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On July 31 2014 02:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 02:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. Declare a temporary ceasefire and withdraw temporarily from Gaza. Return to the table and start a dialog with Abbas trying to somehow include Hamas. Stop ridiculing and sidelining Kerry. We can start from there. And what happens when Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups continue to attack Israel?
They will continue to attack. And maybe Israel will have to venture again into Gaza. This is the beginning of the dialog. But the current approach of leveling the entire border area, search for tunnel entrances and blow them up is to damaging to Israels reputation and alienates their allies. It's also disproportionate and will just raise another generation of hatred filled Palestinians. The only option for peace is a dialog. The current military incursion will bring short term peace for the next 2 years maybe as Hamas will be to weak to continue fighting. But they will come back. They will always come back or someone like them, because they are backed by the entire Arab world. So starting a dialog is the only if slim hope of peace. Or perpetual warfare.
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On July 31 2014 03:19 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 02:56 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 02:49 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. Open the borders, allow Palestinians (and arabs in general) proportionate representation in the knesset. Remove the travel restrictions, outlaw the apartheid practices of community settlements. Basically removing all of Israel's Jim crow laws. This is of course operating under the rather reasonable assumption that Israel is unwilling to remove illegal settlements in the west bank or give up any land whatsoever. A fairly reasonable assumption if you look at Israel's actions since before it was founded until the present day. Actually 10% of Knesset seats are held by Arabic Israelis, with 20% of the population being Arabic. I haven't checked the numbers but I guess that's better than Turkish representation in the Bundestag or representation of African-Americans in the Congress. You would have to compare to non-whites in america, as that would be much closer to the current situation. as to the arabic representation within the knesset: If you allowed everyone within israel's declared borders to vote the arab vote would look like: 1.658 million in israel + 2.676 m in west bank + 1.816 m in gaza = 6.15 million divided by 8.134 million (israel) + 4.492 in gaza/wbank = 12.626 million total population 6.15 million out of 12.626 million = 48.7% All numbers taken from the respective wikipedia articles. Note that this would mean that there would be an equal number of ethnically jewish and ethnically arab people. 6.13 million jewish to 6.15 million arab.
Why are you giving Gaza and West Bank residents -- who are supposed to be citizens of a different country -- the right to vote in Israel?
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On July 31 2014 03:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 03:19 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:56 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 02:49 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. Open the borders, allow Palestinians (and arabs in general) proportionate representation in the knesset. Remove the travel restrictions, outlaw the apartheid practices of community settlements. Basically removing all of Israel's Jim crow laws. This is of course operating under the rather reasonable assumption that Israel is unwilling to remove illegal settlements in the west bank or give up any land whatsoever. A fairly reasonable assumption if you look at Israel's actions since before it was founded until the present day. Actually 10% of Knesset seats are held by Arabic Israelis, with 20% of the population being Arabic. I haven't checked the numbers but I guess that's better than Turkish representation in the Bundestag or representation of African-Americans in the Congress. You would have to compare to non-whites in america, as that would be much closer to the current situation. as to the arabic representation within the knesset: If you allowed everyone within israel's declared borders to vote the arab vote would look like: 1.658 million in israel + 2.676 m in west bank + 1.816 m in gaza = 6.15 million divided by 8.134 million (israel) + 4.492 in gaza/wbank = 12.626 million total population 6.15 million out of 12.626 million = 48.7% All numbers taken from the respective wikipedia articles. Note that this would mean that there would be an equal number of ethnically jewish and ethnically arab people. 6.13 million jewish to 6.15 million arab. Why are you giving Gaza and West Bank residents -- who are supposed to be citizens of a different country -- the right to vote in Israel?
Because he's examining the one state solution.
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well israel could decide to either call them part of their own country (and let them vote properly) or accept the twostate solution... and stop the occupation
As it is right now they pick the best of both ways.
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On July 31 2014 03:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 03:19 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:56 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 02:49 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. Open the borders, allow Palestinians (and arabs in general) proportionate representation in the knesset. Remove the travel restrictions, outlaw the apartheid practices of community settlements. Basically removing all of Israel's Jim crow laws. This is of course operating under the rather reasonable assumption that Israel is unwilling to remove illegal settlements in the west bank or give up any land whatsoever. A fairly reasonable assumption if you look at Israel's actions since before it was founded until the present day. Actually 10% of Knesset seats are held by Arabic Israelis, with 20% of the population being Arabic. I haven't checked the numbers but I guess that's better than Turkish representation in the Bundestag or representation of African-Americans in the Congress. You would have to compare to non-whites in america, as that would be much closer to the current situation. as to the arabic representation within the knesset: If you allowed everyone within israel's declared borders to vote the arab vote would look like: 1.658 million in israel + 2.676 m in west bank + 1.816 m in gaza = 6.15 million divided by 8.134 million (israel) + 4.492 in gaza/wbank = 12.626 million total population 6.15 million out of 12.626 million = 48.7% All numbers taken from the respective wikipedia articles. Note that this would mean that there would be an equal number of ethnically jewish and ethnically arab people. 6.13 million jewish to 6.15 million arab. Why are you giving Gaza and West Bank residents -- who are supposed to be citizens of a different country -- the right to vote in Israel?
