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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it.
But... that isn't true. It just isn't.
The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks
Every single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling.
Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones.
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But exploiting fear is so useful to rationalize a non-welcoming stance, so why not?!
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On June 24 2018 18:05 TheDwf wrote:
But exploiting fear is so useful to rationalize a non-welcoming stance, so why not?!
Personally, I don't want migrants from specific parts of the world to live in my country. No, not because of racism. There's a very simple reason. They live their life as if they're in their own country and don't adapt to the local culture. I saw this in the west when I was living there. Yes, freedom is a nice thing, but as a somewhat patriot (not the same thing as nationalist or far-right wing), I want my country's culture and values to be preserved. That's exactly the reason why I'm ok with people from the west (Latin America included), Japan and other places to live in my country. I just trust them to be more or less culturally similar or acceptable.
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On June 24 2018 18:41 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 18:05 TheDwf wrote:
But exploiting fear is so useful to rationalize a non-welcoming stance, so why not?! Personally, I don't want migrants from specific parts of the world to live in my country. No, not because of racism. There's a very simple reason. They live their live as if they're in their own country and don't adapt to the local culture. I saw this in the west when I was living there. Yes, freedom is a nice thing, but as a somewhat patriot (not the same thing as nationalist or far-right wing), I want my country's culture and values to be preserved. That's exactly the reason why I'm ok with people from the west, Latin America, Japan and other places to live in my country. I just trust them to be more or less culturally similar or acceptable.
What's your country by the way?
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On June 24 2018 18:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 18:41 sc-darkness wrote:On June 24 2018 18:05 TheDwf wrote:
But exploiting fear is so useful to rationalize a non-welcoming stance, so why not?! Personally, I don't want migrants from specific parts of the world to live in my country. No, not because of racism. There's a very simple reason. They live their live as if they're in their own country and don't adapt to the local culture. I saw this in the west when I was living there. Yes, freedom is a nice thing, but as a somewhat patriot (not the same thing as nationalist or far-right wing), I want my country's culture and values to be preserved. That's exactly the reason why I'm ok with people from the west, Latin America, Japan and other places to live in my country. I just trust them to be more or less culturally similar or acceptable. What's your country by the way?
Bulgaria. I know most people wouldn't want to live there for economic reasons, but I still see foreigners quite often.
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Merkel the far-left radical. Yeah, no.
Edit: @Danglars
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On June 24 2018 16:54 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it. But... that isn't true. It just isn't. The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacksEvery single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling. Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones.
Well, he's not wrong in saying that they were mostly immigrants and refugees/people posing as refugees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks#Suspects
8 people involved, at least 7 were immigrants, and the mastermind spent most of his life outside of Spain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Attackers
3 attackers. 2 of them migrants, although grew up in the UK. 1 failed asylum applicant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack
1 perpetrator, posed as a refugee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack#Investigation
1 perpetrator, 5 suspected accomplices. The perpetrators was a migrant and spent most of his life outside of France. 4 of the alleged accomplices were immigrants.
So roughly half of the most deadly attacks were carried out primarily by immigrants. But the problem is not immigration. It's the fact that Western European societies allowed for parallel communities to exist for so long. This creates circumstances that make them more prone to radicalization - they struggle with employment, do not feel like they belong in the country they were raised in, etc.
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On June 24 2018 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 16:54 iamthedave wrote:On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it. But... that isn't true. It just isn't. The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacksEvery single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling. Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones. Well, he's not wrong in saying that they were mostly immigrants and refugees/people posing as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks#Suspects8 people involved, at least 7 were immigrants, and the mastermind spent most of his life outside of Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Attackers3 attackers. 2 of them migrants, although grew up in the UK. 1 failed asylum applicant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack1 perpetrator, posed as a refugee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack#Investigation1 perpetrator, 5 suspected accomplices. The perpetrators was a migrant and spent most of his life outside of France. 4 of the alleged accomplices were immigrants. So roughly half of the most deadly attacks were carried out primarily by immigrants. But the problem is not immigration. It's the fact that Western European societies allowed for parallel communities to exist for so long. This creates circumstances that make them more prone to radicalization - they struggle with employment, do not feel like they belong in the country they were raised in, etc.
