EPTGaza war 2014 - Page 94
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28924 Posts
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On August 04 2014 05:47 soon.Cloak wrote: Just the opposite. If Israel killed 80% children, then I would agree that saying "Well we could have done 90%" is wrong. But if it was 20%, while the population had 50%, that shows there was significant effort put into minimizing needless death of children. Or, I'll put it this way. Multiple people earlier in this thread have argued that Israel is just as indiscriminate, or close to as indiscriminate, as Hamas. This is a valuable statistic that shows the opposite is true. Past 5 years: Palestinians have killed 6 children 5 women. This out of a total of 42 killed by palestinians, including 28 israeli civilians, 10 idf, and 4 foreign nationals. So 6/42 = ~14.3% children In the same period of time (jan 2009 - may 2014), Israeli security forces killed 565 palestinians, including 84 children. so 84/565 = 14.8% children. So the "only 20%" argument is both worse than Hamas and worse than the IDF's track record in the past 5 years. Edit: to clarify these are all just the peacetime statistics between after Operation Cast Lead and before Operation Protective Edge. Statistics dealing with the current conflict are far more condemning for Israel as Hamas is largely killing IDF. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28924 Posts
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads). I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force. I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas. But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here. | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas. But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here. How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do? Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves? Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year. | ||
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:09 Liquid`Drone wrote: how does any statistic over casualties show that Israel is showing more restraint than Hamas? Israel kills between 70 and 80% civilians, 20% children. Hamas kills between 5 and 6% civilians, and certainly not more children? I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate, but there aren't any statistics in Israel's favor here. War isn't about statistics, it's about the outcome you desire. It's unfortunate that kids have to die when you defend yourself in war against a weaker opponent, but it's just how it is. We really need a one state solution to end this well. | ||
Koorb
France266 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:09 Liquid`Drone wrote: how does any statistic over casualties show that Israel is showing more restraint than Hamas? Israel kills between 70 and 80% civilians, 20% children. Hamas kills between 5 and 6% civilians, and certainly not more children? I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate, but there aren't any statistics in Israel's favor here. This has to be the most stupid and the most biased argument I've read so far. How is Hamas showing any kind of restraint when their main modus operandi consists in launching unguided rockets in the general direction of urban areas, and fails to inflict significant human losses only because Israel has invested a tremendous amount of money and energy in creating an adequate countermeasure?? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28924 Posts
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
There are people dying. Families loosing loved ones on both sides. The injustice of one does not permit the injustice of another. It only shows the senseless killing in a senseless war, were both sides are wrong and guilty and the families and people on both sides have to suffer. The question can not be on who has the moral high ground here when they are all standing in the mud throwing dirt. Ask the Israeli mother whose child has been abducted and killed about her loss and then ask the Palestinian mother whose child has been ripped apart by a grenade about her loss. And then I ask you to measure their loss. You can not. The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:38 Wolfstan wrote: War isn't about statistics, it's about the outcome you desire. It's unfortunate that kids have to die when you defend yourself in war against a weaker opponent, but it's just how it is. We really need a one state solution to end this well. No, it's really not "how it is", and it's absolutely disgusting that you said that. | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: I do not understand this discussion going on here. There are people dying. Families loosing loved ones on both sides. The injustice of one does not permit the injustice of another. It only shows the senseless killing in a senseless war, were both sides are wrong and guilty and the families and people on both sides have to suffer. The question can not be on who has the moral high ground here when they are all standing in the mud throwing dirt. Ask the Israeli mother whose child has been abducted and killed about her loss and then ask the Palestinian mother whose child has been ripped apart by a grenade about her loss. And then I ask you to measure their loss. You can not. The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer. You are playing the equivalent role of a dude on the side of the street holding a sign that says, "Give peace a chance.". It's a nice thought but the holding of the sign doesn't actually do anything. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28924 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: I do not understand this discussion going on here. There are people dying. Families loosing loved ones on both sides. The injustice of one does not permit the injustice of another. It only shows the senseless killing in a senseless war, were both sides are wrong and guilty and the families and people on both sides have to suffer. The question can not be on who has the moral high ground here when they are all standing in the mud throwing dirt. Ask the Israeli mother whose child has been abducted and killed about her loss and then ask the Palestinian mother whose child has been ripped apart by a grenade about her loss. And then I ask you to measure their loss. You can not. The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer. You're coming from the right place, and I agree with you, establishing moral high ground or who suffers more or whatever is irrelevant to what is important right now, that is ending the current warfare. But it actually is relevant for the aftermath. And while I have no doubt that the suffering of the Israeli mother who loses her child is equal to that of the Palestinian mother who suffers the same fate.. it's just, there are just so many more on the Palestinian side. even regarding Israeli soldiers as innocents (and I actually think that is perfectly fair- especially with conscription), even if you somehow decide to regard Israeli soldiers as innocents but Palestinian soldiers as guilty, there's a 20:1 difference in innocent death counts. But anyway, Israel knows the importance of looking good. This is why they're so heavily invested in it. That's why they hire people to post on forums. That's why they claim to be reducing civilian casualties as much as they can. And that's why I'm posting as well, because for Israel to continue blockading, to continue occupying, to continue oppressing the Palestinian people, to continue launching military offensives every 5 years that kill 1000 civilians as retaliation for a single digit number of dead Israeli civilians, they depend on the support of the international community, because Israel is a small country surrounded by enemies, and I want Israel to stop doing all those things I just mentioned. Even though stopping the bloodshed and suffering is the immediate priority, we also need to find a long term solution. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
On August 04 2014 07:07 farvacola wrote: You are playing the equivalent role of a dude on the side of the street holding a sign that says, "Give peace a chance.". It's a nice thought but the holding of the sign doesn't actually do anything. Mayhaps, but does the rest of all the postings here stand a chance of changing the situation? Will any post here change anything? It is very unlikely. I just want to give voice to the one who are suffering because in my opinion they are the ones who truly matter. People tend to abstract war, to play their number games, to claim the moral high ground of one side and condemn the other. It is the stories of the people who suffer and fear and loose loved ones. It is the story of victims and the story of perpetrators. It is the story of a mother loosing its child. It is the story of an Israeli soldier who can't sleep at night anymore because of the things he witnessed. But what people forget or tend to ignore is that war is a collection of individual fates. And if there are enough signs and voices who long for peace, peace can be achieved. And it is our duty to not forget the individuals, the people, the faces and stories behind this word Gaza conflict. | ||
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Koorb
France266 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians. And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers. Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all. On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer. Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28924 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: I do not understand this discussion going on here. There are people dying. Families loosing loved ones on both sides. The injustice of one does not permit the injustice of another. It only shows the senseless killing in a senseless war, were both sides are wrong and guilty and the families and people on both sides have to suffer. The question can not be on who has the moral high ground here when they are all standing in the mud throwing dirt. Ask the Israeli mother whose child has been abducted and killed about her loss and then ask the Palestinian mother whose child has been ripped apart by a grenade about her loss. And then I ask you to measure their loss. You can not. The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer. Yeah. I wanna call you out for being naive, but you're right here. Either side could stop this. The vast majority of civilians want it to stop, but it's not in their leaders' interests. But yes, Israel could have finished this if they had treated the West Bank well during the schism, halting settlement construction, demanding a racism-free PA media/education, and moving toward PA statehood in the UN and on the ground. The Palestinians could finish this at any time by going all MLK/Ghandhi on Israel's asses. How long would US support for the occupation endure if the Palestinians switched to mass non-violence? Israel would give them a state or become utterly friendless in short order. But Likkud doesn't want peace: they want power over their neighbors and the ability to expand their state without enfranchising its residents. And Hamas certainly doesn't want peace: what does a militant group do when the war is over? Get jobs as grocery clerks? | ||
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DrCooper
Germany261 Posts
On August 04 2014 06:37 tokicheese wrote: How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do? Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves? Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year. Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw. On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote: Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all. Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess. Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable? | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On August 04 2014 08:02 DrCooper wrote: Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw. Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable? Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit. It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing... | ||
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