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On June 22 2018 04:52 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Also, apparently Netherlands said that they were not too keen on that "eurozone budget" announced Tuesday. King Macron and Queen Merkel forgot that there are other people to convince in Europe... Furthermore, Eastern countries are not happy on the immigration front: Central European states to boycott Brussels migration meeting
Leaders of the four central European Visegrad states announced Thursday they would not attend an informal meeting organised by EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss migration policy.
Speaking after a meeting of the leaders of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic in Budapest, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described Sunday's meeting as "unacceptable", adding: "We are not going to attend, they want to re-heat a proposal that we've already rejected."
His Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban said that the meeting was "against the normal customs of the EU" and that the appropriate forum was the EU leaders' summit scheduled for next week.
The four were joined at the summit by Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, who has added his voice to calls for a tougher migration policy.
(...) https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/central-european-states-boycott-brussels-migration-meeting-doc-16c9dh1Can't wait to see the European Disunion in action next week. Netherlands and their hanseatic friends or V4+Austria are too small to block anything, so it seems like the disunity won't be too glaring during the summit. Unless Italy decides to put on a show, though that would be more about just Italy and less about the union as a whole. The balance of power in the EU is going to get even worse once the UK leaves, so if someone isn't content with following the Franco-German leadership, they better start preparing their own exit now.
They might not like the leadership, but I imagine they sure like the money. And sure they are aware of the financial consequences of leaving the EU.
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On June 22 2018 04:47 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Also, apparently Netherlands said that they were not too keen on that "eurozone budget" announced Tuesday. King Macron and Queen Merkel forgot that there are other people to convince in Europe... Furthermore, Eastern countries are not happy on the immigration front: Central European states to boycott Brussels migration meeting
Leaders of the four central European Visegrad states announced Thursday they would not attend an informal meeting organised by EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss migration policy.
Speaking after a meeting of the leaders of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic in Budapest, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described Sunday's meeting as "unacceptable", adding: "We are not going to attend, they want to re-heat a proposal that we've already rejected."
His Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban said that the meeting was "against the normal customs of the EU" and that the appropriate forum was the EU leaders' summit scheduled for next week.
The four were joined at the summit by Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, who has added his voice to calls for a tougher migration policy.
(...) https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/central-european-states-boycott-brussels-migration-meeting-doc-16c9dh1Can't wait to see the European Disunion in action next week. I'm so glad the Visegrád Group exists to challenge western leaders who are for open borders. Summer 2015 was a horrible time that shouldn't be repeated. I regret my country doesn't have the balls to join them. Merkel's influence is too strong.
Literally no "Western leader" is for open borders lol
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On June 22 2018 05:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 04:47 sc-darkness wrote:On June 22 2018 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Also, apparently Netherlands said that they were not too keen on that "eurozone budget" announced Tuesday. King Macron and Queen Merkel forgot that there are other people to convince in Europe... Furthermore, Eastern countries are not happy on the immigration front: Central European states to boycott Brussels migration meeting
Leaders of the four central European Visegrad states announced Thursday they would not attend an informal meeting organised by EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss migration policy.
Speaking after a meeting of the leaders of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic in Budapest, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described Sunday's meeting as "unacceptable", adding: "We are not going to attend, they want to re-heat a proposal that we've already rejected."
His Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban said that the meeting was "against the normal customs of the EU" and that the appropriate forum was the EU leaders' summit scheduled for next week.
The four were joined at the summit by Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, who has added his voice to calls for a tougher migration policy.
(...) https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/central-european-states-boycott-brussels-migration-meeting-doc-16c9dh1Can't wait to see the European Disunion in action next week. I'm so glad the Visegrád Group exists to challenge western leaders who are for open borders. Summer 2015 was a horrible time that shouldn't be repeated. I regret my country doesn't have the balls to join them. Merkel's influence is too strong. Literally no "Western leader" is for open borders lol
Yeah? Like Merkel saying welcome to refugees, then Germany gets 1 million refugees?
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She's not going to repeat that mistake.
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On June 22 2018 05:45 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 05:45 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2018 04:47 sc-darkness wrote:On June 22 2018 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Also, apparently Netherlands said that they were not too keen on that "eurozone budget" announced Tuesday. King Macron and Queen Merkel forgot that there are other people to convince in Europe... Furthermore, Eastern countries are not happy on the immigration front: Central European states to boycott Brussels migration meeting
Leaders of the four central European Visegrad states announced Thursday they would not attend an informal meeting organised by EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss migration policy.
