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On December 10 2011 14:45 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 14:39 snIJIJzer wrote:On December 10 2011 14:27 mastergriggy wrote:On December 10 2011 14:20 snIJIJzer wrote:On December 10 2011 14:14 mastergriggy wrote:On December 10 2011 14:00 Subztance wrote:On December 10 2011 12:29 Mafs wrote:On December 10 2011 12:19 Probe1 wrote:
I grew up staunchly against capital punishment but the older I get the more I realize how much it's needed. You can deter shoplifters by sending them to jail for the weekend. Murderers can fear capital punishment and life in prison.
But when it comes to this, there needs to be less fanfare and discussion. Just a summary execution. There should be a point where we all agree to just skip formality, wasting no more than 3 minutes and 5 bullets on these fucks. Who actually wants to see any of them remorseful or rehabilitated. Fuck that.
Our culture has gotten so bloated with wet foot dry foot that it's acceptable to bomb the living shit out a wedding on accident but not vivisect 5 sick bastards that mutilated and murdered an random innocent couple. Agreed. The purpose of prison is to rehabilitate, and if they cannot be rehabilitated, they are sucking tax payer money from the budget, and should just be killed because they are such a huge minus on society. The cost our country spends on each death penalty prisoner is greater than it costs to hold a man in prison for life. The purpose of prison is not exclusively to rehabilitate, or else there would be no life sentences. Sometimes the purpose is just to punish criminals and educate the general community that committing crimes does not pay. That being said, while I believe that our death penalty system is severely flawed, it is hard not to feel that it is sometimes necessary for people who commit truly heinous crimes. However, you must remember that in our nation, innocence is assumed until guilt is proven. In some cases it is easy to say "why don't we just kill them and get it over with", but think about how this might affect less clear-cut cases... a quick execution might mean an innocent man dies before other evidence is found that might exonerate them (over 100 exonerations of death penalty inmates have occurred in the last few decades, and this number is quickly increasing with the improvement of technology like DNA matching.) A bullet in the head for each of them equals five bullets. You could probably get that for about 6 bucks at walmart. Also, I think it's clear that there is proof. The fact that the judge was on drugs just means they have to do a retrial, not that any of the evidence against them has changed. So if it's up to you the US would, if there is enough evidence, execute it's citizens with a bullet through the head? edit: nvm i guess you are. Yep a person found guilty of murdering and raping two people would be executed if there was enough evidence and a conviction with an applicable death penalty. It's called capital punishment, and yes we do it. On December 10 2011 14:20 phosphorylation wrote:
I'm against the death penalty, not because i think it's inhumane, but simply because i think that's a waste, not to mention, bit unquantifiable (10 years in prison vs 20 years can be compared but death? hard to quantify; could mean different things to different people).
Instead, I suggest that these really bad criminals, beyond rehabilitation, should be sent to concentration camps to do hard labor for rest of their lives. This serves a few purposes; this is probably worse than death penalty for most people (maybe criminals will actually fear the criminal system now) and it is also malleable depending on the weight of their crimes (length of sentence and severity of labor). They will also be doing something is productive to society (make them mine or fertilize a desert or something like that), so that they at least make up partially for the harm they did to society. It also would lessen the strain on tax payer's money. I also think any profit they make should be sent to the victim and victim's families. To an extent, I agree with this. I think isolation from the rest of humanity for the rest of their life (ie solitary confinement) would be much worse than a death penalty. If you've ever seen that episode of law and order (it's in season 12) where they have that guy explain what solitary confinement is like, I think it much better suits it. Or throw them in a prison cell full of other rapists and let at it. Have you even read the last pages? I was arguing capital punishment in general is more expensive to the tax payer then a life sentence. The fact that in this case there might be clear evidence doesnt change that. Then you point out the price of bullets at walmart; that's pretty absurd and i was reacting on that as a method of execution. Also, law and order? Lulz. I was using an example law and order episode that used a real life testimony of solitary confinement? And yes I've read the last few pages, maybe you're missing my point. If instead of setting up everything involved in the cost of a lethal inject, we just use one bullet, it would be a lot cheaper. Is that to hard for you to understand or do you purposely ridicule others posts which you disagree with because you don't understand? Ok now you stated it clearly, so yes i do understand. You would really be ok if the US was executing convicted criminals with a bullet in the head. To me that's absurd but each his own opinion. I guess the end result is the same so in that sense you are right. But the method of excecution is not the factor that makes capital punishment more expensive. As someone pointed out before it's the higher costs of trials to ensure no innocent person is put to death. (One of the main reasons i PERSONALLY am against it. No matter how high requirements for evidence are, in time, an unfortunate individual will be wrongfully executed.)
