European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1139

On June 23 2018 08:25 Simberto wrote:
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts.

On June 23 2018 09:35 Nyxisto wrote:


The choice of the German chancellor when it comes to their stance on EU integration is, by its very definition, not internal politics. In fact it's the most important topic we have to talk about. What is the European Union supposed to be structured like, and how will power be distributed between its member states and the EU institutions? No other question will impact the lives of EU citizens as much as this one. It enters every domain of policy making.

As Simberto points out, if you think that it matters whether there are a few more foreigners in Poland or not in the long term you've completely and utterly lost the plot.

On June 23 2018 20:58 Sent. wrote:


3/7 of your posts made in this thread in June were related to migration, so it seems like the topic is either important to you as well or it's just a topic that generates a lot of posts in general, regardless of how important it is to people posting about it.



I'll try to explain my point better, though I suspect you got it from the start and just don't care.

Yes, obviously what the German chancellor does outside of Germany is not internal politics, but who becomes the German chancellor is internal politics, which non-Germans don't follow. When they see the acts of German chancellor they assume they're acts of Germany and it's completely irrelevant to them that some German politicians they barely recognize (at best) have different ideas than the German chancellor. Merkel is the face of Germany in their eyes and "Refugees Welcome" is perceived as a German idea, so Merkel gets all the praise or hate for its implementation into reality. German stance on migration was widely unpopular on the East, so it was perfectly reasonable for Eastern politicians willing to capitalize on that to criticise Merkel since she's the one responsible for that. Also, I may be wrong but I think Eastern governments consistently criticise those decisions as "German" without specyfying personalities, and it's just parliamentarians / other politicians / journalists who focus on Merkel in their speeches, which is an important distinction.

Eastern politicians are also perfectly aware that Merkel is their best possible partner in other aspects of German-Eastern relations, but that doesn't matter for the rherotic they use in public because those aspects are usually not in the focus of the German or Eastern political theatres and/or they're discussed behind the closed doors. I think it's really optimistic to assume that non-Germans care about Merkel's ideas on something like "the EU institutions". Not only it's something far too nuanced for the average voter (good luck expecting them to know the difference between the Council and the Comission), but Merkel also does her best to stay as vague and reserved as possible whenever asked about those topics. Macron on the other hand states his ideas clearly so it's easy to take a side with or against him, and I'm not sure if Merkel is interested in getting more of that.

I think I need to underline that I'm talking about the opinions of average Eastern Europaens without attempting to point who's right or wrong. I like Merkel and her vision of the EU in general, but German interests are her top priority and those aren't always aligned with those of my country.



Is that "you" directed at me specifically?

On June 23 2018 21:52 sc-darkness wrote:
Please teach me how to have a meaningful debate Mr Overlord. I shall listen and learn from your Great Mind. Also, please show mercy as we're mere mortals here.

Edit: Also, why did you think it was a good idea to refer to the Polish guy above with a random Polish name? Unless you know him, of course.



I like Merkel when she defends the EU from external threats like Trump, Putin, etc. I dislike her when she doesn't defend the EU from refugees without passports. Or, when she says "refugees are welcome", and then migration skyrockets when it was previously ok-ish. Yes, I agree that Merkel does things in Germany's interests and those interests aren't always good for everyone else. If Germans feel guilty for what Hitler did and think the remedy is to accept more refugees, I don't feel guilty to be against the level of immigration in 2015. I just don't think that's their way to say sorry. There are better ways.

Also, I don't care if Germans can't find an affordable flat in Germany. I don't care if Germans have problems with bike paths or things like that. The same way Germans don't care how my country, Bulgaria, is doing. I care about Germany's foreign policy as long as it affects my country. We're sovereign nations after all and that's perfectly fine. Having said all that, I respect Germany but it's not more important to me than my country's problems. If Germany experiences a problem which affects other countries, then I'll see if it's worthy to worry about.

