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Norway28892 Posts
On August 03 2014 23:32 soon.Cloak wrote:
@Liquid'Drone
We can argue about what's considered "close" or not, but in any event, the point of that example was to show that just because Hamas has a lower ratio of civilians to military killed, does not mean that they are the more moral army.
Edit:Did you just edit a post without having the little edit thing appear...?
I actually deleted my post and then I made a new one because that would take much less time than figuring out which quotes to remove. ;p
And no I'm not trying to make some 'who is more moral Israel or hamas' argument because it's irrelevant to my critique of Israel whether they are slightly more moral than a terrorist organization. Israel is rightfully judged by a different standard.
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On August 03 2014 23:30 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +No, it's way off, because the 1400 Palestinians are not 99.9% civilian, like in that example. No, it's only like 75-80% civilian, so like 1100-1200. But the 1400 number was from 2 days ago anyway, wouldn't be surprised if it has risen to 1600+ so the civilian counts are probably approaching that anyway. Meanwhile Israeli casualties are something like what, 6% of total death counts?
According to a story on ABC (Australia), the number of dead palestineans total is up to 1669 (unknown civilians) and the number of dead israeli are about 67 (4 civilians).
ABC Australia
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On August 03 2014 23:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 23:32 soon.Cloak wrote:
@Liquid'Drone
We can argue about what's considered "close" or not, but in any event, the point of that example was to show that just because Hamas has a lower ratio of civilians to military killed, does not mean that they are the more moral army.
Edit:Did you just edit a post without having the little edit thing appear...? I actually deleted my post and then I made a new one because that would take much less time than figuring out which quotes to remove. ;p And no I'm not trying to make some 'who is more moral Israel or hamas' argument because it's irrelevant to my critique of Israel whether they are slightly more moral than a terrorist organization. Israel is rightfully judged by a different standard.
Magical...
Ya, and I'll agree with that second part.
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France266 Posts
On August 03 2014 22:52 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 22:25 Koorb wrote:On August 03 2014 20:36 radiatoren wrote:On August 03 2014 19:33 Noam wrote:
What is the virtue of a proportional response - why is it good? [...] The lack of proportionality is getting a lot of negative attention from other countries in the world and even USA has been very hesitant in their comments of support. If Israel keeps doing what appears to be disproportional she may find herself a lot more isolated in the world. At the same time dead civilians will cause some very strong propagandistic pictures for arabic and particularly palestinean media to anger people against Israel. If a person sees no advantage to staying civilian and staying passive since the Israeli attacks hit so many civilians, joining Hamas can be seen as an advantage. The advantage of "disproportional" response would be if they were more targeted at Hamas, thereby creating a fear of joining Hamas in the first place. The US officials have made themselves look hesitant in their public comments, but make no mistake, they are fully backing Israel. The US Senate unanimously approved extra funding for Iron Dome a few days ago. As to the to the risk of arab medias taking advantage of the Israeli strikes to set up a propagandistic agenda, don't worry, it's not like they need any kind of actual facts to achieve this goal anyway, they usually make do with made-up tales, fearmongering and common prejudice. As a Dane, you should be familiar with that; bear in mind that the massive anti-Denmark protest in the muslim world after the Jyllands-Posten's caricatures of Muhammad in 2005 didn't start right after the publication of the cartoons, but after a delegation of Danish imams traveled in middle-east countries and presented them with a summary of the article smeared with false informations (pictures unrelated to the Jyllands-Posten article, derogatory statements about the Danish society...) which was reported as-is by islamic medias. Yeah, but at the same time one of the people responsible for the tour has changed his mind after experiencing arguments from both sides. He is actively working against extremism today and has become a target of the domestic religious extremists hatred. The example actually shows that the problem is more of a domestic problem than a problem with a religion/region.