Should also note that the guy from the Nice Attack was on the French soil since 2005, so 11 years (so good luck doing Minority Report stuff if we are to stop people from coming because one of them might perpetrate an attack in 10, 20, 30 years...). So far the investigation found no ties with ISIS, despite their claim.
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On June 24 2018 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 16:54 iamthedave wrote:On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it. But... that isn't true. It just isn't. The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacksEvery single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling. Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones. Well, he's not wrong in saying that they were mostly immigrants and refugees/people posing as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks#Suspects8 people involved, at least 7 were immigrants, and the mastermind spent most of his life outside of Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Attackers3 attackers. 2 of them migrants, although grew up in the UK. 1 failed asylum applicant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack1 perpetrator, posed as a refugee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack#Investigation1 perpetrator, 5 suspected accomplices. The perpetrators was a migrant and spent most of his life outside of France. 4 of the alleged accomplices were immigrants. So roughly half of the most deadly attacks were carried out primarily by immigrants. But the problem is not immigration. It's the fact that Western European societies allowed for parallel communities to exist for so long. This creates circumstances that make them more prone to radicalization - they struggle with employment, do not feel like they belong in the country they were raised in, etc.
Fair enough, I didn't make my point quite clear enough, that's on me.
My real point is that these guys almost all made it through legal immigration procedures and were, as far as anyone knew, naturalised, with jobs and lives and everything. They weren't Muhammad Abdul, ISIS fighter from Syria, pretending to be a refugee. One or two, sure, but the vast majority were radicalised citizens, and many of them were radicalised via the internet.
In the Nice case, for example, the main guy had lived in France for 13 years without incident.
In Barcelona, one of these 'immigrants' had lived in Spain since he was four. Okay sure, they are from another nation, but they really don't help the actual argument put forward.
Short of 'no immigration, period', there wasn't much going to prevent these attacks from happening. And the anti-immigration crowd aren't arguing for that, they're putting forth the nonsense sc is peddling, that there's a ton of ISIS militants coming over, when it's a vanishingly small number. Maybe dozens.
And yes, I agree with your final point. Even relatively naturalised, long-term citizens can be prone to radicalisation because our societies are increasingly socially isolated.
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On June 24 2018 20:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:On June 24 2018 16:54 iamthedave wrote:On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it. But... that isn't true. It just isn't. The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacksEvery single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling. Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones. Well, he's not wrong in saying that they were mostly immigrants and refugees/people posing as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks#Suspects8 people involved, at least 7 were immigrants, and the mastermind spent most of his life outside of Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Attackers3 attackers. 2 of them migrants, although grew up in the UK. 1 failed asylum applicant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack1 perpetrator, posed as a refugee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack#Investigation1 perpetrator, 5 suspected accomplices. The perpetrators was a migrant and spent most of his life outside of France. 4 of the alleged accomplices were immigrants. So roughly half of the most deadly attacks were carried out primarily by immigrants. But the problem is not immigration. It's the fact that Western European societies allowed for parallel communities to exist for so long. This creates circumstances that make them more prone to radicalization - they struggle with employment, do not feel like they belong in the country they were raised in, etc. Should also note that the guy from the Nice Attack was on the French soil since 2005, so 11 years (so good luck doing Minority Report stuff if we are to stop people from coming because one of them might perpetrate an attack in 10, 20, 30 years...). So far the investigation found no ties with ISIS, despite their claim.
It's also about preventing other crimes like "was repeatedly reported for domestic violence" or "was known to French police for five prior criminal offences; notably for threatening behaviour, violence, and petty theft."
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On June 24 2018 21:08 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 20:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 24 2018 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:On June 24 2018 16:54 iamthedave wrote:On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it. But... that isn't true. It just isn't. The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacksEvery single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling. Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones. Well, he's not wrong in saying that they were mostly immigrants and refugees/people posing as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks#Suspects8 people involved, at least 7 were immigrants, and the mastermind spent most of his life outside of Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Attackers3 attackers. 2 of them migrants, although grew up in the UK. 1 failed asylum applicant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack1 perpetrator, posed as a refugee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack#Investigation1 perpetrator, 5 suspected accomplices. The perpetrators was a migrant and spent most of his life outside of France. 4 of the alleged accomplices were immigrants. So roughly half of the most deadly attacks were carried out primarily by immigrants. But the problem is not immigration. It's the fact that Western European societies allowed for parallel communities to exist for so long. This creates circumstances that make them more prone to radicalization - they struggle with employment, do not feel like they belong in the country they were raised in, etc. Should also note that the guy from the Nice Attack was on the French soil since 2005, so 11 years (so good luck doing Minority Report stuff if we are to stop people from coming because one of them might perpetrate an attack in 10, 20, 30 years...). So far the investigation found no ties with ISIS, despite their claim. It's also about preventing other crimes like "was repeatedly reported for domestic violence" or "was known to French police for five prior criminal offences; notably for threatening behaviour, violence, and petty theft."
