|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 22 2018 22:00 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 21:51 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2018 20:45 Slydie wrote:Most justice systems do not label children as criminals until they are adults, unless they commit really serious crimes(rape, murder). Children can be taken from their parents by the state, but the state is often reluctant to do that without clear abuse. That state foster systems are not an improvement from the average bad parent. There are ongoing debates about this in Norway. On one side, there is a trial against a mother whose daughter died in her care by anorexia. The mother is on trial for being partially responsible for her death by refusing to recieve help. Our terrorist Anders Behring Brevik also had a terrible childhood, and was almost taken away from his mother. What would have become of him if he were raised by someone else? On the other side, there are hate campagins against "barnevernet" (childguard) especially among eastern european immigrant families who feel very threatened by the fact that children can be taken away, and misunderstand that it is only done as a last resort in extreme cases to protect the children. Debates about when and how the state should intervene in these cases are healthy. There is no perfect system that we can create, the problem is to complex and nuanced. There is also a general demonization of department of child services in the US. They are seen as either as over bearing or not taking action soon enough. And there is a general complaint that they should “Just take the kids away” from bad parents. People do not like engaging with the idea that the foster system is also terrible. Most people have a hard enough time raising their own kids. So people capable of raising someone else’s abused child are in short supply. And on top of that, it is hard to extinguish the parent’s rights completely, so there is always a chance they could seek custody of their children down the line. And it's also why one of the oft-used anti abortion arguments rings hollow. Kids born and given away to the foster system don't tend to do well. I'm not sure why it keeps going wrong, though. I know that the rules are stringent as all hell to try and protect the children and make sure they go into good homes. Somehow it doesn't pan out, or they end up getting abused by the foster families, or they're too badly screwed up from prior experiences to settle down and run away.
They're doing much better than the aborted kids. It makes no sense to attack anti-abortion arguments like this because you're starting from the assumption that the aborted being isn't a person, which is contradictory to beliefs of the pro-life camp. It's like you're not even trying to understand the other side.
|
On June 22 2018 16:54 Silvanel wrote:
Thats Your personal opinion. If a country doesnt want someone inside its border is perfectly legit for it to deny entry. Thats this thing called sovereignty, such country doesnt need to explain itself to Merkel or Macron or Junker. Funnily enough i work with a lot of Germans (mainly from Baden-Wurtemberg) and most of them subscribe themselves to official Merkel line when in presence of other Germans. But when there are no other Germans around they change their opinion 100 degree and openly say how furious they are at their government. Political corectness at its finest. They are afraid to publicly express their views. You are lucky Afd its just plain crazy, if You (Germany) had someone as political savy as Orban or Kaczyński they would be already in power.
How is that contradictory at all? I myself know nobody on the grand stage of German politics right now I'd rather have in office than Merkel. And I was furious about her decision in 2015, I still am, not so much about the decision but how she chose to introduce the German public to it, which was "deal with it". She tried avoiding a humanitary crisis, which could or could not have happened. If you ask more sensible people than myself, there still are way too many humanitarian crisises happening on EU territory and on some examples I'd even agree on. So, when everyone on the Eastern front - mainly due to the fact you have a populace that on the average tends to be way more xenophobic and vote people in power who they think will protect whats "Polish" or "Hungarian" - chose to opt out of what basically was EU policy then and still is if I'm not completely mistaken, which says, wherever the people land first they have to stay and be processed from there.
But the peripheral nations like Italy and Greece were already crumbling under the pressure, you could see footage of trecks of African people marauding through their cities. And how would they hold all these people on their islands? If you don't wanna suddenly have a rogue island in front of your doorstep you need to get people off there and spread them all around, so we avoid the mistake that happened everywhere from the UK, France, Germany and pretty much anywhere migrants tend to go to (hint: it's not the slavic countries).
AfD is not plain crazy dude, they do what the Kaczynskis have done for decades now. Orban does it, Le Pen does it, every postmodern party, which are more like grass-roots movements, in every European country does it. They aren't even using the most ourageous rhetoric you could think of, not even close. In comparison to what really is a Nazi party, the NPD, they are tame and know exactly how far they can go. A few jabs at Holocaust remembrance here, repeating false statistics all the time until gullible ppl start believing them and so on, it's nothing more than every other populist movement elsewhere does.