And ok, i didn't know law and order used real life testimonies. My bad.
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On December 10 2011 15:06 snIJIJzer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 14:45 mastergriggy wrote:On December 10 2011 14:39 snIJIJzer wrote:On December 10 2011 14:27 mastergriggy wrote:On December 10 2011 14:20 snIJIJzer wrote:On December 10 2011 14:14 mastergriggy wrote:On December 10 2011 14:00 Subztance wrote:On December 10 2011 12:29 Mafs wrote:On December 10 2011 12:19 Probe1 wrote:
I grew up staunchly against capital punishment but the older I get the more I realize how much it's needed. You can deter shoplifters by sending them to jail for the weekend. Murderers can fear capital punishment and life in prison.
But when it comes to this, there needs to be less fanfare and discussion. Just a summary execution. There should be a point where we all agree to just skip formality, wasting no more than 3 minutes and 5 bullets on these fucks. Who actually wants to see any of them remorseful or rehabilitated. Fuck that.
Our culture has gotten so bloated with wet foot dry foot that it's acceptable to bomb the living shit out a wedding on accident but not vivisect 5 sick bastards that mutilated and murdered an random innocent couple. Agreed. The purpose of prison is to rehabilitate, and if they cannot be rehabilitated, they are sucking tax payer money from the budget, and should just be killed because they are such a huge minus on society. The cost our country spends on each death penalty prisoner is greater than it costs to hold a man in prison for life. The purpose of prison is not exclusively to rehabilitate, or else there would be no life sentences. Sometimes the purpose is just to punish criminals and educate the general community that committing crimes does not pay. That being said, while I believe that our death penalty system is severely flawed, it is hard not to feel that it is sometimes necessary for people who commit truly heinous crimes. However, you must remember that in our nation, innocence is assumed until guilt is proven. In some cases it is easy to say "why don't we just kill them and get it over with", but think about how this might affect less clear-cut cases... a quick execution might mean an innocent man dies before other evidence is found that might exonerate them (over 100 exonerations of death penalty inmates have occurred in the last few decades, and this number is quickly increasing with the improvement of technology like DNA matching.) A bullet in the head for each of them equals five bullets. You could probably get that for about 6 bucks at walmart. Also, I think it's clear that there is proof. The fact that the judge was on drugs just means they have to do a retrial, not that any of the evidence against them has changed. So if it's up to you the US would, if there is enough evidence, execute it's citizens with a bullet through the head? edit: nvm i guess you are. Yep a person found guilty of murdering and raping two people would be executed if there was enough evidence and a conviction with an applicable death penalty. It's called capital punishment, and yes we do it. On December 10 2011 14:20 phosphorylation wrote:
I'm against the death penalty, not because i think it's inhumane, but simply because i think that's a waste, not to mention, bit unquantifiable (10 years in prison vs 20 years can be compared but death? hard to quantify; could mean different things to different people).