I'm glad to hear that at least one of them has changed his mind, but I still disagree that this issue is not predominantly related to the middle-east (and maghrebi) cultures. It is common place in the arab and muslim world to rely on prejudice to judge foreign cultures/people, and to believe in conspiracy theories as long as they smear the west in general and Israel in particular.
On August 03 2014 22:52 radiatoren wrote:
As for US opinion, the Iron Dome is specifically constructed as a defensive system to avoid civilian casualties on the israeli side. It is not really relevant to extrapolate opinions from. When that is said, several of the US politicians would never even think about criticising Israel if they used a couple of atomic bombs against Gaza. The change this time is that the civilian casualties are starting to effect the US public opinion to a larger degree than before. As strong as the pro-israeli stance is in US politics it will be harder to maintain if the public is that strongly against it.
I honestly don't know what the public opinion is in the US, and if the American citizens are indeed getting increasingly uneasy with Israel's policies, but I'm not convinced that even if they did massively embrace the Palestinian cause, the US government's support for Israel would dwindle. The public opinion has little influence on any developed nation's foreign policies (if it did, then the United Kingdom would have stayed well away from Iraq, and there wouldn't have been a western intervention in the Lybian civil war). It is especially true in the US, where lawmakers are literally bought and paid for by the highest bidders, whom in this country are more likely to support Israel than the Arabs.
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^ US public opinion favors Israel CNN poll People realize that if the USA had two thirds of its population in bomb shelters, the reaction would be A LOT harsher than the way Israel is reacting.
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On August 04 2014 01:23 Thor.Rush wrote:^ US public opinion favors Israel CNN poll People realize that if the USA had two thirds of its population in bomb shelters, the reaction would be A LOT harsher than the way Israel is reacting.
few more months and you're done
The survey indicates that 38% have an unfavorable opinion of Israel, up 14 percentage points from February.
but anyway, 38% with the amount of pro Israel propaganda they have there is a lot. i'd be worried.
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What propaganda is that, and how is it that you, a Romanian, can have any sort of idea as to how it is recieved?
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i'll just assume that was a rhetorical question ...
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On August 04 2014 01:23 Thor.Rush wrote:^ US public opinion favors Israel CNN poll People realize that if the USA had two thirds of its population in bomb shelters, the reaction would be A LOT harsher than the way Israel is reacting.
So people in US are able to feel and understand jewish people inside bomb shelters but cannot get their minds around massive slaughter in concentration camps like Gaza.
I want to believe that it's just a result of arranged polls and good old propaganda.
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On August 04 2014 02:00 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 01:23 Thor.Rush wrote:^ US public opinion favors Israel CNN poll People realize that if the USA had two thirds of its population in bomb shelters, the reaction would be A LOT harsher than the way Israel is reacting. So people in US are able to feel and understand jewish people inside bomb shelters but cannot get their minds around massive slaughter in concentration camps like Gaza. I want to believe that it's just a result of arranged polls and good old propaganda.
It's actually a pretty significant negative shift in opinion when taken in context-- the negative view has actually close to tripled since the beginning of the conflict.
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On August 04 2014 01:40 xM(Z wrote:
i'll just assume that was a rhetorical question ...
Its not There isn't any Isreal propaganda here and you have no way of knowing that there is any. You're just assumeing that there is beacuse the nation disagrees with your nation about it.
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On August 04 2014 02:17 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 01:40 xM(Z wrote:
i'll just assume that was a rhetorical question ... Its not There isn't any Isreal propaganda here and you have no way of knowing that there is any. You're just assumeing that there is beacuse the nation disagrees with your nation about it.
Israel propaganda is everywhere. Just follow IDF informations and see how all of their comments are taken by every media. It is not so much that media are pro Israeli and more than modern journalism is all about circulating information, so that the simple fact that IDF makes so much comment and release so much information, give them a huge light in the media.
Look at the language used to describe the conflict and compare it to the one used by the IDF (they "arrested" palestinian in the west bank, and not "abducted" as the palestinian authority described it, they "kidnapped" a soldier and not "captured", they are "defending" Israel for their "security"...).
