On August 04 2014 21:36 zlefin wrote: One of the basic questions is whether you apply the standards of Warfare to the casualty rates; or policing (wherein civilian casualties are much lower). I'd apply the warfare standards; as they seem more applicable to foes of this nature.
Probably something in-between, like American policing?
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw.
It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
On August 04 2014 06:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: [quote]
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
they're labeled terrorists because they are terrorists (hamas). If they went full Gandhi active non-violent resistance they'd win in 10 years.
On August 04 2014 06:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: [quote]
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
No, because in the end they are going to lose. It was always a losing fight and they should have been up forever ago. There was a time when everyone lived together and the majority of both populations got along. There was a time when Jews drove down to Gaza and bought food there and went back home with zero violence. There was a time when it seemed like both sides could get along and maybe forget about all of this over time.
The current Israel govt definitely wouldn't be able to cope with a full Gandhi Palestine, but it wouldn't happen, and it's understandable why. I'm just sad because I can sympathise with both sides' motives, it's just the way they go about it. Hamas' terrorism and Israel's use of disproportionate force/settlements in WB.
The thing is, it probably would be better that one side won outright and everything can start from a clean slate, rather than let this conflict drag out and cause more suffering. For people saying that dragging it out would mean Palestine winning a PR war, please, don't be so naive to think that would solve the situation. Strengthen Israel's far right and things would get a lot more dangerous.
On August 04 2014 06:37 tokicheese wrote: [quote] How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote: [quote]
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
[quote]
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
they're labeled terrorists because they are terrorists (hamas). If they went full Gandhi active non-violent resistance they'd win in 10 years.
yup, I agree with that. If they'd not shoot a single rocket on Israel or send a single suicide bomber for some time (and continue to do so), the international pressure (if even needed) on Israel would open the borders.
As it stands, most of the Western world is currently heavily critizising Israel for the proportion of taken actions. But for as long as there is an ongoing aggression from the Hamas, not a single of those countries will deny Israel the right to take offensive measures against terrorism in Gaza/Palestine.
On August 04 2014 08:02 DrCooper wrote: [quote] Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw. [quote] Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
they're labeled terrorists because they are terrorists (hamas). If they went full Gandhi active non-violent resistance they'd win in 10 years.
yup, I agree with that. If they'd not shoot a single rocket on Israel or send a single suicide bomber for some time (and continue to do so), the international pressure (if even needed) on Israel would open the borders.
As it stands, most of the Western world is currently heavily critizising Israel for the proportion of taken actions. But for as long as there is an ongoing aggression from the Hamas, not a single of those countries will deny Israel the right to take offensive measures against terrorism in Gaza/Palestine.
But you need a leader who is committed to the non-violent route of protest that won't be killed by the people who are pro-violence on the same side, because that would be a thing. But in theory, I fully support of world of non-violent Palestinian protest.
On August 04 2014 08:02 DrCooper wrote: [quote] Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw. [quote] Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
they're labeled terrorists because they are terrorists (hamas). If they went full Gandhi active non-violent resistance they'd win in 10 years.
yup, I agree with that. If they'd not shoot a single rocket on Israel or send a single suicide bomber for some time (and continue to do so), the international pressure (if even needed) on Israel would open the borders.
Funny considering Israel still occupies the West Bank.
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
On August 04 2014 22:02 fluidin wrote: The current Israel govt definitely wouldn't be able to cope with a full Gandhi Palestine, but it wouldn't happen, and it's understandable why. I'm just sad because I can sympathise with both sides' motives, it's just the way they go about it. Hamas' terrorism and Israel's use of disproportionate force/settlements in WB.
The thing is, it probably would be better that one side won outright and everything can start from a clean slate, rather than let this conflict drag out and cause more suffering. For people saying that dragging it out would mean Palestine winning a PR war, please, don't be so naive to think that would solve the situation. Strengthen Israel's far right and things would get a lot more dangerous.
