On August 04 2014 07:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: But I never claimed that Hamas is using less restraint. I specifically stated that they're launching missiles indiscriminately. I merely made the observation that from the statistics alone you could not possibly conclude that Israel was showing more restraint.
My bad then, I misunderstood your discourse ;-)
On August 04 2014 08:22 Risen wrote: In a world where the United States dropped a nuclear bomb on not one, but two cities. There is precedent for thinking no amount of civilian casualties on the other side are worth "our" side's lives.
It hardly started with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki you know. From the inhabitants of Jersualem being put to the sword by the crusaders in 1099 to the sacks of Baghdad in 1258 or of Constantinople in 1453, or to the the civilians left to starve in mass during the Thirty Years' War (in some German states, the overall population shrunk by 30 % over the course of this war), the colonisation... Holding civilian casualties as an inexcusable sin is a quite recent achievement in the history of mankind.
And the Americans at least had some sort of reasoning behind the nuclear bombings; a full-scale invasion would have claimed much more Japanese lives than Little Boy and Fat Man did.
On August 04 2014 08:35 tokicheese wrote: Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
If Hamas in Qatar what the fuck is Israel doing invading Gaza? What the fuck man.
On August 04 2014 07:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: But I never claimed that Hamas is using less restraint. I specifically stated that they're launching missiles indiscriminately. I merely made the observation that from the statistics alone you could not possibly conclude that Israel was showing more restraint.
On August 04 2014 08:22 Risen wrote: In a world where the United States dropped a nuclear bomb on not one, but two cities. There is precedent for thinking no amount of civilian casualties on the other side are worth "our" side's lives.
It hardly started with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki you know. From the inhabitants of Jersualem being put to the sword by the crusaders in 1099 to the sacks of Baghdad in 1258 or of Constantinople in 1453, or to the the civilians left to starve in mass during the Thirty Years' War (in some German states, the overall population shrunk by 30 % over the course of this war), the colonisation... Holding civilian casualties as an inexcusable sin is a quite recent achievement in the history of mankind.
And the Americans at least had some sort of reasoning behind the nuclear bombings; a full-scale invasion would have claimed much more Japanese lives than Little Boy and Fat Man did.
I understand that there were other factors. In the end the reasoning boils down to "our lives are worth more than theirs". I'm not against the nuclear bombings. I feel like they were necessary to preserve American lives. The Israelis view the civilian casualties as an acceptable loss because to hunt down combatants only would cost many more Israeli lives.
Edit: And I'm aware that it wasn't an American invention. That's simply the most relevant example to a vast majority of people living today.
On August 04 2014 08:35 tokicheese wrote: Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
If Hamas in Qatar what the fuck is Israel doing invading Gaza? What the fuck man.
On August 04 2014 08:35 tokicheese wrote: Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
If Hamas in Qatar what the fuck is Israel doing invading Gaza? What the fuck man.
Stop with your Political correctness BS, Hamas leader hides in Qatar while recruiting jihadists to launch rockets into Isreal, no matter how bad Isreal is, you have no excuse to defend the fking terrorist Hamas, human-shield is inhumane, it's a backward mentality to sacrifice human lives for a piece of land. Yeah let's say Isreal give all the lands back to the Palestinians, what do you think the Islamists gonna turn that place into? I'd rather see Isreal survive then let the whole place ruined by Islamic fundamentalists. Give me a break.
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
This reminds me of an article I read long ago, where someone asks a missile defense system company representative what the fuck he is thinking showing up at their convention, as only the Israelis would ever be interested in such a thing.
The subtext of course is that any country confronted with incompetents shooting rockets at them would probably skip the "missile defense construction" step en route to beating the shit out of the responsible parties.
They seem content sitting in a 5 star resort while Gaza gets ruined because of their policies...
To be honest I want to be on Israel's side. I want to be on the side that is more democratic, less corrupt, has less religious fanatics who blow themselves up, and fewer people willing to kill indiscriminately.
(And actually I am slightly philosemitic because I studied the Jewish contributions to German science and culture in the 19th and early 20th century for a while and I am still fascinated by that.)
But for the life of me, I cannot assign all blame to people who have way less money, way less education and generally way less control over their lives than the other side. How much responsibility for the situation can they have? I just cannot see a justification for Israel's disproportional response to the rocket attacks, no matter how evil Hamas supposedly are.