Because Israel has repeatedly shown both in rhetoric and action that it will never give up the land of the west bank. Because they currently reside in Israel according to Israel which has also denied their sovereignty.
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On July 31 2014 03:25 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 31 2014 03:19 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:56 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 02:49 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. Open the borders, allow Palestinians (and arabs in general) proportionate representation in the knesset. Remove the travel restrictions, outlaw the apartheid practices of community settlements. Basically removing all of Israel's Jim crow laws. This is of course operating under the rather reasonable assumption that Israel is unwilling to remove illegal settlements in the west bank or give up any land whatsoever. A fairly reasonable assumption if you look at Israel's actions since before it was founded until the present day. Actually 10% of Knesset seats are held by Arabic Israelis, with 20% of the population being Arabic. I haven't checked the numbers but I guess that's better than Turkish representation in the Bundestag or representation of African-Americans in the Congress. You would have to compare to non-whites in america, as that would be much closer to the current situation. as to the arabic representation within the knesset: If you allowed everyone within israel's declared borders to vote the arab vote would look like: 1.658 million in israel + 2.676 m in west bank + 1.816 m in gaza = 6.15 million divided by 8.134 million (israel) + 4.492 in gaza/wbank = 12.626 million total population 6.15 million out of 12.626 million = 48.7% All numbers taken from the respective wikipedia articles. Note that this would mean that there would be an equal number of ethnically jewish and ethnically arab people. 6.13 million jewish to 6.15 million arab. Why are you giving Gaza and West Bank residents -- who are supposed to be citizens of a different country -- the right to vote in Israel? Because he's examining the one state solution.
Pretty much. The two state solution will not happen unless the United States forces it. And it is political suicide to go against AIPAC so that's never going to happen.
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Point being is that even 25 US states yet have to elect a black or female senator. Does that mean that the US is pursuing institutional discrimination to the point of racism? I don't think many people would say that. Even many high ranking IDF positions have been held by Arabic Israelis. They also have been appointed ministers and members of the Israeli supreme court among other things. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Representation_in_political.2C_judicial_and_military_positions)
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On July 31 2014 03:32 Nyxisto wrote:
Point being is that even 25 US states yet have to elect a black or female senator. Does that mean that the US is pursuing institutional discrimination to the point of racism? I don't think many people would say that. Even many high ranking IDF positions have been held by Arabic Israelis. They also have been appointed ministers and members of the Israeli supreme court among other things. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Representation_in_political.2C_judicial_and_military_positions)
Yes, just like there were free Negroes during slavery, useful Jews during Nazism and aristocrats kept around during communism.
They'd never allow the Arabs real representation, because as it's been said many times, Israel insists on staying a "Jewish democracy", in other words a racially pure state.
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On July 31 2014 03:32 Nyxisto wrote:
Point being is that even 25 US states yet have to elect a black or female senator. Does that mean that the US is pursuing institutional discrimination to the point of racism? I don't think many people would say that. Even many high ranking IDF positions have been held by Arabic Israelis. They also have been appointed ministers and members of the Israeli supreme court among other things. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Representation_in_political.2C_judicial_and_military_positions)
You are correct. There have been a fair number of christian arabs, bedoin, and Druze in positions of power. In stark contrast there have been impressively few muslim arabs in elected positions when you consider that they make up 70% of the currently recognized Israeli arab population.
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On July 31 2014 03:45 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 03:32 Nyxisto wrote:
Point being is that even 25 US states yet have to elect a black or female senator. Does that mean that the US is pursuing institutional discrimination to the point of racism? I don't think many people would say that. Even many high ranking IDF positions have been held by Arabic Israelis. They also have been appointed ministers and members of the Israeli supreme court among other things. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Representation_in_political.2C_judicial_and_military_positions) You are correct. There have been a fair number of christian arabs, bedoin, and Druze in positions of power. In stark contrast there have been impressively few muslim arabs in elected positions when you consider that they make up 70% of the currently recognized Israeli arab population.
Nyxisto is making the same point again.
Simply having Arabs in the government doesn't mean that Israel is an inclusive state. Like I said before, this area was once 100% Arabs. Therefore it's natural to have some left over in Israel.
