballot and they dont have the time or energy to pursue information on a slew of candidates during a primary.

Blaming voters is asinine and utterly and COMPLETELY useless. Americans didn't suddenly get lazy and bored with caring about politics, its because politicians and the state of the US has become so mediocre and unrepresentative of them that they see no point. Its like blaming the wife who gets beat on a weekly basis for not leaving, "you could just leave the house when hes at work, why are you subjecting yourself to being beaten?" Why would you believe change can happen when the commonly accepted theory for electoralism is fucking Game Theory bullshit that dictates only two parties can matter and neither of the two parties that matter have any real interest in helping you?

We would be a fuck sight better off if people could get over their game theory shit and stop doing this lesser evil bullshit because it creates this diseased narratives about how elections can operate. People may be more encouraged to vote if they felt the narrative was alternative options were worth considering and if money didn't completely dominate campaigning.

For some numbers about things you might need to run your own campaign without Democrat or Republican money,

+ Show Spoiler +
Voter rolls in order to know who votes in primaries in order to contact them about your campaign, ~1 cent per voter record, so depending on the density of the area youre running in you could pay up to 5,000 dollars. The calculator I used pretending I was going to request some Louisiana voter rolls came to 1,200 dollars.

Want YouTube ads? That'll be about 10 to 30 cents per view, so as few as 10,000 views will cost you another thousand dollars (and given how often I've seen politician's crappy YouTube ads its likely tens of thousands of dollars to feasibly do this and reach any real number of people)

Want to put up yard signs? Roughly 500 of those would run you about 1,000 dollars with minimalist requirements, one sided, mono or duo tone, etc.

All of this shit costs a ton of money for any non-rich person who doesn't have some sort of institutional funding, and its a tremendous barrier that makes operating outside of the parties extremely difficult. This is only even a few things off the top of my head, running campaigns is expensive, thousands and thousands of dollars, not to mention that if you have a job? Thats either quitting your job, neglecting whatever home life you have or not campaigning which is another hurdle that incumbent politicians dont worry about because as a politician campaigning is considered part of their job.

"Just vote for the right people!" "Just run your own campaign!" isn't nearly as easy as it sounds in this country because this country is built to prevent that from happening.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8541 Posts
March 07 2021 12:13 GMT
#62196
Where incumbency success rates in this country are 90+%. Unseating Joe Manchin or any famous incumbent isnt a battle of ideas, its a battle of money and fame, because the person who votes for Joe Manchin is just going to keep voting for him because his name is familiar on the ballot and they dont have the time or energy to pursue information on a slew of candidates during a primary.

Blaming voters is asinine and utterly and COMPLETELY useless. Americans didn't suddenly get lazy and bored with caring about politics, its because politicians and the state of the US has become so mediocre and unrepresentative of them that they see no point. Its like blaming the wife who gets beat on a weekly basis for not leaving, "you could just leave the house when hes at work, why are you subjecting yourself to being beaten?" Why would you believe change can happen when the commonly accepted theory for electoralism is fucking Game Theory bullshit that dictates only two parties can matter and neither of the two parties that matter have any real interest in helping you?


yeah that's fucked up. the most effective and heinous action in recent memory was Redmap by the GOP. that totally fucks with the dynamic of lowest approval rating of Congress during 2010-20? ( run by GOP)? no problem as redistricting and voter suppression efforts help achieve a still ridiculously high reelection rate.

and btw. what's actually admirable is how GOP politicians sell their bullshit. the conviction and the "don't like it? FU America hater" attitude. they will tell you Corporations are people, money given to rich people will trickle down. Dr Seuss is cancelled by a woke mob. reforming the police is not necessary because "defunding the police" is a once in a lifetime stupid slogan.

Rs claim they only lost because the election was stolen by nefarious forces and fraud. and they stick with it. they know it is but to hell with anybody who says otherwise. while Dems are infighting, Rs are already on the battlefield preparing it in their favor.

State lawmakers are considering more than 100 laws that would make it harder to vote, according to an analysis conducted by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.

the Georgia one already passed btw.

so keep bitching about Dems sure, they are pussies and deserve it. but be aware who actually is out to fuck you out of your vote(if you are minority/ moving in lower social strata). as the Dem HR1 bill meant to "counteract" it by federal measures is going NOWHERE. Rs say federal standards, anti corruption measures etc. are bad. in light of this, pick your poison. I am certainly not envying your choices lol
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-07 15:10:42
March 07 2021 15:08 GMT
#62197
--- Nuked ---
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
March 07 2021 15:08 GMT
#62198
As a side note, it's pretty disingenuous to boil down Republicans' failure to repeal the ACA on McCain not voting for it since he had cancer and had no repercussions for the way he voted.

There were several Republicans that voted against the repeal, something like 6 or 7. This idea that Republicans are somehow so much better at whipping votes is a lie people tell to justify their anger at the Democratic party.

Sure, the party is failing us, but it isn't doing so in any unique way. The party is struggling in the political system that we have just like other political causes are.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
March 07 2021 16:19 GMT
#62199
On March 07 2021 06:18 mierin wrote:
My, how the goalposts move.

When Trump + republicans had presidency and senate: Those Republicans are in charge, we can't implement any change!

When Dems have the presidency + a split senate which the VP can overturn: (write a one page essay about political nuance and why even though Democrats are technically in charge, no changes can be implemented).

I've been done with this for a long time, and I definitely saw it coming. I'm not even convinced the majority of Democrats even want the $15 minimum wage-- I would happily vote for a 200% tax increase to help the poor just to make myself look good because I know it'd never pass. "Vote blue no matter who", possibly the cult-iest saying I've ever heard, sure is working wonders.

I wish for once I could vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone else.

The stimulus package probably just wouldn’t have even happened if Democrats didn’t take the senate. This vote was important because it’s forcing senators to actually take a position and be accountable. I wish the minimum wage got bumped up relative to inflation but I don’t think it’s reasonable to pretend nothing has gotten done just because a lot of people really wanted 15 min wage.

People have already forgotten what it was like for Trump to be president. 8 Democrats voting against the min wage is not equivalent to the Republican Party. And It’s been less than 2 months. It’s totally wild seeing how much people expected in the first 2 months.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-03-07 16:30:28
March 07 2021 16:27 GMT
#62200
--- Nuked ---
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