Speaking after a meeting of the leaders of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic in Budapest, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described Sunday's meeting as "unacceptable", adding: "We are not going to attend, they want to re-heat a proposal that we've already rejected."
His Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban said that the meeting was "against the normal customs of the EU" and that the appropriate forum was the EU leaders' summit scheduled for next week.
The four were joined at the summit by Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, who has added his voice to calls for a tougher migration policy.
(...) https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/central-european-states-boycott-brussels-migration-meeting-doc-16c9dh1Can't wait to see the European Disunion in action next week. I'm so glad the Visegrád Group exists to challenge western leaders who are for open borders. Summer 2015 was a horrible time that shouldn't be repeated. I regret my country doesn't have the balls to join them. Merkel's influence is too strong. Literally no "Western leader" is for open borders lol Yeah? Like Merkel saying welcome to refugees, then Germany gets 1 million refugees?
In case you weren't aware, Germany's policy has been increasingly restrictive since then. And Merkel herself said she would never do that again.
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On June 22 2018 05:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 05:45 sc-darkness wrote:On June 22 2018 05:45 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2018 04:47 sc-darkness wrote:On June 22 2018 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Also, apparently Netherlands said that they were not too keen on that "eurozone budget" announced Tuesday. King Macron and Queen Merkel forgot that there are other people to convince in Europe... Furthermore, Eastern countries are not happy on the immigration front: Central European states to boycott Brussels migration meeting
Leaders of the four central European Visegrad states announced Thursday they would not attend an informal meeting organised by EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss migration policy.
Speaking after a meeting of the leaders of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic in Budapest, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described Sunday's meeting as "unacceptable", adding: "We are not going to attend, they want to re-heat a proposal that we've already rejected."
His Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban said that the meeting was "against the normal customs of the EU" and that the appropriate forum was the EU leaders' summit scheduled for next week.
The four were joined at the summit by Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, who has added his voice to calls for a tougher migration policy.
(...) https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/central-european-states-boycott-brussels-migration-meeting-doc-16c9dh1Can't wait to see the European Disunion in action next week. I'm so glad the Visegrád Group exists to challenge western leaders who are for open borders. Summer 2015 was a horrible time that shouldn't be repeated. I regret my country doesn't have the balls to join them. Merkel's influence is too strong. Literally no "Western leader" is for open borders lol Yeah? Like Merkel saying welcome to refugees, then Germany gets 1 million refugees? In case you weren't aware, Germany's policy has been increasingly restrictive since then. And Merkel herself said she would never do that again.
Good, that's what I want as well. We probably have some agreement for once.
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Also, accepting refugees is not the same as "open borders". Refugees are humans who flee from terror and oppression. Now, i am not for simply accepting anyone who claims to be a refugee, no questions asked. And i am also for trying to prevent the situation from occuring by trying to make the situations they have to flee from less shitty.
But if someone is a legitimate refugee fleeing from horrible circumstances, they need help, and helping them is a question of basic humanity.
Of course, right-wing people tend to conflate all migration with refugees, because that makes it easier to refuse the refugees if you don't have to think of them as people fleeing from torture and murder.
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On June 22 2018 05:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 05:45 sc-darkness wrote:On June 22 2018 05:45 TheDwf wrote:On June 22 2018 04:47 sc-darkness wrote:On June 22 2018 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Also, apparently Netherlands said that they were not too keen on that "eurozone budget" announced Tuesday. King Macron and Queen Merkel forgot that there are other people to convince in Europe... Furthermore, Eastern countries are not happy on the immigration front: Central European states to boycott Brussels migration meeting
Leaders of the four central European Visegrad states announced Thursday they would not attend an informal meeting organised by EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss migration policy.
Speaking after a meeting of the leaders of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic in Budapest, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described Sunday's meeting as "unacceptable", adding: "We are not going to attend, they want to re-heat a proposal that we've already rejected."
His Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban said that the meeting was "against the normal customs of the EU" and that the appropriate forum was the EU leaders' summit scheduled for next week.
The four were joined at the summit by Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, who has added his voice to calls for a tougher migration policy.