What one should be looking at is Israel's policies and whether they promote inclusion or exclusivity.
The Citizenship policy alone should make you scratch your head - just being Jewish grants you Israeli citizenship.
If you're Arab/Muslim and you want to be an Israeli citizen you need to be a qualified worker or live there for a certain number of years or meet some other requirements and get in on a technicality.
But if you're Jewish. You just. Get it.
I think that says all that needs to be said.
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On July 31 2014 04:15 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 03:45 Jormundr wrote:On July 31 2014 03:32 Nyxisto wrote:
Point being is that even 25 US states yet have to elect a black or female senator. Does that mean that the US is pursuing institutional discrimination to the point of racism? I don't think many people would say that. Even many high ranking IDF positions have been held by Arabic Israelis. They also have been appointed ministers and members of the Israeli supreme court among other things. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Representation_in_political.2C_judicial_and_military_positions) You are correct. There have been a fair number of christian arabs, bedoin, and Druze in positions of power. In stark contrast there have been impressively few muslim arabs in elected positions when you consider that they make up 70% of the currently recognized Israeli arab population. Nyxisto is making the same point again. Simply having Arabs in the government doesn't mean that Israel is an inclusive state. Like I said before, this area was once 100% Arabs. Therefore it's natural to have some left over in Israel. What one should be looking at is Israel's policies and whether they promote inclusion or exclusivity. The Citizenship policy alone should make you scratch your head - just being Jewish grants you Israeli citizenship. If you're Arab/Muslim and you want to be an Israeli citizen you need to be a qualified worker or live there for a certain number of years or meet some other requirements and get in on a technicality. But if you're Jewish. You just. Get it. I think that says all that needs to be said.
That's really not one of the present issues. The immigration policies have no real meaning in the current discussion aside from being an example of state zionism.
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That is the case here in Germany, too.Virtually every Jewish person is granted immigration rights here. Israel functioned as a refuge for Jews after WW II. Their policy towards Jewish immigrants just reflects that. No more, no less. To derive from that any kind of discrimination towards other people doesn't make a lot of sense.
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On July 31 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote:
That is the case here in Germany, too.Virtually every Jewish person is granted immigration rights here. Israel functioned as a refuge for Jews after WW II. Their policy towards Jewish immigrants just reflects that. No more, no less. To derive from that any kind of discrimination towards other people doesn't make a lot of sense.
Germany isn't a jewish state occupying a population half its size.
also the first thing I found when I searched "germany jews immigrations"
The mass migration of Jews from the former Soviet Union to Germany likely will come to a swift end with the introduction of a new law drawn up by Germany’s 16-state governments. German authorities presented the new restrictions on Jewish immigration to Germany’s two national Jewish organizations last week. As put forth, the restrictions effectively will end the wave of migration that has brought almost 200,000 Jews and their relatives to Germany from the former Soviet Union, causing a Jewish renaissance in the most unlikely of places. The law drew praise from Israeli authorities, who have long been uncomfortable with Jewish immigration to Germany, especially since it began topping immigration to Israel in the last few years. Michael Jankelowitz, a spokesman for the Jewish Agency for Israel, a quasi-government agency responsible for immigration to Israel, said the changes were “positive.” Jankelowitz said that his organization aggressively had lobbied the German government for the new law. Read more: http://forward.com/articles/4029/germany-is-moving-to-end-mass-immigration-of-jews/#ixzz38yvYKF7t
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well the only thing that was changed by the immigration reform was that they need to speak a little bit of German now, but that is off-topic anyway. The gist of it is that Israel grants Jewish people the right of return because historically Israel has been founded as a refuge because of the extermination on the European continent. That doesn't imply that they're discriminating other people.
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On July 31 2014 04:34 Nyxisto wrote:
well the only thing that was changed by the immigration reform was that they need to speak a little bit of German now, but that is off-topic anyway. The gist of it is that Israel grants Jewish people the right of return because historically Israel has been founded as a refuge because of the extermination on the European continent. That doesn't imply that they're discriminating other people.
You are correct. It doesn't imply discrimination, it proves it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_discrimination
You can argue whether the holocaust justifies it or not, but it is discrimination, and part of a greater whole known as zionism - maybe you've heard of it? It is by no means a fringe belief. It is what Jews in Israel and the US are taught to believe as soon as they start school / hebrew school respectively.
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On July 31 2014 04:34 Nyxisto wrote:
well the only thing that was changed by the immigration reform was that they need to speak a little bit of German now, but that is off-topic anyway. The gist of it is that Israel grants Jewish people the right of return because historically Israel has been founded as a refuge because of the extermination on the European continent. That doesn't imply that they're discriminating other people.