Also, how ludicrous is your claim of AfD being already in power when Orban or Kaczynski would lead it? They have political veterans, they sure as hell get a lot of support from Russia. Do you think Orban really doesn't get something in return for making the sanctions on Russia imposed by the EU a main talking point of his campaign earlier this year? I'm all for sovereignty and I find it healthy there is a solid opposition against leftist agenda from our friends in the east. But at some point you have to accept your role and stop trying naysay everything or introduce your own solutions. Because voting for whoever wouldn't change the fact there are millions of people from Africa and the Middle East knocking at our doors while we all laugh at American hillbillies, as we know best walls cant stop people.
I will accept though, Poland has taken it's share with the Ukrainians, if your numbers are to be believed, I'm too lazy to check on it myself now. And this is something you never read about in German media, I'll give you that too. No side is innocent and we all have to lift some weight, but blindly supporting populist views can only make matters worse and that's what you're doing right now. Because you seriously think German people are brainwashed or afraid to voice their opinion in public somehow. You can rest assured, as I like to drink heavily and am located in southern Baden-Württemberg (where people mostly vote dark green which is probably along the Bavarian CSU the most conservative type of political branch around), talk in bars is pretty unfiltered these days and ironically we have to thank the AfD and maybe Wilders, Le Pen, Kaczynski and the rest of the gang for that. The success of the AfD is the very proof of it not being true, because such a party in parliament is something really new, unlike in your country bro.
On June 22 2018 08:07 Nyxisto wrote:
The alleged difference between V4 and Germany as a result of the refugee crisis is somewhat overhyped. If you take the long term look of 20-30 years then the Visegrad countries have a pretty strong partner in Merkel, who like much of Eastern Europe is rather reluctant when it comes to delegating powers to Brussels.
A France driven EU with a Social Democrat in Germany would probably steamroll every other single country in the Union so maybe people shouldn't be quite as hysteric about Merkel and make some room in their mind about topics that happen to not be immigration.
This also matters a lot and people are getting mislead so hard when they belive into rhetoric that's painting Merkel as some sort of power hungry aristocrat (though foreign media, at least in Europe, likes the Hitler comparison way more) who likes to impose her will on other countries. The woman is one of the few true Europeans left and while she certainly is quite efficient at handling power, I never got the feeling of her being cruel or prone to abusing it. If you challenge her on a political level, which especially Orban does, you obviously will get your ass beat at some point, because she's not only good at it, she has the means to back it up. She's not asking anyone to give up soverignty or accept bad deals. She's asking the rest of the EU to pull their weight after they got pampered for years with sweet Euros. Sure, there are a few grievances left with how migration is handled but not even media hype about rape and other crime got the AfD more than a solid 12,6% of votes cast. In the meantime Hungary voted a populist into what is basically sole rule and gave a right wing extremist party 19,7%. How are things in Poland? No problems with judges being replaced and such?
Stop mistaking Merkel for somehow being an avid fan of Brussels and Junckers et al as her buddies. She has Germany in mind first at all times and what Germany (not even the loonies from left and right deny this) has first in mind is to maintain peaceful and good relations to all their neighbours especially and the world on a broader spectrum. Every other point of policy is handled with this in mind, or do you really think she is being overly hard on Greece, Poland or even England? There is no feeling of superiority, there is just the itch that while we were pulling our weight, most of the others said nahh. And in the process they sold out their countries to populists who will most likely be remembered for what is likely to happen with these kind of politicians: of robbing the state and improving the lives of a few around them, while the rest gets fed with bits and pieces. It seems what people Southern and Eastern Europe oftentimes just tend to go with instead of politically educating themselves and start voting on something more than just patriotic feelings. You can't just go around everywhere blaming bigger countries (and their people lol) for this and that while completely forgetting about your own responsibilities and benefits you receive from this relationship.