On June 23 2018 22:26 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:


It's not a random name, maybe if you wouldn't lack reading comprehension so much and if you had the necessary education, you would know. These are the tools you need for meaningful debate, you can learn them in school. If your country does not provide you with such, you are free to move to another which does. But apparently you don't like that freedom, so you have to rely on Mr. Overlord on the internet to teach you something. The rest of your post just demonstrates how short-sighted you are, when you think things like affordable rents in Germany would not affect you. Higher rents = less Goldstrand = less moneys for you mate.

On June 23 2018 22:34 iamthedave wrote:


Note: You've yet to substantiate, defend, or prove that there is a 'threat' from immigrants without passports, or if such a threat exists, what it constitutes.

On June 23 2018 20:16 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:


I obviously would not sell to the country. What's your point, there being a country in the EU that doesn't want to buy from Germany anything at all? Do you want to make me laugh or cry? The usual victim-rhetoric of basically being forced into buying from Germany? You are not. You can buy from wherever you want. It's just that the very EU makes it possible for you to buy and sell without any hassles and get quality products all the while. Sure, go to China, make friends with them and you will only have to give up about everything from taxation to intellectual property rights. Or make business with the US without having the EU at your back, how's that gonna turn out?

Accusing me of kindergarden logic while suggesting there's a country out there that doesn't want to buy from Germany, good one. Who's really delusional here? I'm just telling you, listening to your own populists will only make populists in Germany stronger, which in the end will end - without a single doubt in my and every other politically educated persons mind - with a real show of force, e.g. the stuff Trump does. You want to re-negotiate trade deals within the EU with a Germany that's lead by ultrapatriotic populists? Your own populists wouldn't mind for sure, as they don't necessarily want your country to succeed, but rather their friends, lovers and associates. You can ride on your national pride forever and ignore the fact you're in a weaker position, or you can try to put it aside and vote for people who are in favor of working together instead of against each other. You and that sensitive French guy get up in arms thinking I somehow was supporting the idea of a dominant Germany, one to rule them all and forever. I'm not. I support the idea of taking responsiblity that comes with overwhelmingly more beneficial policies all designed to pull countries out of the very gutter the Russians left (and my grandparents were responsible for in the first place). Is this a concept foreign to the values in your country? Your own fucking problem, take care of it. Don't expect others to make up for it.

Counter-question: Do you care at all what's happening inside Germany? I highly doubt so, even if in reality it should probably worry you a lot more than what's happening with your own politics. But I'm sure, when it comes to crime statistics and the proportion of migrants in it you know a lot. Is it because your politicians and media have only that to talk about, while they try to hide from you it being their own incompetence and greed that's holding you back? Now that EU funds can only improve quality of life marginally anymore, you cry for more and at the same time you refuse to take some weight. How's that even supposed to be fair? How long do you think this will go with the German public, when my own very tame opinion is already viewed as offensive to you? I'm not even particularly patriotic, so I guess you'll have to wait and see for the uglies to come out where they've been hiding for the past 70yrs. What happened 2015 resulted out of German guilt and I highly doubt it'll repeat itself, so in the future we will have an actual battle about who's going to take in how many and this time the German public and by them German politics will not be so nice and take everyone so your people can enjoy EU moneys all for themselves.

Allow me to ask you to go through the following very simple theory with me: In 2020 another 2mio Africans and Arabs are stranded on the islands of Greece and Italy. They will take the same routes others did before. Just now, Germany closes its borders entirely which would make travel to Scandinavia, the one other most desired destination, pretty difficult. Merkel has resigned under public pressure, AfD is in power (a likely prospect even in these days for another guy who's crying a lot about Germany in this thread). "They don't respect Dublin II, so we don't respect free travel" is what they tell the German public and close off borders for Eastern Europeans in the process since the chance is high in the back of that Mercedes Vito with the Romanian plate are 20 illegals and you can't possibly check every Vito from Romania, I mean there are thousands of them daily. No more moneys from fellow Romanians working in crop and construction as well. Would you like that? I guess not. Does it sound unlikely? Highly, as of right now. Continue the political shitshow, try to act up like England while spreading lies about what the EU does and does not do for you, depict Merkel as Hitler, cry about unfairness while reaping benefits and you will turn a good part of the German public against you, which in turn will make way for the same kind of demagogues who are threatening stability and security all over Europe these days.