Instead, I suggest that these really bad criminals, beyond rehabilitation, should be sent to concentration camps to do hard labor for rest of their lives. This serves a few purposes; this is probably worse than death penalty for most people (maybe criminals will actually fear the criminal system now) and it is also malleable depending on the weight of their crimes (length of sentence and severity of labor). They will also be doing something is productive to society (make them mine or fertilize a desert or something like that), so that they at least make up partially for the harm they did to society. It also would lessen the strain on tax payer's money. I also think any profit they make should be sent to the victim and victim's families. To an extent, I agree with this. I think isolation from the rest of humanity for the rest of their life (ie solitary confinement) would be much worse than a death penalty. If you've ever seen that episode of law and order (it's in season 12) where they have that guy explain what solitary confinement is like, I think it much better suits it. Or throw them in a prison cell full of other rapists and let at it. Have you even read the last pages? I was arguing capital punishment in general is more expensive to the tax payer then a life sentence. The fact that in this case there might be clear evidence doesnt change that. Then you point out the price of bullets at walmart; that's pretty absurd and i was reacting on that as a method of execution. Also, law and order? Lulz. I was using an example law and order episode that used a real life testimony of solitary confinement? And yes I've read the last few pages, maybe you're missing my point. If instead of setting up everything involved in the cost of a lethal inject, we just use one bullet, it would be a lot cheaper. Is that to hard for you to understand or do you purposely ridicule others posts which you disagree with because you don't understand? Ok now you stated it clearly, so yes i do understand. You would really be ok if the US was executing convicted criminals with a bullet in the head. To me that's absurd but each has it's opinion. I guess the end result is the same so in that sense you are right. But the method of excecution is not the factor that makes capital punishment more expensive. As someone pointed out before it's the higher costs of trials to ensure no innocent person is put to death. (One of the main reasons i PERSONALLY am against it. No matter how high requirements for evidence are, in time, an unfortunate individual will be wrongfully executed.) And ok, i didn't know law and order used real life testimonies. My bad.
I tend to be under the persuasion that the how isn't important since it's all death in the end. Something about being humane to murders I guess.
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On December 10 2011 07:49 lolmlg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 06:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On December 10 2011 05:35 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Stories like these make me support the death penalty.
We need artificial genetic selection, dammit!
...lol go texas! I would support execution in this case, but no... we don't need to follow the eugenicism of 19th century Britain or 20th century Germany on top of that. No thanks. The United States had a prominent eugenics program. You should really think twice before trying to be clever with comments like these.
I take it this is some dark secret I haven't heard of?
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On December 10 2011 17:26 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 07:49 lolmlg wrote:On December 10 2011 06:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On December 10 2011 05:35 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Stories like these make me support the death penalty.
We need artificial genetic selection, dammit!
...lol go texas! I would support execution in this case, but no... we don't need to follow the eugenicism of 19th century Britain or 20th century Germany on top of that. No thanks. The United States had a prominent eugenics program. You should really think twice before trying to be clever with comments like these. I take it this is some dark secret I haven't heard of?
This was before World War 2: there were no such things as secret laws back then. It was all done openly.
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On December 10 2011 17:26 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 07:49 lolmlg wrote:On December 10 2011 06:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On December 10 2011 05:35 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Stories like these make me support the death penalty.
We need artificial genetic selection, dammit!
...lol go texas! I would support execution in this case, but no... we don't need to follow the eugenicism of 19th century Britain or 20th century Germany on top of that. No thanks. The United States had a prominent eugenics program. You should really think twice before trying to be clever with comments like these. I take it this is some dark secret I haven't heard of?
Its not even really secret, people just dont really talk about it much
On topic though, i wonder why people are so intrigued by topics like these. For me personally its that i see yet another thing to be angry at, and that helps me take my mind of shit that happens in my own life to make me angry!
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On December 10 2011 05:39 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:25 Phisk wrote:On December 10 2011 05:13 Days wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. Ugh seriously? Yeah yeah, enough with "an eye for an eye makes everyone blind" bull shit. Let's see if you felt the same way after your very own father and mother we're the victims in this case, would you still be screaming out for peace to the ones who committed the crime? What kind of kinder garden argument is that? There is no room for bias in the justice system, if we treated every crime as if we were the victims, judging from a place of emotion rather than logic, society would fall apart. Befree's argument that we cant punish people for their "genetics" (as if there was a "criminal" gene...) or upbringing is obviously idiotic though, because then nobody would be responsible for their actions. There is such a thing as free will and every action that anyone has a ever made has a consequence and we are all responsible for what we do.Even the most horrible upbringing that somebody has been through doesn't give you a free pass to commit horrible actions. Actually, there's a big philosophical debate about that subject. Is is actually true that most pepole have free will? Or are most pepole simply slaves to their emotions and education.