Like some other dude said before, why don't you get real with it and opt out? Or are you just scared, like the English were but alas half of them listened to some puny dude who is now in hiding instead of using their brains. The EU has its flaws, but it's without alternative right now, it's the best we got and we all should start working with it instead of being mad about everything that comes with it, unless it's freebies ofc.
|
On June 22 2018 22:36 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 22:00 iamthedave wrote:On June 22 2018 21:51 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2018 20:45 Slydie wrote:Most justice systems do not label children as criminals until they are adults, unless they commit really serious crimes(rape, murder). Children can be taken from their parents by the state, but the state is often reluctant to do that without clear abuse. That state foster systems are not an improvement from the average bad parent. There are ongoing debates about this in Norway. On one side, there is a trial against a mother whose daughter died in her care by anorexia. The mother is on trial for being partially responsible for her death by refusing to recieve help. Our terrorist Anders Behring Brevik also had a terrible childhood, and was almost taken away from his mother. What would have become of him if he were raised by someone else? On the other side, there are hate campagins against "barnevernet" (childguard) especially among eastern european immigrant families who feel very threatened by the fact that children can be taken away, and misunderstand that it is only done as a last resort in extreme cases to protect the children. Debates about when and how the state should intervene in these cases are healthy. There is no perfect system that we can create, the problem is to complex and nuanced. There is also a general demonization of department of child services in the US. They are seen as either as over bearing or not taking action soon enough. And there is a general complaint that they should “Just take the kids away” from bad parents. People do not like engaging with the idea that the foster system is also terrible. Most people have a hard enough time raising their own kids. So people capable of raising someone else’s abused child are in short supply. And on top of that, it is hard to extinguish the parent’s rights completely, so there is always a chance they could seek custody of their children down the line. And it's also why one of the oft-used anti abortion arguments rings hollow. Kids born and given away to the foster system don't tend to do well. I'm not sure why it keeps going wrong, though. I know that the rules are stringent as all hell to try and protect the children and make sure they go into good homes. Somehow it doesn't pan out, or they end up getting abused by the foster families, or they're too badly screwed up from prior experiences to settle down and run away. They're doing much better than the aborted kids. It makes no sense to attack anti-abortion arguments like this because you're starting from the assumption that the aborted being isn't a person, which is contradictory to beliefs of the pro-life camp. It's like you're not even trying to understand the other side.
I believe the argument is that the state, and by extension its people are unwilling to invest the resources to care for unwanted or abused children. So taking away a one of the tools a woman has to control if she has a child or not is harmful if it is not paired with robust spending on child services.
Focusing the argument on if the unborn baby is a person or not is a way to take the focus away from the larger issues surrounding abortion. Like making abortion illegal doesn’t really make abortion go away, it just makes it a black market and less safe. Or how will the nation jail women for seeking an abortion. What services will be available to children of women who seek abortions.
People who only engage with the first part of the argument lack the courage of their convictions because that is the easy, desirable part of the argument. The second part is the negative outcome of the state sides with them and criminalizes abortions, which most pro-life advocates avoid at all cost.
|
On June 22 2018 17:11 SoSexy wrote:Map that shows where migrants were rescued: https://imgur.com/a/NLRfNxV#0m7lze8For the next step we'll send NGO ships directly into Nigeria!
Found a source of this map. It's from this NYT article.
Rescuing migrants closer to the Libyan coast saved hundreds of people at sea. But critics said it introduced a deadly incentive for more migrants to risk the journey and for smugglers to launch more boats.
“Migrants and refugees – encouraged by the stories of those who had successfully made it in the past – attempt the dangerous crossing since they are aware of and rely on humanitarian assistance to reach the E.U.,” said a risk analysis by Frontex, the European Union border and coast guard agency.
|
On June 22 2018 18:47 Silvanel wrote:
What i am trying to say is that its not up to You to say what is enough and what isnt. Polish people has elected a governemnt for which 6k is too much already. Not to mention that we have 1mln + migrants from Ukraine. This is a very important thing for polish voter and actually one thing over which i think general public would support exiting EU if needed. I mean if faced with a choice whether to accept large quantity of migrants or exit EU the general public would rather exit EU.