About the US and Israel, there are interesting books on the subject, especially on the rising distance between the jewish community in the US and Israel. It seems, for many people, that the increasing inequalities / conservative policies / war blunder from Israel is creating a huge split between them and the american jewish community because this community is very liberal (for exemple, they were fiercely against the war in iraq, while Israel was fiercely for this war).
On August 03 2014 22:25 Koorb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 19:57 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'm really really surprised that the UN is happy for Israel to keep bombing its facilities without actually doing anything about it.
Don't they know how bad it makes them look to keep allowing it? The UN is walking on thin ice on this issue. The UNRWA had to admit three times during the last two weeks that they had found Hamas' rockets stored in their facilities in Gaza, and it seems that in at least one occasion they handed back these weapons to Hamas. The IDF also claims that they witnessed rockets being launched from others buildings belonging to the UNRWA. For the UN, staging a strong protest against the Israeli bombing of its Gaza facilities would expose the UNRWA shady double-dealing and cast a shadow over the neutrality of this agency, which is something they really can't afford to happen. Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 20:36 radiatoren wrote:On August 03 2014 19:33 Noam wrote:
What is the virtue of a proportional response - why is it good? [...] The lack of proportionality is getting a lot of negative attention from other countries in the world and even USA has been very hesitant in their comments of support. If Israel keeps doing what appears to be disproportional she may find herself a lot more isolated in the world. At the same time dead civilians will cause some very strong propagandistic pictures for arabic and particularly palestinean media to anger people against Israel. If a person sees no advantage to staying civilian and staying passive since the Israeli attacks hit so many civilians, joining Hamas can be seen as an advantage. The advantage of "disproportional" response would be if they were more targeted at Hamas, thereby creating a fear of joining Hamas in the first place. The US officials have made themselves look hesitant in their public comments, but make no mistake, they are fully backing Israel. The US Senate unanimously approved extra funding for Iron Dome a few days ago. As to the to the risk of arab medias taking advantage of the Israeli strikes to set up a propagandistic agenda, don't worry, it's not like they need any kind of actual facts to achieve this goal anyway, they usually make do with made-up tales, fearmongering and common prejudice. As a Dane, you should be familiar with that; bear in mind that the massive anti-Denmark protest in the muslim world after the Jyllands-Posten's caricatures of Muhammad in 2005 didn't start right after the publication of the cartoons, but after a delegation of Danish imams traveled in middle-east countries and presented them with a summary of the article smeared with false informations (pictures unrelated to the Jyllands-Posten article, derogatory statements about the Danish society...) which was reported as-is by islamic medias.
Only on Israel one can discuss the neutrality of the UN. Nobody ever do that for any other conflict in the world - while they are most of the time biased toward someone. This situation of exception in itself is one of the reasons as to why Israel has a terrible image in the world (the most negative image after north korea if I reckon).
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Norway28892 Posts
On August 04 2014 02:17 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 01:40 xM(Z wrote:
i'll just assume that was a rhetorical question ... Its not There isn't any Isreal propaganda here and you have no way of knowing that there is any. You're just assumeing that there is beacuse the nation disagrees with your nation about it.
which would logically indicate that there's a huge divide regarding the information about the war. Either that, or there's simply something about American culture/history that makes them more likely to side with a colonial power's exploitation and dehumanizing treatment of another people than what the case is for Europe. Which, historically, does not make sense.
There's no doubt about there being pro-Israel propaganda in the US. Just like there's no doubt about there being pro-palestine propaganda in Europe. Well, basically there's pro-both sides propaganda everywhere, but the pro-Israel side has a foothold in American media whereas the pro-Palestine side has a foothold in Europe. Personally, I don't know who or what to trust regarding what is happening right now, but civilian death counts don't seem to be contested even by the Israeli side and frankly they tell me everything I need to know to know who to sympathize with, and virtually every Norwegian I've talked to who has actually been to Israel describes it as an apartheid regime, meaning that I have information I trust in that regard as well. 