I agree. The situation for an average citizen is fucked up. If I was born in Gaza I would have probably become a "terrorist". If I was born in Israel I would probably have joined the IDF. Even if you are against the imperialistic settlement policies of Israel as an Israeli citizen and vote against it, I can understand that you would not just accept living under indiscriminate rocket fire.
On August 04 2014 08:35 tokicheese wrote: [quote] Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
It's true their rockets aren't doing them any good - as in helping them win the war. But can you then suggest what they should be trying? Because after 60 years they ran out of options, their enemies are still funded by some of the world's richest countries and they are still labeled as terrorists by the mainstream media.
they're labeled terrorists because they are terrorists (hamas). If they went full Gandhi active non-violent resistance they'd win in 10 years.
yup, I agree with that. If they'd not shoot a single rocket on Israel or send a single suicide bomber for some time (and continue to do so), the international pressure (if even needed) on Israel would open the borders.
Funny considering Israel still occupies the West Bank.
It look years of non-violent protest for India to gain independence and the full support of the population. That is not the situation right now and has not been for as long as anyone can remember.
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
That is why people are saying that non-violent protest takes years and years. It look years in the US civil rights movement and years in India. And yes, the other side will do bad stuff while it is going on, but the difference is that non-violent protest cannot be responded to with military forces without the entire world freaking out. Israel would have zero support and you can't call non-violent protester terrorists.
Unlike the current route, which is doomed to fail and just get tons of innocent people killed.
This is not war. There is no Palestinian army. There is no Palestinian state. Hamas are terrorists launching attacks at Israel. And Israel has condemned all of Gaza's innocent civilians to die with them as terrorists.
When a bank robber holds people hostage inside a bank SWAT teams are sent in. Sniper units. Highly trained professionals. This is because they want to minimize civilian casualties. Because those civilians are innocent. It's the same thing in Gaza. The hundreds upon hundreds of civilians that Israel is killing through overly aggressive bombardment are completely innocent in this conflict. Shelling entire apartment buildings is NOT an acceptable way to target one Hamas operative.
Israel needs to do more to reduce the INSANE amount of colateral damage that it is inflicting on the Palestinian people. These wounds are irreperable. I have a Palestinian friend who knows someone whose entire family was just killed in a single airstrike. He's an M&A lawyer at a highly regarded Wall Street firm, not a terrorist. How does the world sit quietly and let this happen?
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
That is why people are saying that non-violent protest takes years and years. It look years in the US civil rights movement and years in India. And yes, the other side will do bad stuff while it is going on, but the difference is that non-violent protest cannot be responded to with military forces without the entire world freaking out. Israel would have zero support and you can't call non-violent protester terrorists.
Unlike the current route, which is doomed to fail and just get tons of innocent people killed.
The problem is people only see Gandhi and Luther King, and forget about Malcom X, the black panthers, Chandra Bose or the various armed rebellion in India. Peaceful protest can win, in certain circumstances, but always with the help in the back ground of a possible armed revolution.
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
That is why people are saying that non-violent protest takes years and years. It look years in the US civil rights movement and years in India. And yes, the other side will do bad stuff while it is going on, but the difference is that non-violent protest cannot be responded to with military forces without the entire world freaking out. Israel would have zero support and you can't call non-violent protester terrorists.
Unlike the current route, which is doomed to fail and just get tons of innocent people killed.
Circumstances were different. Britain was broke from fighting 2 World Wars and couldn't hang on to its colonies any longer, which is why the nonviolent protests were effective. The Civil Rights movement in the US was Americans vs. Americans and the demands were simply social rights, not an independent state. Last time anyone in America demanded their own country based on ideological reasons (the confederate states) we went to war with them.
It is both unreasonable and unrealistic to expect everyone in Palestine to put their guns down and wait 20-30 years for Israel to do something when Israel's ruling party doesn't even recognize the right of a Palestinian state to exist.