On June 23 2018 20:58 Sent. wrote:
Eastern politicians are also perfectly aware that Merkel is their best possible partner in other aspects of German-Eastern relations, but that doesn't matter for the rherotic they use in public because those aspects are usually not in the focus of the German or Eastern political theatres and/or they're discussed behind the closed doors. I think it's really optimistic to assume that non-Germans care about Merkel's ideas on something like "the EU institutions". Not only it's something far too nuanced for the average voter (good luck expecting them to know the difference between the Council and the Comission), but Merkel also does her best to stay as vague and reserved as possible whenever asked about those topics. Macron on the other hand states his ideas clearly so it's easy to take a side with or against him, and I'm not sure if Merkel is interested in getting more of that.

I think I need to underline that I'm talking about the opinions of average Eastern Europaens without attempting to point who's right or wrong. I like Merkel and her vision of the EU in general, but German interests are her top priority and those aren't always aligned with those of my country.

Is that "you" directed at me specifically?

On June 24 2018 02:08 sc-darkness wrote:
Just noticed it's been 2 years since the UK shot themselves in the foot... also known as Brexit.

On June 23 2018 22:36 sc-darkness wrote:



I'm sure I'll be just fine with or without higher rents in Germany, don't worry about me. Can't wait to see you warned/banned soon though.



I said it in a previous post why I think it's dangerous. Trojan horse (immigrants without passports) is a keyword.

On June 23 2018 20:58 Sent. wrote:


3/7 of your posts made in this thread in June were related to migration, so it seems like the topic is either important to you as well or it's just a topic that generates a lot of posts in general, regardless of how important it is to people posting about it.

On June 24 2018 02:52 iamthedave wrote:


Yes... but those immigrants don't seem to actually exist.

Hence my 'substantiate' point.

What are these 'trojan horse' immigrants actually doing? On whose bidding? Because buddy, if this is an attempt to talk terrorism, you're dead in the water. Hardly any immigrants have been involved in terrorism. That's simple fact you can look up yourself. The vast majority of terrorist incidents across europe have been performed by citizens radicalised via the intarwebz or other media.

What - in short - are you actually talking about?

Or are you just intending to make vague statements and provide no actual support for them?

On June 24 2018 06:11 TheDwf wrote:
1/ 12 countries + Show Spoiler + wrote a letter to protest against Macron's idea of an eurozone budget (source).

2/ More than 700 people were saved today in Méditerranée.

3/ Macron and Sanchez proposed "closed centres"—how kind of them not to call it camps—on the European soil for people who arrive. Those centres would be located in the countries of arrival. (So Italy will say no.)

Macron said: "we can't have countries which massively benefit from the EU solidarity and then massively claim national egoism on migratory themes". He also said that he was favourable to sanctions in case of "non-solidarity". Macron had denounced this week the "leprosy" of nationalism.

4/ Another Aquarius case: Italy and Malta refuse to welcome the Lifeline, with 230 persons onboard.

5/ Salvini criticized the "arrogance" of the French president, saying "we invite him to stop with the insults and demonstrate his generosity with facts, by opening the numerous French ports and stopping to repel [people at the Franco-Italian border]. (...) If the French arrogance is thinking about turning Italy into a refugee camp for the whole Europe, maybe with some euros of tipping, it's completely mistaken". He also added: "we may be leprous populists, but I will only take lessons from people who open their ports. Welcome the thousands of migrants and then we'll talk again".

---

+ Show Spoiler +

This political crisis about "migrants" is clearly triggered on purpose by right-wing and far-right demagogues: the numbers of arrivals by sea is now extremely low; this should be a non-theme, or at least something secondary. Salvini decided to exploit this for internal reasons, probably to drain the rest of the right in case of new elections (it works according to polls, so why stop...), and to hide the fact that this so-called "government of change" will soon betray their social promises.