This is what the EU should have understood in the beginning. Instead, someone decided it was a good idea to accept refugees without passports. Absolutely dangerous idea, and I feel like terrorism in 2015 and 2016 was probably higher. Now that refugees aren't accepted so easily, things are a bit calmer. Before some left-wing guy gets crazy, I'm not saying every refugee is a bad person, but this no passport situation is pretty much a trojan horse and this is what ISIS abused.
|
In 2015 through 2017, how many refugees committed acts of terror? I think specifics would be helpful for the discussion.
|
On June 22 2018 18:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 08:07 Nyxisto wrote:
A France driven EU with a Social Democrat in Germany would probably steamroll every other single country in the Union so maybe people shouldn't be quite as hysteric about Merkel and make some room in their mind about topics that happen to not be immigration. What do you mean?
A government led by staunch pro-Europeans like say Schulz and Macron would certainly impose much bigger changes on Eastern Europe than Merkel ever will because at heart Merkel is a Eurosceptic. Schulz actually talked about imposing heavy fines on European countries that reject the European consensus, power would consolidate much faster in Brussels if a non-Conservative was in charge in Germany.
So from a perspective of the V4 and other countries that see the EU as an economic rather than a political Union, I wouldn't deride Merkel too much. If you think that Europe should be a union of states rather than an actual state in and of itself then you should be pretty happy about Merkel.
|
It's necessary to target the criticism expressed in public at Merkel because she's currently the chancellor of Germany. The voters in Eastern countries aren't interested in German internal politics, that Schulz is potentially way worse than Merkel has no importance to them because they barely recognize the guy. Both Merkel and V4 governments seem to be aware of that, the "conflict" is just exaggerated for internal needs.
|
Merkel isn't exactly the eurosceptic you describe her to be. Talking about European solidarity and accepting 1 million refugees is far from eurosceptic. I think I prefer a western leader who is in the middle of Kurz and Merkel in terms of immigration.
|
What i don't understand is why immigration is this gigantic thematic which apparently drowns out all of the rest of politics. Are 6000 brown people in poland really more important than any other topic?
As a person living in germany, i don't really feel the influence of that 1 million refugees. Other topics are far more pressing to me. Like the fact that it is impossible to find an apartment for rent in the city i live in. Or the lack of good bike paths. Or global warming. Or Söder's Bullshit. Or privacy concerns with regards to both state actors and corporate actors in the internet. But for some reason, for 3 years running, the main political discussion seems to be focused around refugees and immigration, and that discussion drowns out anything else.
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts.
|
On June 23 2018 05:24 Sent. wrote:
It's necessary to target the criticism expressed in public at Merkel because she's currently the chancellor of Germany. The voters in Eastern countries aren't interested in German internal politics, that Schulz is potentially way worse than Merkel has no importance to them because they barely recognize the guy. Both Merkel and V4 governments seem to be aware of that, the "conflict" is just exaggerated for internal needs.
The choice of the German chancellor when it comes to their stance on EU integration is, by its very definition, not internal politics. In fact it's the most important topic we have to talk about. What is the European Union supposed to be structured like, and how will power be distributed between its member states and the EU institutions? No other question will impact the lives of EU citizens as much as this one. It enters every domain of policy making.
As Simberto points out, if you think that it matters whether there are a few more foreigners in Poland or not in the long term you've completely and utterly lost the plot.
|
On June 23 2018 08:25 Simberto wrote:
What i don't understand is why immigration is this gigantic thematic which apparently drowns out all of the rest of politics. Are 6000 brown people in poland really more important than any other topic?
As a person living in germany, i don't really feel the influence of that 1 million refugees. Other topics are far more pressing to me. Like the fact that it is impossible to find an apartment for rent in the city i live in. Or the lack of good bike paths. Or global warming. Or Söder's Bullshit. Or privacy concerns with regards to both state actors and corporate actors in the internet. But for some reason, for 3 years running, the main political discussion seems to be focused around refugees and immigration, and that discussion drowns out anything else.
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts.