(...) https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/central-european-states-boycott-brussels-migration-meeting-doc-16c9dh1Can't wait to see the European Disunion in action next week. I'm so glad the Visegrád Group exists to challenge western leaders who are for open borders. Summer 2015 was a horrible time that shouldn't be repeated. I regret my country doesn't have the balls to join them. Merkel's influence is too strong. Literally no "Western leader" is for open borders lol Yeah? Like Merkel saying welcome to refugees, then Germany gets 1 million refugees? In case you weren't aware, Germany's policy has been increasingly restrictive since then. And Merkel herself said she would never do that again.
Basically, seeing the largely negative reaction she took a 180 on the earlier “open the floodgates” approach of 2015. Well, at least you can’t say it isn’t a pragmatic approach.
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The alleged difference between V4 and Germany as a result of the refugee crisis is somewhat overhyped. If you take the long term look of 20-30 years then the Visegrad countries have a pretty strong partner in Merkel, who like much of Eastern Europe is rather reluctant when it comes to delegating powers to Brussels.
A France driven EU with a Social Democrat in Germany would probably steamroll every other single country in the Union so maybe people shouldn't be quite as hysteric about Merkel and make some room in their mind about topics that happen to not be immigration.
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I still have to find the huge impact of Merkels immigration policy on german society. I mean, sure, there are the horror stories of immigrants cheating the welfare system or being criminals but largely, it turns out Germany hasn't really noticed. And according to wikipedia, the rest of Europe couldnt notice because they didn't take in significant numbers anyway.
en.wikipedia.org
So, what are you guys actually so afraid of? The topic of border control is, in my opinion, a red(brown) populist herring. Not liking France and Germany dictating the future of Europe is another thing, i can understand that. I wouldn't want to form a real eu-government with the current polish or hungarian government as well. And the EU certainly is a good way of making sure there is a market for german products. But please don't use something as stupid as the border status or refugee policy to score points with the fear- and hateful.
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Thats Your personal opinion. If a country doesnt want someone inside its border is perfectly legit for it to deny entry. Thats this thing called sovereignty, such country doesnt need to explain itself to Merkel or Macron or Junker. Funnily enough i work with a lot of Germans (mainly from Baden-Wurtemberg) and most of them subscribe themselves to official Merkel line when in presence of other Germans. But when there are no other Germans around they change their opinion 100 degree and openly say how furious they are at their government. Political corectness at its finest. They are afraid to publicly express their views. You are lucky Afd its just plain crazy, if You (Germany) had someone as political savy as Orban or Kaczyński they would be already in power.
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Of course it's my personal opinion and of course countries have the right to their souvereignty. That doesn't change one bit what i said though. The only countries that could reasonably claim that they have a problem with the number of refugees are hungary, Greece, Sweden and Germany. Poland has taken in, according to mwikipedia, some 6k people. Trying to argue now that the influx of brown people into Poland has to stop is making a problem out of something that does not exist. It's a rightwing meme and nothing more. The same as our rightwings wanted stronger borders against Poland to keep all the car thieves out.
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On June 22 2018 08:07 Nyxisto wrote:
A France driven EU with a Social Democrat in Germany would probably steamroll every other single country in the Union so maybe people shouldn't be quite as hysteric about Merkel and make some room in their mind about topics that happen to not be immigration.
What do you mean?
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What i am trying to say is that its not up to You to say what is enough and what isnt. Polish people has elected a governemnt for which 6k is too much already. Not to mention that we have 1mln + migrants from Ukraine. This is a very important thing for polish voter and actually one thing over which i think general public would support exiting EU if needed. I mean if faced with a choice whether to accept large quantity of migrants or exit EU the general public would rather exit EU.
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Yes, your general public is allowed to do so. Every country is allowed to make own decisions as far as it does not violate international law or agreements. If you feel the need to leave the EU over it then you should leave the EU over it. Because a you want it and b the rest of the EU might feel irritated by a country that thinks that way. Like i said, Poland took in 6000 refugees in 2015. Another influx of this amount and your country might forever be changed. The ukrainian numbers are of course something entirely different but every polish person claiming to feel threatened by the influx of muslims in his country is, well, easily frigthened.
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Most justice systems do not label children as criminals until they are adults, unless they commit really serious crimes(rape, murder). Children can be taken from their parents by the state, but the state is often reluctant to do that without clear abuse. That state foster systems are not an improvement from the average bad parent.