All right, lets me clear, there is a reasonable number of people in in Israel are racist as fuck and a lot of them have gained a lot of power in the government. They suck just as much as Hamas and the only difference is they have more guns and power right now. Lets not act like Israel is the land of tolerance right now or for the last 10 years.
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On July 31 2014 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 03:04 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Why do people hold Israel to such different standards? Even the USA negotiates with the taliban... so what you are saying doesn't make any sense. You can only achieve peace trough negotiation with all parts involved in this conflict. Over the last 10 years The United States have conducted a full-fledged war against the Taliban and many missions and drone attacks with the goal to dismantle them completely, with civil casualties reaching into the hundred thousands(Iraq+Afghanistan). In contrary to the Iraq war the Afghan war has never seen a lot of criticism and neither have people complained very loudly about the asymmetrical nature of the wars. I think that raises the question where the differences are that makes what Israel does so much more condemnable.
If hamas had the same arsenal has the taliban instead of the homemade rockets they have you would be crying much more. But the point was that even the USA negotiates with the taliban and they are "worse" than hamas.
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I'm a long time supporter of a 2 state solution, but that ship looks like it sailed. Israel is gonna take the whole thing and that's really all there is to it. Whether it is fast or slow, the result will be the same. I hope Israel cleans house sooner than later so that the world can move on.
User was warned for this post
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Israel2209 Posts
On July 31 2014 04:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 04:34 Nyxisto wrote:
well the only thing that was changed by the immigration reform was that they need to speak a little bit of German now, but that is off-topic anyway. The gist of it is that Israel grants Jewish people the right of return because historically Israel has been founded as a refuge because of the extermination on the European continent. That doesn't imply that they're discriminating other people. All right, lets me clear, there is a reasonable number of people in in Israel are racist as fuck and a lot of them have gained a lot of power in the government. They suck just as much as Hamas and the only difference is they have more guns and power right now. Lets not act like Israel is the land of tolerance right now or for the last 10 years.
"They suck just as much as Hamas"
Who exactly?
Name one political party in the knesset who's charter says Palestinians should be harmed.
And let's talk about Israeli tolerance for a second.
A country with a growing population of over 1.5 million arab citizens when Jews were forced out of Muslim countries.
A country with the city Tel Aviv which "has frequently been referred to by publishers as one of the most gay friendly cities in the world".
A country which spends billions of dollars from its budgets on developing defensive missiles which no other country in the world has or ever thought.
A country which continues to provide aid to the citizens of Gaza during this recent cycle of violence, because it is not at war with them, but with Hamas. I bet you didn't know there is an IDF field hospital right outside of Gaza only for Palestinian citizens, and Hamas has fired upon it several times. Good thing that missile defense system is protecting those Palestinian citizens from Hamas' rockets.
So no, you can't compare Israel to Hamas when it comes to "sucking". You can criticize Israel for its actions, but if you think it is just as bad as Hamas, you really have no place in a real conversation about this issue.
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On July 31 2014 05:01 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 04:46 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2014 04:34 Nyxisto wrote:
well the only thing that was changed by the immigration reform was that they need to speak a little bit of German now, but that is off-topic anyway. The gist of it is that Israel grants Jewish people the right of return because historically Israel has been founded as a refuge because of the extermination on the European continent. That doesn't imply that they're discriminating other people. All right, lets me clear, there is a reasonable number of people in in Israel are racist as fuck and a lot of them have gained a lot of power in the government. They suck just as much as Hamas and the only difference is they have more guns and power right now. Lets not act like Israel is the land of tolerance right now or for the last 10 years. "They suck just as much as Hamas" Who exactly? Name one political party in the knesset who's charter says Palestinians should be harmed. And let's talk about Israeli tolerance for a second. A country with a growing population of over 1.5 million arab citizens when Jews were forced out of Muslim countries. A country with the city Tel Aviv which "has frequently been referred to by publishers as one of the most gay friendly cities in the world". A country which spends billions of dollars from its budgets on developing defensive missiles which no other country in the world has or ever thought. A country which continues to provide aid to the citizens of Gaza during this recent cycle of violence, because it is not at war with them, but with Hamas. I bet you didn't know there is an IDF field hospital right outside of Gaza only for Palestinian citizens, and Hamas has fired upon it several times. Good thing that missile defense system is protecting those Palestinian citizens from Hamas' rockets. So no, you can't compare Israel to Hamas when it comes to "sucking". You can criticize Israel for its actions, but if you think it is just as bad as Hamas, you really have no place in a real conversation about this issue.
I believe I said the racist and zealots in Israel are as bad as Hamas, not the country as a whole. And in my opinion those people are as guilty of escalating the crisis as Hamas. Its what they want.
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EPT