I remember when I attended a three-day workshop on international law and human rights by the ICRC in Gaza, one of the attendees asked the trainer: "What do I do to be qualified to obtain those human rights?" The trainer replied without much thought: "Nothing. You should be a human, that's all". The question now is, what am I supposed to do/be to be qualified as a human? As far as I can tell, I live like normal humans do. I love, I hate, I cry, I laugh, I make mistakes, I learn, I dream, I hurt, I get hurt, I love pizza...
The only difference is that an occupying nation came from nowhere to claim exclusive ownership of my land on which an endless chain of my ancestors lived, and they started to ethnically cleanse my people.
My only sin is that I stood up and fought for my lost land and for everything that is dear to me.
I obeyed the US and went to elections; I voted for a party which met my expectations. But then I was punished for practicing the very democracy they taught me. I didn't realize that the modern definition of democracy is to elect a party approved by the US, not a party that the majority of voters want.
As a result, I was put under severe blockade and was subject to systematic starvation, locked in a tiny patch of land isolated from the rest of the world for years.
I finished my university degree in that period, studying for my finals by candle light and writing entire research papers by hand. I often spent the long school days without having enough money to buy food because my father, an engineer, had nothing to build with. The world accused me of terrorism just because I refused to be killed like an animal. But, even an animal will fight for its life.
I stood up and fought for what I perceived as my basic rights but what the whole world calls terrorism. My Gaza that has been exhausted by poverty and isolation was also subject to three deadly wars within less than a decade by the Israeli occupation whose forces are armed to the teeth with weapons of mass destruction, paid for by US tax payers.
Tens of my people are being killed on a daily basis and I'm watching my childhood and youth wasted in pain and utter misery and the world is still labeling me a terrorist.
I am a terrorist because I fight for my basic rights which everyone else is taking for granted without shedding a single drop of blood and without being dehumanised.
Twenty-seven days of my short life were robbed from what are supposed to be the most beautiful years of my life. I spent them watching my loved ones getting killed because they were not human enough in the eyes of the world and I will spend many more years recovering from the war trauma instead of building my career.
If I don't survive this war, I would like the world to know that I have never seen a rocket nor stored any in my house.
Rest assured that I was not used as a human shield!
As I am writing this article, my mother told my father that we are out of cooking gas, knowing that we have been out of water and power for days now.
I still have not figured out what crime I have committed to endure this kind of wretchedness. I wonder what being human feels like.
Maisam Abumorr is a graduate of English Literature, a current student of Translation (high diploma) and Political Science and Media (BA) in the Islamic University of Gaza, a blogger and a body language trainer.
On August 04 2014 08:35 tokicheese wrote: Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
If Hamas in Qatar what the fuck is Israel doing invading Gaza? What the fuck man.
Stop with your Political correctness BS, Hamas leader hides in Qatar while recruiting jihadists to launch rockets into Isreal, no matter how bad Isreal is, you have no excuse to defend the fking terrorist Hamas, human-shield is inhumane, it's a backward mentality to sacrifice human lives for a piece of land. Yeah let's say Isreal give all the lands back to the Palestinians, what do you think the Islamists gonna turn that place into? I'd rather see Isreal survive then let the whole place ruined by Islamic fundamentalists. Give me a break.
so says your premisse is right(that hamas is a terrorist islamist group), then terrorism is more evil than killing civilians, sorry I don't see the fucking difference. the state of isreal (lets not put the whole isreali people in this mix) at this point is as terrorist as jihadist. So in this war situation both side are wrong if they dont choose peace. but on a daily basis when war isn't openly declared (like now) it is the palestinians who see their human right disrespected. they are the ones who are living under isreal's appartheid.
the state of isreal is also responsible for alot in this conflict so let's not accept that easily the legitimacy of isreal's offensive on gaza.
i'd say people using Isreal are with the propaganda machine.
Edit: the only place you find that form is in weird bible quotes: "El-elohe-Isreal: mighty one; God of Israel, the name which Jacob gave to the alter which he erected on the piece of land where he pitched his tent before Shechem, and which he afterwards purchased from the sons of Hamor" sure, some will want to score pompous points but mainly they read it, seen it or known about it from a bible quote. it has religious implications.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw.