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From the last time Israel did this in 2009:
The Immigrant Absorption Ministry announced on Sunday it was setting up an "army of bloggers," to be made up of Israelis who speak a second language, to represent Israel in "anti-Zionist blogs" in English, French, Spanish and German.
The program's first volunteer was Sandrine Pitousi, 31, from Kfar Maimon, situated five kilometers from Gaza. "I heard about the project over the radio and decided to join because I'm living in the middle of the conflict," she said.
Before hanging up the phone prematurely following a Color Red rocket alert, Pitousi, who immigrated to Israel from France in 1993, said she had some experience with public relations from managing a production company.
"During the war, we looked for a way to contribute to the effort," the ministry's director general, Erez Halfon, told Haaretz. "We turned to this enormous reservoir of more than a million people with a second mother tongue." Other languages in which bloggers are sought include Russian and Portuguese.
Halfon said volunteers who send the Absorption Ministry their contact details by e-mail, at media@moia.gov.il, will be registered according to language, and then passed on to the Foreign Ministry's media department, whose personnel will direct the volunteers to Web sites deemed "problematic."
Within 30 minutes of announcing the program, which was approved by the Foreign Ministry on Sunday, five volunteers were already in touch, Halfon said
Source
World governments are still patient with Israel's justified operation in Gaza. The [sic] public opinion, on the other hand, is impatient, to say the least. This gap will soon close – it always does.
It is our goal to shift the public opinion, as conveyed in the internet; avoiding, or at least minimising, sanctions by world leaders. We need to buy the IDF enough time to achieve its goals.
Source
Israel's continued efforts to invest in Hasbara rather than invest in human lives is one of the reasons why this piece has resonated with me so strongly. As a secular jew in the United States with one side of the family having escaped from soviet Hungary in the 70s, it is absolutely terrifying to hear that Israel is doing all of the things that the Soviets did (kidnappings, assassinations, torture, disappearing of people who can influence public opinions, preventing movement in and out of the country) that my father and grandparents feared under the Iron curtain.
On top of this Israel has assumed the Nazi doctrine of ethnic supremacy in all but name. Gaza cannot be defined as anything other than an internment/concentration camp, and Palestinians in the West Bank are all but forced to wear gold stars. Add to this the monumental amount of institutionalized violence against Palestinians and their property and you have a situation that frightens me to the very core.
I am scared that Israel is content to repeat this cycle every few years, and I can hazard a guess as to the reason. If Israel can stay in a perpetual state of 'war' with the Palestinians, then it will not have to deal with any domestic movements to liberate them. Thus the massive effort to characterize Israel as the victim when they are the Goliath to Palestine's David. In this thread there are many who ask the questions
"Isn't it reasonable to kill civilians because of the actions of their army?"
"But isn't it reasonable to bomb a city block if you (allegedly) (attempt to) give them a brief notice?"
"But doesn't Israel have a right to defend itself?"
"But isn't Israel better than Hamas?"
And various other questions which attempt to distract from the fact that Israel has caused far more terror on a far wider scale than Hamas could ever dream of. You cannot justify your own murders by pointing to someone else's. You cannot exonerate a school bomber of his actions because he was 'nice enough' to send in bomb threats. You cannot be 'defending' yourself against someone you have beaten for 70 years and then backed into a corner. And you cannot claim that Israel's government is better than Palestine's. They both start meaningless wars and kill civilians in a war over public opinion; Israel simply does it better.
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Hopefully Israel can win this quickly. The longer the fighting lasts, the longer it will take to rebuild the battlefield.
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On August 04 2014 02:33 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +The Immigrant Absorption Ministry announced on Sunday it was setting up an "army of bloggers," to be made up of Israelis who speak a second language, to represent Israel in "anti-Zionist blogs" in English, French, Spanish and German.