Meanwhile, it seems that Macron is decided to clash with the far-right axis, but given France's behaviour on the theme and his own migratory policy, he has no credibility whatsoever. Salvini is obnoxious but he makes me laugh; he knows that Macron is full of s*** and calls his bluff on his purely verbal welcoming stance.

The summit next week should be a summum of European Disunion.

On June 24 2018 06:16 sc-darkness wrote:


If you want proof, you can visit Google. I'm sure your web browser is working. As far as logic is concerned, imagine the year is 2015 and you're ISIS, wouldn't you instruct some of your members to get rid of their passports and enter the EU? Isn't that a possibility?

On June 24 2018 06:27 iamthedave wrote:


Yeah, I've visited google. That's why I'm calling you out on your jingoism. There is no evidence for the shit you're talking about. Not that I can find.

I repeat: most incidents of Islamic terrorism have been performed by citizens of the countries where those attacks occurred.

That is to say, not immigrants.

No Trojan horse.

Citizens. With proper identification. On the books. Social security, jobs, all the rest of it.

People like you and me. Those guys. They're the ones who've done the terrorism. Not Adbul from Syria, fresh off the boat.

Substantiate your argument, or just admit you're regurgitating someone else's talking points and don't have a clue what you're talking about.

But to answer your conspiracy theory, yes, theoretically they could have done that. Do you have evidence that they did?

Hey, there's this thing called Google. Apparently you've heard of it. Surely you can find some evidence to back up something that you've said. Right?

On June 24 2018 07:44 sc-darkness wrote:


So what's that?
2016 Ansbach bombing
Würzburg train attack

I already know your next argument. "They're just 2!". That's how many I've found within 5-minute Google search. I'm sure there a few more at least.

Edit: A few more. Failed asylum seekers.
2017 Hamburg attack
2016 Berlin attack

Also, this:
New Year's Eve sexual assaults in Germany

On June 24 2018 06:11 TheDwf wrote:
1/ 12 countries + Show Spoiler + wrote a letter to protest against Macron's idea of an eurozone budget (source).

2/ More than 700 people were saved today in Méditerranée.

3/ Macron and Sanchez proposed "closed centres"—how kind of them not to call it camps—on the European soil for people who arrive. Those centres would be located in the countries of arrival. (So Italy will say no.)

Macron said: "we can't have countries which massively benefit from the EU solidarity and then massively claim national egoism on migratory themes". He also said that he was favourable to sanctions in case of "non-solidarity". Macron had denounced this week the "leprosy" of nationalism.

4/ Another Aquarius case: Italy and Malta refuse to welcome the Lifeline, with 230 persons onboard.

5/ Salvini criticized the "arrogance" of the French president, saying "we invite him to stop with the insults and demonstrate his generosity with facts, by opening the numerous French ports and stopping to repel [people at the Franco-Italian border]. (...) If the French arrogance is thinking about turning Italy into a refugee camp for the whole Europe, maybe with some euros of tipping, it's completely mistaken". He also added: "we may be leprous populists, but I will only take lessons from people who open their ports. Welcome the thousands of migrants and then we'll talk again".

---

+ Show Spoiler +

This political crisis about "migrants" is clearly triggered on purpose by right-wing and far-right demagogues: the numbers of arrivals by sea is now extremely low; this should be a non-theme, or at least something secondary. Salvini decided to exploit this for internal reasons, probably to drain the rest of the right in case of new elections (it works according to polls, so why stop...), and to hide the fact that this so-called "government of change" will soon betray their social promises.

Meanwhile, it seems that Macron is decided to clash with the far-right axis, but given France's behaviour on the theme and his own migratory policy, he has no credibility whatsoever. Salvini is obnoxious but he makes me laugh; he knows that Macron is full of s*** and calls his bluff on his purely verbal welcoming stance.

The summit next week should be a summum of European Disunion.