It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
I'm not saying they don't have the right to go into Gaza. It is just the way they "fight" or rather not fight. Killing 1800 civilians more or less deliberately and destroying the lives of countless more, while killing few of actual terrorists, is not acceptable. Atleast not for me, I guess to you it is. Yes its easy for me to sit at my PC in Germany, I wouldn't want to swap places with my friend who is in Israel right now. But you know, it is much easier for my friend to sit in Israel, "praying" the Iron Dome works (cause it rarely works right? A cointoss one could say) than it is for somebody sitting in Gaza.
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
I'm not saying they don't have the right to go into Gaza. It is just the way they "fight" or rather not fight. Killing 1800 civilians more or less deliberately and destroying the lives of countless more, while killing few of actual terrorists, is not acceptable. Atleast not for me, I guess to you it is. Yes its easy for me to sit at my PC in Germany, I wouldn't want to swap places with my friend who is in Israel right now. But you know, it is much easier for my friend to sit in Israel, "praying" the Iron Dome works (cause it rarely works right? A cointoss one could say) than it is for somebody sitting in Gaza.
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
Hamas could be completely wiped out in less than a month or could get stronger than ever, we will see. What everyone is forgetting, that the massacre is strengthening the Israeli extreme right, which follows similar principles to Gaza radicals, except it's got a US funded army, airforce and WMDs at it's disposal.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
Yes, the situation is totally like if someone "stood outside [your] house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it". Brilliant analogy. Perhaps if the "someone" was shooting at your house because you were occupying its own much smaller house, controlling his movements in and out of his house, controlling what he can bring in and out of his house, allowing enough resources to go in to live in barely liveable conditions which were still steadily degrading, not respecting your legal obligations as an occupying power, killing innocent occupants of his house when your cat went missing, then yes, perhaps some of the most extremist members of his house would start firing bullets at your house over the incredibly outrageous situation they have to live in due to your actions. Your response to the bullets would also be to drop TNT on occupied parts of their house.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
It speaks volumes of the Israeli populace that 95% approve of the measures taken. To those who say 'blame the state, not the people,' you can't expect the leadership to ignore the bloodthirsty, shortsightedness of such an overwhelming majority.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
That's why we're asking for Israel to stop bombing. There is nothing human in the way gazans are treated by the way, you can't ask them to be the living gandhi considering they are in a prison since forty years, have a 70 % poverty rate, can't go fishing further than what 2 miles or war machine fire on them ? And can you blame them if they believe interntional negociations are biased in favor of Israeli ? If there are no solutions for them ?
And you then judge the Palestinian (and Israeli) society as a whole ... warming.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
By the way, to all those people still claiming Israel is trying very hard to avoid civilian casualities.
There was an article in german Spiegel claiming an Israeli spokesperson said regarding the latest shelling of an UN school that they tried to hit terrorists that were seen riding a motorbike in the area. So, let's say we are in a western country, and some guys rob a bank and shoot the cashier. Then they get chased by the police who fire artillery in the livingquarters of the city, killing 10 people. Would you say they tried to avoid casualties? I mean, i am sure they dropped leaflets over the UN building because in 10 minutes, some "terrorists" on a bike will come through the area.
On August 04 2014 05:25 accela wrote: Although i'm aware of the modern rhetoric especially at west that blindly baptize every type of struggle to terrorism, seems there is a certain profile built about palestinians in Gaza where there are the "apathetic" civilians who are just trying to get out of the way and the terrorists and supposedly the civilians are just a source to fuel terrorism (like it's some short of virus that spreads).
I'd like to know if people recognize armed resistance against an oppressive force.
I do, but it's like, it's not even necessary. Like, I don't really support Hamas in just launching rockets desperately at Israel's civilian population, and I think some leading Hamas members or whatever have uttered statements that were so incendiary that they make peace harder to get by. But I think it's extremely understandable that they are fighting the fight they are fighting. To put it gently, if you want to compare British oppression of the American colonies prior to the declaration of independence and all that led up to it, including the boston terrorist party, with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then it's not even close. Basically the whole, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing - in this case, I feel Palestinians are much, much more "entitled" to resort to terror than mostly any other group that has been doing so. I have a much harder time sympathizing with the IRA or ETA than I do with Hamas.
But it's irrelevant. Israeli treatment of Palestinian civilians cannot be justified through Hamas being terrible. I could consider Hamas the worst plague on earth (in reality, I think they are a desperate group of people with a legitimate cause and a very stupid way of trying to solve it), and it still would not justify Israel's actions here.