Are you talking about AfD in your post or just anyone? Because I don't think many people outside Germany care if you can find a flat or a good bike path. Cruel but do you care how my country is doing? I doubt it. 
|
On June 22 2018 22:36 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 22:00 iamthedave wrote:On June 22 2018 21:51 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2018 20:45 Slydie wrote:Most justice systems do not label children as criminals until they are adults, unless they commit really serious crimes(rape, murder). Children can be taken from their parents by the state, but the state is often reluctant to do that without clear abuse. That state foster systems are not an improvement from the average bad parent. There are ongoing debates about this in Norway. On one side, there is a trial against a mother whose daughter died in her care by anorexia. The mother is on trial for being partially responsible for her death by refusing to recieve help. Our terrorist Anders Behring Brevik also had a terrible childhood, and was almost taken away from his mother. What would have become of him if he were raised by someone else? On the other side, there are hate campagins against "barnevernet" (childguard) especially among eastern european immigrant families who feel very threatened by the fact that children can be taken away, and misunderstand that it is only done as a last resort in extreme cases to protect the children. Debates about when and how the state should intervene in these cases are healthy. There is no perfect system that we can create, the problem is to complex and nuanced. There is also a general demonization of department of child services in the US. They are seen as either as over bearing or not taking action soon enough. And there is a general complaint that they should “Just take the kids away” from bad parents. People do not like engaging with the idea that the foster system is also terrible. Most people have a hard enough time raising their own kids. So people capable of raising someone else’s abused child are in short supply. And on top of that, it is hard to extinguish the parent’s rights completely, so there is always a chance they could seek custody of their children down the line. And it's also why one of the oft-used anti abortion arguments rings hollow. Kids born and given away to the foster system don't tend to do well. I'm not sure why it keeps going wrong, though. I know that the rules are stringent as all hell to try and protect the children and make sure they go into good homes. Somehow it doesn't pan out, or they end up getting abused by the foster families, or they're too badly screwed up from prior experiences to settle down and run away. They're doing much better than the aborted kids. It makes no sense to attack anti-abortion arguments like this because you're starting from the assumption that the aborted being isn't a person, which is contradictory to beliefs of the pro-life camp. It's like you're not even trying to understand the other side.
Look, up in the sky, over your head! It's the point!
I understand their argument perfectly. If they make that argument I'll respectfully disagree. But it's weaselly to pivot to 'but you can give your kid up for adoption' as some do. It's a hollow argument that even they don't find convincing. The vast majority of people who are anti-abortion wouldn't even consider adopting. And almost without fail, these are the same people who scream to the heavens about family values and about how it's important for a child to have a father. But they don't mind throwing the children into a system that almost guarantees they'll never have one.
You might as well have just said 'there's no point in attacking abortion arguments'. The anti-abortion crowd are, as far as they're concerned, right. Flat-out, 100% correct. There's no point in even talking about the matter. They're right, anyone else is wrong, done, dusted. God said so.
Unfortunately I'm more of a humanist and I don't really like argumentation that leads to human misery, and 'just have the kid and give them up for adoption' creates nothing but more misery. For every lucky adopted kid who finds a home, there's ten who end up abused, running away from home, and living doomed lives on the streets of england, and probably the US (I don't know the US's statistics for that but i know they're not encouraging). How do adopted kids do in Poland?
Also, what P6 said.
|
On June 23 2018 04:31 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 18:47 Silvanel wrote:
What i am trying to say is that its not up to You to say what is enough and what isnt. Polish people has elected a governemnt for which 6k is too much already. Not to mention that we have 1mln + migrants from Ukraine. This is a very important thing for polish voter and actually one thing over which i think general public would support exiting EU if needed. I mean if faced with a choice whether to accept large quantity of migrants or exit EU the general public would rather exit EU. This is what the EU should have understood in the beginning. Instead, someone decided it was a good idea to accept refugees without passports. Absolutely dangerous idea, and I feel like terrorism in 2015 and 2016 was probably higher. Now that refugees aren't accepted so easily, things are a bit calmer. Before some left-wing guy gets crazy, I'm not saying every refugee is a bad person, but this no passport situation is pretty much a trojan horse and this is what ISIS abused.
The vast majority of terrorist incidents were performed by natives radicalised in their home countries via the internet or other social media.
In other words, they were already in the countries in the first place, and had no connection to the immigration wave that came from the war in Syria (which has been the main cause). There's been a few, yes. Nowhere near enough for your argument to be anything but vaguely hidden jingoism that you haven't investigated deeply enough. I don't know of a single creditable source that has confirmed a real link between immigration and crime in the UK.