Its been well documented that Hamas conducts attacks near civilian populations to prevent long range strikes from being used against them. They hope that Israel will send ground troops to stop the missile/mortar attacks. At that time, when the troops are most exposed, Hamas will be able to attack, kill and capture soldiers.
The difference is the Israel is shooting back with long range strikes rather than expose their troops to risk. I could blame Israel, but I choose to blame Hamas because they have chosen not to value their own people’s lives.
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
That is why people are saying that non-violent protest takes years and years. It look years in the US civil rights movement and years in India. And yes, the other side will do bad stuff while it is going on, but the difference is that non-violent protest cannot be responded to with military forces without the entire world freaking out. Israel would have zero support and you can't call non-violent protester terrorists.
Unlike the current route, which is doomed to fail and just get tons of innocent people killed.
Circumstances were different. Britain was broke from fighting 2 World Wars and couldn't hang on to its colonies any longer, which is why the nonviolent protests were effective. The Civil Rights movement in the US was Americans vs. Americans and the demands were simply social rights, not an independent state. Last time anyone in America demanded their own country based on ideological reasons (the confederate states) we went to war with them.
It is both unreasonable and unrealistic to expect everyone in Palestine to put their guns down and wait 20-30 years for Israel to do something when Israel's ruling party doesn't even recognize the right of a Palestinian state to exist.
Yeah, because the current plan of violence and death is working out so well. The simple fact of the matter is that you can't label non-violent protesters as terrorists and you can't deal with them with machine guns.
I am not saying its a perfect solution, but anything is better than the current one where both sides mindlessly justify all this death as "we have no other option."
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
That is why people are saying that non-violent protest takes years and years. It look years in the US civil rights movement and years in India. And yes, the other side will do bad stuff while it is going on, but the difference is that non-violent protest cannot be responded to with military forces without the entire world freaking out. Israel would have zero support and you can't call non-violent protester terrorists.
Unlike the current route, which is doomed to fail and just get tons of innocent people killed.
The problem is people only see Gandhi and Luther King, and forget about Malcom X, the black panthers, Chandra Bose or the various armed rebellion in India. Peaceful protest can win, in certain circumstances, but always with the help in the back ground of a possible armed revolution.
Yes, but the key is that you attempt the non-violent protest, which no one has even tried in this conflict. And all of the leaders like Malcom X said later on that violence would not have solved the problem. You don't lead in with violence, which seems to be the way in the majority of the Middle East.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Why does everyone think that if the Palestinians put their weapons down Israel would suddenly want to make peace and have meaningful discussions with them?
After all, this is a country that since it was established (through Terrorism) has not shown that it is ready to make any concessions at all with regard to a free Palestinian state.
One needs to look no further than the ruling Likud party's own charter to see that a Palestinian state is not something in mind, and that they will not stop until Gaza is fully under their control.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[27]
In fact, why don't we look at what's going on in the West Bank?
Where is the progress on removing the illegal settlements? When is a Palestinian State going to be created? When will the apartheid the Palestinians are living under end? It's clear that Israel has no interest in this.
Nothing I've written condones the action of Hamas... I think firing rockets at Israel is despicable. But Israel continues to use this as an excuse to make no progress towards peace and a Palestinian state even in the West Bank (and in Gaza where 60% of the population opposes Hamas).
That is why people are saying that non-violent protest takes years and years. It look years in the US civil rights movement and years in India. And yes, the other side will do bad stuff while it is going on, but the difference is that non-violent protest cannot be responded to with military forces without the entire world freaking out. Israel would have zero support and you can't call non-violent protester terrorists.
Unlike the current route, which is doomed to fail and just get tons of innocent people killed.
Gandhi's success was the exception to the rule. Just look at Tibet. Also while India was certainly oppressed to a degree, their existence was not threatened. Palestine on the other hand faces an enemy that is currently intent on cleansing their nation out of their own homeland.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
EPT