How do you avoid civilian casualties when they hide in schools/hospitals/use ambulances to transport troops/encourages people to stay in buildings that are about to be destroyed in one of the most densely popualted area on earth? They already call ahead to warn about an impending strike, then use a small explosive to "knock" as a further warning 10 minutes before they actually hit the building with the real explosive charge. What else could they possibly do?
Is there an arbitrary amount of dead Israelis when they are allowed to react to defend themselves?
Here's what Hamas is shooting into Israel btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkPQnvOUdBo It's not a little bottle rocket that's for sure. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I'm sure there would be a shit load more dead Israeli's without the iron dome. It's a lot easier to see why Israel is doing what it is when there are 2000 of those being shot at your family in a year.
Okay, well then, how many dead palestinians are worth 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? How many palestinians would you kill for 1 rocket or 1 terrorist? You say it is OK for Israel to bomb UN schools and hospitals, so surely there must be a number. What is it? 14? 15? They don't give a warning shot everytime btw.
On August 04 2014 07:24 Koorb wrote:
On August 04 2014 06:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: To Koorb: I said that. I said exactly "I mean I know that the rockets hamas are firing ARE indiscriminate". It's just that despite that, Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier. All I was saying is that no statistic is favoring Israel here, I was not saying that the reason is that Hamas is trying to avoid killing civilians while Israel is trying to kill civilians.
And Wolfstan, the statistics show that Israel is not defending themselves. I don't understand how you can have the idea that the group that kills 4 civilians and 60 soldiers is the one being aggressive when the other group kills 1200 civilians and 400 soldiers.
Israel is killing far more civilians per soldier because they dedicated a significant part of their ressources to develop defensive systems to protect their civilians, while Hamas used the donation money it receives to make rockets and tunnels meant to kidnap Israeli civilians, and concrete shelters for its members only. This is the fact that these statistics should be telling you, and not that Israel and its heavy-handed response are "showing less restraint" than Hamas, whom is showing none at all.
On August 04 2014 06:57 Holy_AT wrote: [...] The right cause of action is to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can not be the answer.
Well bad news is, at the moment both sides are quite happy with the bloodshed and in no hurry to end it. Hamas has its martyrs and its children's and women's corpses to put on world TV, and the Likud and its far-right cronies can pretend to be fierce warriors who dread nothing while not having any ideas on how to get out of this mess.
Did I understand that correctly? They kill other civilians to protect their own civilians? In what world is that even acceptable?
Hamas is attacking Israel. No one has to die in Israel to allow Israel to go into Gaza. If someone stood outside my house and shot a whole bunch of bullets into it I wouldn't let it slide. The intent is obvious. Just because an attack fails to kill someone doesn't make it okay. If Quebec started shooting rockets into Ottawa even if it didn't kill people you bet your ass the CF would be all over that shit.
It's easy to sit at your PC and act holier than thou but when thousands of rockets are being shot at you and all you can do is pray the Iron Dome works it's a different story. Meanwhile Hamas is sitting in a hotel in Qatar allowing little children to die to keep their income flowing...
When this all blows over, I actually think the Hamas is going to be stronger than ever. Sadly. Violence breeds more violence.
That's why what Israel's doing is so stupid (unless they plan to wipe out every single Palestinian). The remnants of families shattered by this violence in Gaza are going to be prime recruits for terrorist organizations. Who wouldn't want a chance to avenge the death of a daughter/wife/mother if given the chance?
A civilzed human being wouldnt seek for revenge but would try to stop the circlejerk of murdering and avenging. It doesnt speak for the Palestinian society either if their reaction to violence is even more bloody violence. (Same as for Israel)
Bullshit. You're barely surviving because of Israeli blockades and infrastructure damage. Then someone shells your daughter in a school. It's easy to post about stopping the cyclical violence on a forum but when Palestinians living in Israeli-imposed poverty are losing family members by the hundreds and thousands you can't expect a civilized response. Israel has a far better shot at showing how civilized it is considering it's only had a handful of civilian deaths and lives in the first world. If Israel can't be civilized/restrained how do you expect the poor bastards living in Gaza to behave?
A poor bastard as you call it has as much claim to killing someone else as a rich bastard. Hamas killing has no moral highground over Israel killing.
One of the basic questions is whether you apply the standards of Warfare to the casualty rates; or policing (wherein civilian casualties are much lower). I'd apply the warfare standards; as they seem more applicable to foes of this nature.
EPT