The best you can say is that some immigrants commit crimes, but there's not even evidence that they do so more often than natives or at a higher proportion. The press in most countries just makes more of them for one reason or another.
Germany is an exception and I believe Sweden may be as well. However in Germany's case, the uptick was drawn more to migrants from North Africa than the Middle East.
|
On June 23 2018 17:30 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2018 08:25 Simberto wrote:
What i don't understand is why immigration is this gigantic thematic which apparently drowns out all of the rest of politics. Are 6000 brown people in poland really more important than any other topic?
As a person living in germany, i don't really feel the influence of that 1 million refugees. Other topics are far more pressing to me. Like the fact that it is impossible to find an apartment for rent in the city i live in. Or the lack of good bike paths. Or global warming. Or Söder's Bullshit. Or privacy concerns with regards to both state actors and corporate actors in the internet. But for some reason, for 3 years running, the main political discussion seems to be focused around refugees and immigration, and that discussion drowns out anything else.
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts. Are you talking about AfD in your post or just anyone? Because I don't think many people outside Germany care if you can find a flat or a good bike path. Cruel but do you care how my country is doing? I doubt it.
And this is exactly the only reason I ever could dream of for leaving the EU. The ungratefulness is just mind-boggling. Yea, of course Germany cares how your country, whichever it is, is doing. If you rely on exporting all your shit, you want other countries to be doing well, otherwise you'd have to sell for cheap. And yes, in the general populace, more than less are interested in having strong European allies. Name a country that has as many different cultural backgrounds inhabiting it as Germany nowadays has. You can't. You will hear about every other country inside the EU and even from most countries outside the EU from their very own people who live, study and work here. Or just wanna cash in on social services, these people talk too. How's the input from non-indigenous people in Eastern Europe? Is there any at all?
Stop pretending getting oppressed or dictated by Germany. You are not. You would certainly feel it if you were. Greece is not oppressed, Greece lied and stole from the EU for decades and now it has to at least get their basics right so this doesn't repeat itself. Same goes for Italy, Spain and France even. Ludicrous public spending paired with corruption makes almost every place in the EU a dream to live in, compared to what used to be there 25 years ago. Public spending in Germany meanwhile LOL? But somehow only one country is expected to work for this to stay there. Do you know what happens when they decide to not do it anymore? Do you remember the good times when everyone and their mums thought it was a wise idea to put economical chains on a country? Do you remember, when German people wouldn't believe in being European as well, but rather the masterrace? When the AfD is done with milking refugees for publicity, who will they turn on?
Not even sorry for the derogatory tone, just demonstrating what happens when you resort to populist propaganda instead of trying to be actual neighbours and not beggars with an attitude.
|
On June 23 2018 18:23 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2018 17:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 23 2018 08:25 Simberto wrote:
What i don't understand is why immigration is this gigantic thematic which apparently drowns out all of the rest of politics. Are 6000 brown people in poland really more important than any other topic?
As a person living in germany, i don't really feel the influence of that 1 million refugees. Other topics are far more pressing to me. Like the fact that it is impossible to find an apartment for rent in the city i live in. Or the lack of good bike paths. Or global warming. Or Söder's Bullshit. Or privacy concerns with regards to both state actors and corporate actors in the internet. But for some reason, for 3 years running, the main political discussion seems to be focused around refugees and immigration, and that discussion drowns out anything else.
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts. Are you talking about AfD in your post or just anyone? Because I don't think many people outside Germany care if you can find a flat or a good bike path. Cruel but do you care how my country is doing? I doubt it. And this is exactly the only reason I ever could dream of for leaving the EU. The ungratefulness is just mind-boggling. Yea, of course Germany cares how your country, whichever it is, is doing. If you rely on exporting all your shit, you want other countries to be doing well, otherwise you'd have to sell for cheap. And yes, in the general populace, more than less are interested in having strong European allies. Name a country that has as many different cultural backgrounds inhabiting it as Germany nowadays has. You can't. You will hear about every other country inside the EU and even from most countries outside the EU from their very own people who live, study and work here. Or just wanna cash in on social services, these people talk too. How's the input from non-indigenous people in Eastern Europe? Is there any at all? Stop pretending getting oppressed or dictated by Germany. You are not. You would certainly feel it if you were. Greece is not oppressed, Greece lied and stole from the EU for decades and now it has to at least get their basics right so this doesn't repeat itself. Same goes for Italy, Spain and France even. Ludicrous public spending paired with corruption makes almost every place in the EU a dream to live in, compared to what used to be there 25 years ago. But somehow only one country is expected to work for this to stay there. Do you know what happens when they decide to not do it anymore?