Yes, it's entirely true if you ignore all the philosophical bullshit. Based on neurological evidence it's quite apparent that we have "free will", or the ability to act according to our own choices without constraints. These decisions might be influenced by our environments, but there is no doubt that all our actions elicited begin at neocortical/prefrontal regions.
If you generate the intentional thought to kill someone, who cares about your upbringing or any of that. Focus on the fact that you generated an intentional action that resulted in someone's death. It doesn't matter if your actions were influenced by your upbringing, YOU were still responsible for the action (hint, using "you" here in the general sense). The only way it's remotely arguable that one is not responsible for their actions in a murder case is when it is found that in fact that action was unintentional, such as in manslaughter cases -- accidents do occur, but when there is no accident, there is intent.
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On December 10 2011 18:28 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:39 RageBot wrote:On December 10 2011 05:25 Phisk wrote:On December 10 2011 05:13 Days wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. Ugh seriously? Yeah yeah, enough with "an eye for an eye makes everyone blind" bull shit. Let's see if you felt the same way after your very own father and mother we're the victims in this case, would you still be screaming out for peace to the ones who committed the crime? What kind of kinder garden argument is that? There is no room for bias in the justice system, if we treated every crime as if we were the victims, judging from a place of emotion rather than logic, society would fall apart. Befree's argument that we cant punish people for their "genetics" (as if there was a "criminal" gene...) or upbringing is obviously idiotic though, because then nobody would be responsible for their actions. There is such a thing as free will and every action that anyone has a ever made has a consequence and we are all responsible for what we do.Even the most horrible upbringing that somebody has been through doesn't give you a free pass to commit horrible actions. Actually, there's a big philosophical debate about that subject. Is is actually true that most pepole have free will? Or are most pepole simply slaves to their emotions and education. Yes, it's entirely true if you ignore all the philosophical bullshit. Based on neurological evidence it's quite apparent that we have "free will", or the ability to act according to our own choices without constraints. These decisions might be influenced by our environments, but there is no doubt that all our actions elicited begin at neocortical/prefrontal regions.
I thought the neurological evidence rather suggested that most people begin a course of action before being consciously aware of any decisionmaking on their own part?
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On December 10 2011 18:37 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 18:28 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 05:39 RageBot wrote:On December 10 2011 05:25 Phisk wrote:On December 10 2011 05:13 Days wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. Ugh seriously? Yeah yeah, enough with "an eye for an eye makes everyone blind" bull shit. Let's see if you felt the same way after your very own father and mother we're the victims in this case, would you still be screaming out for peace to the ones who committed the crime? What kind of kinder garden argument is that? There is no room for bias in the justice system, if we treated every crime as if we were the victims, judging from a place of emotion rather than logic, society would fall apart. Befree's argument that we cant punish people for their "genetics" (as if there was a "criminal" gene...) or upbringing is obviously idiotic though, because then nobody would be responsible for their actions. There is such a thing as free will and every action that anyone has a ever made has a consequence and we are all responsible for what we do.Even the most horrible upbringing that somebody has been through doesn't give you a free pass to commit horrible actions. Actually, there's a big philosophical debate about that subject. Is is actually true that most pepole have free will? Or are most pepole simply slaves to their emotions and education. Yes, it's entirely true if you ignore all the philosophical bullshit. Based on neurological evidence it's quite apparent that we have "free will", or the ability to act according to our own choices without constraints. These decisions might be influenced by our environments, but there is no doubt that all our actions elicited begin at neocortical/prefrontal regions. I thought the neurological evidence rather suggested that most people begin a course of action before being consciously aware of any decisionmaking on their own part?