There are ongoing debates about this in Norway. On one side, there is a trial against a mother whose daughter died in her care by anorexia. The mother is on trial for being partially responsible for her death by refusing to recieve help. Our terrorist Anders Behring Brevik also had a terrible childhood, and was almost taken away from his mother. What would have become of him if he were raised by someone else?
On the other side, there are hate campagins against "barnevernet" (childguard) especially among eastern european immigrant families who feel very threatened by the fact that children can be taken away, and misunderstand that it is only done as a last resort in extreme cases to protect the children.
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On June 22 2018 20:45 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +Most justice systems do not label children as criminals until they are adults, unless they commit really serious crimes(rape, murder). Children can be taken from their parents by the state, but the state is often reluctant to do that without clear abuse. That state foster systems are not an improvement from the average bad parent. There are ongoing debates about this in Norway. On one side, there is a trial against a mother whose daughter died in her care by anorexia. The mother is on trial for being partially responsible for her death by refusing to recieve help. Our terrorist Anders Behring Brevik also had a terrible childhood, and was almost taken away from his mother. What would have become of him if he were raised by someone else? On the other side, there are hate campagins against "barnevernet" (childguard) especially among eastern european immigrant families who feel very threatened by the fact that children can be taken away, and misunderstand that it is only done as a last resort in extreme cases to protect the children.
Debates about when and how the state should intervene in these cases are healthy. There is no perfect system that we can create, the problem is to complex and nuanced. There is also a general demonization of department of child services in the US. They are seen as either as over bearing or not taking action soon enough. And there is a general complaint that they should “Just take the kids away” from bad parents. People do not like engaging with the idea that the foster system is also terrible. Most people have a hard enough time raising their own kids. So people capable of raising someone else’s abused child are in short supply. And on top of that, it is hard to extinguish the parent’s rights completely, so there is always a chance they could seek custody of their children down the line.
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On June 22 2018 21:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 20:45 Slydie wrote:Most justice systems do not label children as criminals until they are adults, unless they commit really serious crimes(rape, murder). Children can be taken from their parents by the state, but the state is often reluctant to do that without clear abuse. That state foster systems are not an improvement from the average bad parent. There are ongoing debates about this in Norway. On one side, there is a trial against a mother whose daughter died in her care by anorexia. The mother is on trial for being partially responsible for her death by refusing to recieve help. Our terrorist Anders Behring Brevik also had a terrible childhood, and was almost taken away from his mother. What would have become of him if he were raised by someone else? On the other side, there are hate campagins against "barnevernet" (childguard) especially among eastern european immigrant families who feel very threatened by the fact that children can be taken away, and misunderstand that it is only done as a last resort in extreme cases to protect the children. Debates about when and how the state should intervene in these cases are healthy. There is no perfect system that we can create, the problem is to complex and nuanced. There is also a general demonization of department of child services in the US. They are seen as either as over bearing or not taking action soon enough. And there is a general complaint that they should “Just take the kids away” from bad parents. People do not like engaging with the idea that the foster system is also terrible. Most people have a hard enough time raising their own kids. So people capable of raising someone else’s abused child are in short supply. And on top of that, it is hard to extinguish the parent’s rights completely, so there is always a chance they could seek custody of their children down the line.
And it's also why one of the oft-used anti abortion arguments rings hollow. Kids born and given away to the foster system don't tend to do well. I'm not sure why it keeps going wrong, though. I know that the rules are stringent as all hell to try and protect the children and make sure they go into good homes. Somehow it doesn't pan out, or they end up getting abused by the foster families, or they're too badly screwed up from prior experiences to settle down and run away.
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On June 22 2018 18:47 Silvanel wrote:
What i am trying to say is that its not up to You to say what is enough and what isnt. Polish people has elected a governemnt for which 6k is too much already. Not to mention that we have 1mln + migrants from Ukraine. This is a very important thing for polish voter and actually one thing over which i think general public would support exiting EU if needed. I mean if faced with a choice whether to accept large quantity of migrants or exit EU the general public would rather exit EU.
the polish people can decide anything they like; but they can still be objectively wrong, or the more easily reached standard of highly probably wrong.
And everyone can have opinions on what is and isn't enough; and on whether others' assessments of that are reasonable.
many people hold unreasonable beliefs. And thus it's not surprising that such beliefs have a large effect on a democracy; or that politicians exploit and aggravate some of those beliefs for their own gain.
It also feels like you're still not addressing the actual argument the other person made.
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EPT