This post sums up everything wrong with the mainstream German view on EU. "We respected the rules and did everything fine, others are just lazy folks who just want to leech off us." Completely delusional.
|
On June 23 2018 08:25 Simberto wrote:
What i don't understand is why immigration is this gigantic thematic which apparently drowns out all of the rest of politics. Are 6000 brown people in poland really more important than any other topic?
As a person living in germany, i don't really feel the influence of that 1 million refugees. Other topics are far more pressing to me. Like the fact that it is impossible to find an apartment for rent in the city i live in. Or the lack of good bike paths. Or global warming. Or Söder's Bullshit. Or privacy concerns with regards to both state actors and corporate actors in the internet. But for some reason, for 3 years running, the main political discussion seems to be focused around refugees and immigration, and that discussion drowns out anything else.
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts.
To be fair for many of these people all those problems are connected. I.e. migrants stealing their jobs, making use of public services, buying houses (and increasing the shortage) etc.
|
On June 23 2018 18:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2018 18:23 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On June 23 2018 17:30 sc-darkness wrote:On June 23 2018 08:25 Simberto wrote:
What i don't understand is why immigration is this gigantic thematic which apparently drowns out all of the rest of politics. Are 6000 brown people in poland really more important than any other topic?
As a person living in germany, i don't really feel the influence of that 1 million refugees. Other topics are far more pressing to me. Like the fact that it is impossible to find an apartment for rent in the city i live in. Or the lack of good bike paths. Or global warming. Or Söder's Bullshit. Or privacy concerns with regards to both state actors and corporate actors in the internet. But for some reason, for 3 years running, the main political discussion seems to be focused around refugees and immigration, and that discussion drowns out anything else.
I don't understand why the only people who seem to be able to set a topic of discussion are the far right. There are so many far more important topics, and people only constantly seem to talk about how afraid they are of brown people, usually based far more on feelings than any verifiable or falsifiable facts. Are you talking about AfD in your post or just anyone? Because I don't think many people outside Germany care if you can find a flat or a good bike path. Cruel but do you care how my country is doing? I doubt it. And this is exactly the only reason I ever could dream of for leaving the EU. The ungratefulness is just mind-boggling. Yea, of course Germany cares how your country, whichever it is, is doing. If you rely on exporting all your shit, you want other countries to be doing well, otherwise you'd have to sell for cheap. And yes, in the general populace, more than less are interested in having strong European allies. Name a country that has as many different cultural backgrounds inhabiting it as Germany nowadays has. You can't. You will hear about every other country inside the EU and even from most countries outside the EU from their very own people who live, study and work here. Or just wanna cash in on social services, these people talk too. How's the input from non-indigenous people in Eastern Europe? Is there any at all? Stop pretending getting oppressed or dictated by Germany. You are not. You would certainly feel it if you were. Greece is not oppressed, Greece lied and stole from the EU for decades and now it has to at least get their basics right so this doesn't repeat itself. Same goes for Italy, Spain and France even. Ludicrous public spending paired with corruption makes almost every place in the EU a dream to live in, compared to what used to be there 25 years ago. But somehow only one country is expected to work for this to stay there. Do you know what happens when they decide to not do it anymore? This post sums up everything wrong with the mainstream German view on EU. "We respected the rules and did everything fine, others are just lazy folks who just want to leech off us." Completely delusional.