There are electrical activities that are initiated before you act, but that actually proves it's you that is in control of your actions. Your brain. Not someone else's.
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It doesn't take philosophy or neuroscience to prove that free will doesn't make sense. All it takes is common sense. Everything in the entire universe is necessarily either determined or arbitrary. The suggestion of a third possibility is nonsense, metaphysical voodoo, philosophical astrology.
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the crux of any argument for or against free will lies in defining what "free will" means. before you have a clear definition of free will you really cannot say whether or not free will exists. does such a concept entail solely that we are allowed to act out our desires free of limiting external influence or does it go further and suggest that we arrive at our conclusions without any external influence at all? look up determinism, compatibilism, and incommpatibilism for a start.
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This is the most despicable heinous and barbaric act I've ever heard of. The ruling was overturned and they are facing a new trial? Fucking send them all to death row IMO.... the world is better off without sick people like this.
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On December 10 2011 12:13 ryanAnger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 10:02 Cloud9157 wrote:On December 10 2011 09:46 Selth wrote:
I feel wrong having not been fully sickened by this story... That being said, a lot of good points brought up in this bump and they've enlightened me a bit about this world we live in. I honestly don't know where I stand in terms of punishing them at this point with the current system in place. Hey, when you've heard enough stories like this on senseless violence towards another human being, you tend to become nonreactive towards them. Always been against the DP and I will stand by my opinion on it. I just don't see how this line of thought is even possible given the horror of the crime involved. I seriously doubt these people could be rehabilitated, and even if they could, they don't deserve the chance. And putting them in prison for life is still allowing them to live. Regardless of what conditions they might be in, life is still better than death in almost any scenario (there are some obvious exceptions, but prison is not one of them.) Kill them, rid the world of scum, and save millions of taxpayers dollars.
I fully agree with your first sentence.
In my life, I never believed in it. But then some occurrences like this I feel rage and hatred towards them, and want them removed from the planet immediately.
Maybe this will sound corny, but I believe in a chance of redemption. Not necessarily on a religious scale, but just through contemplation. I would like to think they can make peace with themselves while they sit in prison for the rest of their lives. Not just claiming they have, but having legitimately thought about why the did it, what happened as a result, and the poor people that no longer live because of their actions.
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I think all these people who committed these crimes should have to undergo the same horrendous torture they inflicted on these people and then be left to rot in jail. This is absolutely disgusting.
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This fucking world is fucking mad... :'(
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Wow.. pretty sickening indeed. There shouldn't be discussion about racism imo; that's not the point...
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I shouldn't have read this. I feel sick 
This was just horrible. What the hell is wrong with people. And how did this turn into a race debate?
Some fucked up people did something I couldn't imagine in my worst nightmare and people are discussing their skin color? Are you serious? Is that what comes to mind?
I am more curious about how a human being is even capable of doing something like this fucked up. Who gives 2 cents about their skin color, hair color or eye color?!
RIP Channon and Christopher
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On December 11 2011 08:59 papaz wrote:I shouldn't have read this. I feel sick This was just horrible. What the hell is wrong with people. And how did this turn into a race debate? Some fucked up people did something I couldn't imagine in my worst nightmare and people are discussing their skin color? Are you serious? Is that what comes to mind? I am more curious about how a human being is even capable of doing something like this fucked up. Who gives 2 cents about their skin color, hair color or eye color?! RIP Channon and Christopher
Well put. This despicable act remains despicable regardless of who commits it.
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I have read this, now Im pissed like hell. The killers could be blind deaf albino chinease people with read hair on a wheelchairs, it does not matter. I have always been agains death penalty, but.. well that kind of fucked up shis just makes u think, what if..
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This makes me wish there was a real-life Dexter out there. Fucks like them deserve to be tortured forever.
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I don't know.. If a group of people attacks, mutilates and rapes another group of people, where the individuals of each group were exclusively of a different race, then there is always the possibility that the motive was racial.
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EPT