Crimes which were unknown to western societies before those durn immigrants turned up.
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On June 24 2018 21:08 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 20:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 24 2018 20:38 maybenexttime wrote:On June 24 2018 16:54 iamthedave wrote:On June 24 2018 12:06 Nyxisto wrote:
We've been over terrorism a lot in this thread, like really a lot. Yes, there is terrorism committed by immigrants, some refugees. Most of the most vicious recent terror attacks have been committed by either immigrants or refugees, but the reverse is not true. Most immigrants are not terrorists. In fact virtually none of them are, because despite the high impact of them, they are not frequent.
So before we go through another ten page loop of conflating immigration and terrorism let's just not do it. But... that isn't true. It just isn't. The majority have been performed by resident nationals of the countries where the incident occurred. Check the individual links for the deadliest attacks in the last decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacksEvery single one of them was carried out by people who'd lived in the country for most of their lives and were radicalised in the country. Please, read it, and see for yourself. You don't even agree with the statement and you're spreading the exact false information that sc is peddling. Neither immigrants nor refugees have been behind any of the most vicious recent terror attacks. They've been behind a few. But none of the truly big ones. Well, he's not wrong in saying that they were mostly immigrants and refugees/people posing as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks#Suspects8 people involved, at least 7 were immigrants, and the mastermind spent most of his life outside of Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Attackers3 attackers. 2 of them migrants, although grew up in the UK. 1 failed asylum applicant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack1 perpetrator, posed as a refugee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack#Investigation1 perpetrator, 5 suspected accomplices. The perpetrators was a migrant and spent most of his life outside of France. 4 of the alleged accomplices were immigrants. So roughly half of the most deadly attacks were carried out primarily by immigrants. But the problem is not immigration. It's the fact that Western European societies allowed for parallel communities to exist for so long. This creates circumstances that make them more prone to radicalization - they struggle with employment, do not feel like they belong in the country they were raised in, etc. Should also note that the guy from the Nice Attack was on the French soil since 2005, so 11 years (so good luck doing Minority Report stuff if we are to stop people from coming because one of them might perpetrate an attack in 10, 20, 30 years...). So far the investigation found no ties with ISIS, despite their claim. It's also about preventing other crimes like "was repeatedly reported for domestic violence" or "was known to French police for five prior criminal offences; notably for threatening behaviour, violence, and petty theft."
Yeah, it's "funny" how many perpetrators had beaten their wife before. It seems that our societies mishandling masculine violence allows them to pass the next step.
Many (future) terrorists also went to jail, where they became indoctrinated. But to appear tough on "law and order," politicians keep insisting on oversending young violent men into overcrowded prisons where they're vulnerable to propaganda...
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![[image loading]](http://asset-2.soupcdn.com/asset/14395/8497_2328_500.jpeg)
User was warned for this post
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I think you're going to trigger a lot of Germans with this. :D
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The ballot boxes are closed in Turkey. Pray so that Erdogan doesn't win in the first round
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I think he knows how to win, one or the other way...
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Some French Communists who were observing the election were apparently arrested, the Turkish authorities are so funny...
Edit—just released.
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On June 24 2018 23:32 TheDwf wrote:
The ballot boxes are closed in Turkey. Pray so that Erdogan doesn't win in the first round
Well... I prayed before. Now i'm an atheist.
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On June 24 2018 23:57 Aceace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2018 23:32 TheDwf wrote:
The ballot boxes are closed in Turkey. Pray so that Erdogan doesn't win in the first round Well... I prayed before. Now i'm an atheist.
The participation seems very high, is it a good or bad sign?
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Participation does not matter at all... Erdoğan gonna take it one way or another...
Turkey always have extremely high participation. (over %80-85) Unlike west, we expect sooo much from politics and politicians.
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EPT