Refute it. Or be ironically lazy about it and leave it at that statement.
|
there's no point in trying to refute kindergarden logic(clearing up a/your stance will be more beneficial for the sake of all involved): The ungratefulness is just mind-boggling. Yea, of course Germany cares how your country, whichever it is, is doing. If you rely on exporting all your shit, you want other countries to be doing well, otherwise you'd have to sell for cheap. how would your logic change when/after you find out that a country doesn't want to buy your shit at all?. how would your care-meter change?.
|
On June 23 2018 19:10 xM(Z wrote:there's no point in trying to refute kindergarden logic(clearing up a/your stance will be more beneficial for the sake of all involved): Show nested quote +The ungratefulness is just mind-boggling. Yea, of course Germany cares how your country, whichever it is, is doing. If you rely on exporting all your shit, you want other countries to be doing well, otherwise you'd have to sell for cheap. how would your logic change when/after you find out that a country doesn't want to buy your shit at all?. how would your care-meter change?.
I obviously would not sell to the country. What's your point, there being a country in the EU that doesn't want to buy from Germany anything at all? Do you want to make me laugh or cry? The usual victim-rhetoric of basically being forced into buying from Germany? You are not. You can buy from wherever you want. It's just that the very EU makes it possible for you to buy and sell without any hassles and get quality products all the while. Sure, go to China, make friends with them and you will only have to give up about everything from taxation to intellectual property rights. Or make business with the US without having the EU at your back, how's that gonna turn out?
Accusing me of kindergarden logic while suggesting there's a country out there that doesn't want to buy from Germany, good one. Who's really delusional here? I'm just telling you, listening to your own populists will only make populists in Germany stronger, which in the end will end - without a single doubt in my and every other politically educated persons mind - with a real show of force, e.g. the stuff Trump does. You want to re-negotiate trade deals within the EU with a Germany that's lead by ultrapatriotic populists? Your own populists wouldn't mind for sure, as they don't necessarily want your country to succeed, but rather their friends, lovers and associates. You can ride on your national pride forever and ignore the fact you're in a weaker position, or you can try to put it aside and vote for people who are in favor of working together instead of against each other. You and that sensitive French guy get up in arms thinking I somehow was supporting the idea of a dominant Germany, one to rule them all and forever. I'm not. I support the idea of taking responsiblity that comes with overwhelmingly more beneficial policies all designed to pull countries out of the very gutter the Russians left (and my grandparents were responsible for in the first place). Is this a concept foreign to the values in your country? Your own fucking problem, take care of it. Don't expect others to make up for it.
Counter-question: Do you care at all what's happening inside Germany? I highly doubt so, even if in reality it should probably worry you a lot more than what's happening with your own politics. But I'm sure, when it comes to crime statistics and the proportion of migrants in it you know a lot. Is it because your politicians and media have only that to talk about, while they try to hide from you it being their own incompetence and greed that's holding you back? Now that EU funds can only improve quality of life marginally anymore, you cry for more and at the same time you refuse to take some weight. How's that even supposed to be fair? How long do you think this will go with the German public, when my own very tame opinion is already viewed as offensive to you? I'm not even particularly patriotic, so I guess you'll have to wait and see for the uglies to come out where they've been hiding for the past 70yrs. What happened 2015 resulted out of German guilt and I highly doubt it'll repeat itself, so in the future we will have an actual battle about who's going to take in how many and this time the German public and by them German politics will not be so nice and take everyone so your people can enjoy EU moneys all for themselves.
Allow me to ask you to go through the following very simple theory with me: In 2020 another 2mio Africans and Arabs are stranded on the islands of Greece and Italy. They will take the same routes others did before. Just now, Germany closes its borders entirely which would make travel to Scandinavia, the one other most desired destination, pretty difficult. Merkel has resigned under public pressure, AfD is in power (a likely prospect even in these days for another guy who's crying a lot about Germany in this thread). "They don't respect Dublin II, so we don't respect free travel" is what they tell the German public and close off borders for Eastern Europeans in the process since the chance is high in the back of that Mercedes Vito with the Romanian plate are 20 illegals and you can't possibly check every Vito from Romania, I mean there are thousands of them daily. No more moneys from fellow Romanians working in crop and construction as well. Would you like that? I guess not. Does it sound unlikely? Highly, as of right now. Continue the political shitshow, try to act up like England while spreading lies about what the EU does and does not do for you, depict Merkel as Hitler, cry about unfairness while reaping benefits and you will turn a good part of the German public against you, which in turn will make way for the same kind of demagogues who are threatening stability and security all over Europe these days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