The program's first volunteer was Sandrine Pitousi, 31, from Kfar Maimon, situated five kilometers from Gaza. "I heard about the project over the radio and decided to join because I'm living in the middle of the conflict," she said.
Before hanging up the phone prematurely following a Color Red rocket alert, Pitousi, who immigrated to Israel from France in 1993, said she had some experience with public relations from managing a production company.
"During the war, we looked for a way to contribute to the effort," the ministry's director general, Erez Halfon, told Haaretz. "We turned to this enormous reservoir of more than a million people with a second mother tongue." Other languages in which bloggers are sought include Russian and Portuguese.
Halfon said volunteers who send the Absorption Ministry their contact details by e-mail, at media@moia.gov.il, will be registered according to language, and then passed on to the Foreign Ministry's media department, whose personnel will direct the volunteers to Web sites deemed "problematic."
Within 30 minutes of announcing the program, which was approved by the Foreign Ministry on Sunday, five volunteers were already in touch, Halfon said SourceShow nested quote +World governments are still patient with Israel's justified operation in Gaza. The [sic] public opinion, on the other hand, is impatient, to say the least. This gap will soon close – it always does.
It is our goal to shift the public opinion, as conveyed in the internet; avoiding, or at least minimising, sanctions by world leaders. We need to buy the IDF enough time to achieve its goals. SourceIsrael's continued efforts to invest in Hasbara rather than invest in human lives is one of the reasons why this piece has resonated with me so strongly. As a secular jew in the United States with one side of the family having escaped from soviet Hungary in the 70s, it is absolutely terrifying to hear that Israel is doing all of the things that the Soviets did (kidnappings, assassinations, torture, disappearing of people who can influence public opinions, preventing movement in and out of the country) that my father and grandparents feared under the Iron curtain. On top of this Israel has assumed the Nazi doctrine of ethnic supremacy in all but name. Gaza cannot be defined as anything other than an internment/concentration camp, and Palestinians in the West Bank are all but forced to wear gold stars. Add to this the monumental amount of institutionalized violence against Palestinians and their property and you have a situation that frightens me to the very core. I am scared that Israel is content to repeat this cycle every few years, and I can hazard a guess as to the reason. If Israel can stay in a perpetual state of 'war' with the Palestinians, then it will not have to deal with any domestic movements to liberate them. Thus the massive effort to characterize Israel as the victim when they are the Goliath to Palestine's David. In this thread there are many who ask the questions "Isn't it reasonable to kill civilians because of the actions of their army?"
"But isn't it reasonable to bomb a city block if you (allegedly) (attempt to) give them a brief notice?"
"But doesn't Israel have a right to defend itself?"
"But isn't Israel better than Hamas?"And various other questions which attempt to distract from the fact that Israel has caused far more terror on a far wider scale than Hamas could ever dream of. You cannot justify your own murders by pointing to someone else's. You cannot exonerate a school bomber of his actions because he was 'nice enough' to send in bomb threats. You cannot be 'defending' yourself against someone you have beaten for 70 years and then backed into a corner. And you cannot claim that Israel's government is better than Palestine's. They both start meaningless wars and kill civilians in a war over public opinion; Israel simply does it better.
That's funny because when you hear Netanyahu or another Israeli high official talking, his arguments are basically the same that every body pro israeli give :
- what would YOU do if you received rockets ?
- but hamas is a terrible organization, we are fighting for you !
- we want peace, but not hamas !
- you see the numbers, they are terrible, but hamas is using human shield !
- the IDF is the most moral army in the world
- the palestinians could have had peace in 1967 but they refused it !
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On August 03 2014 18:45 Bulugulu wrote:
Regarding Israels policy with un-proportional retaliation which it has used in the past as well:
The concept in israeli society and especially within military ranks and the political right is that disproportionate retaliation creates greater deterrence for your enemies. Imagine a poker player getting allined every time he raises, he'll be less likely to raise as a result.
While this approach may have been adequate for the earlier wars where Israel was in fact in existential jeopardy whenever a war was declared (being far outnumbered both in soldiers and attacking countries), this situation is completely different.
However the military ranks and the right still employ the same thinking as regards to this notion as well as some others.
One of the main criticism in the Israeli media nowadays is that this war failed to create deterrence.
This is called the Dahiya doctrine; it was put forward by an Israeli general. See here.
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The Immigrant Absorption Ministry announced on Sunday it was setting up an "army of bloggers," to be made up of Israelis who speak a second language, to represent Israel in "anti-Zionist blogs" in English, French, Spanish and German.
The program's first volunteer was Sandrine Pitousi, 31, from Kfar Maimon, situated five kilometers from Gaza. "I heard about the project over the radio and decided to join because I'm living in the middle of the conflict," she said.
Before hanging up the phone prematurely following a Color Red rocket alert, Pitousi, who immigrated to Israel from France in 1993, said she had some experience with public relations from managing a production company.
"During the war, we looked for a way to contribute to the effort," the ministry's director general, Erez Halfon, told Haaretz. "We turned to this enormous reservoir of more than a million people with a second mother tongue." Other languages in which bloggers are sought include Russian and Portuguese.
Halfon said volunteers who send the Absorption Ministry their contact details by e-mail, at media@moia.gov.il, will be registered according to language, and then passed on to the Foreign Ministry's media department, whose personnel will direct the volunteers to Web sites deemed "problematic."
Within 30 minutes of announcing the program, which was approved by the Foreign Ministry on Sunday, five volunteers were already in touch, Halfon said
Could mods clarify whether this would be banworthy on TL?
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On August 04 2014 02:33 Jormundr wrote:Israel's continued efforts to invest in Hasbara rather than invest in human lives is one of the reasons why this piece has resonated with me so strongly. As a secular jew in the United States with one side of the family having escaped from soviet Hungary in the 70s, it is absolutely terrifying to hear that Israel is doing all of the things that the Soviets did (kidnappings, assassinations, torture, disappearing of people who can influence public opinions, preventing movement in and out of the country) that my father and grandparents feared under the Iron curtain.
don't forget pre-emptively blaming the persecuted for crimes as an excuse to incite violence against them (the fixer - malamud is fresh on my mind, russian empire, not the soviet union, but same time-honored tradition).
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On August 04 2014 02:44 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +The Immigrant Absorption Ministry announced on Sunday it was setting up an "army of bloggers," to be made up of Israelis who speak a second language, to represent Israel in "anti-Zionist blogs" in English, French, Spanish and German.
The program's first volunteer was Sandrine Pitousi, 31, from Kfar Maimon, situated five kilometers from Gaza. "I heard about the project over the radio and decided to join because I'm living in the middle of the conflict," she said.
Before hanging up the phone prematurely following a Color Red rocket alert, Pitousi, who immigrated to Israel from France in 1993, said she had some experience with public relations from managing a production company.
"During the war, we looked for a way to contribute to the effort," the ministry's director general, Erez Halfon, told Haaretz. "We turned to this enormous reservoir of more than a million people with a second mother tongue." Other languages in which bloggers are sought include Russian and Portuguese.
Halfon said volunteers who send the Absorption Ministry their contact details by e-mail, at media@moia.gov.il, will be registered according to language, and then passed on to the Foreign Ministry's media department, whose personnel will direct the volunteers to Web sites deemed "problematic."
Within 30 minutes of announcing the program, which was approved by the Foreign Ministry on Sunday, five volunteers were already in touch, Halfon said Could mods clarify whether this would be banworthy on TL?
1. Probably not
2. Unprovable
3. It's nowhere near as bad here as it was in the Ukraine Crisis thread. Though nunez probably wasn't paid, he definitely deserved to be salaried. Honestly now that I think of it cheerio probably deserved to be employed by the SBU,
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EPT
