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On July 31 2014 01:10 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage. Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means, but the goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up.
Is that surprising? The living conditions for Palestinians are perfect to create terrorists.
It's not only the bad state of economy. Palestinians aren't welcome anywhere, not in their home country, not in neighbouring countries, not in classical destination countries for immigration. They cannot control their own fate, are dependent on the whims of Israel and the surrounding Arab nations. Imagine the effects on their psyche!
And the only outsiders willing to invest real money in their communities are those interested in destroying Israel.
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel.
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On July 31 2014 01:26 Maenander wrote:
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel.
Are you referring to the rockets fired at Israel? I'll suggest you take a trip to the country and experience these kind of alarms first hand and crawl into a bomb shelter 5 times a day. 50% of kids in the certain regions show signs of ptsd.(Source)
Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away.
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On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:26 Maenander wrote:
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel. Are you referring to the rockets fired at Israel? I'll suggest you take a trip to the country and experience these kind of alarms first hand and crawl into a bomb shelter 5 times a day. 50% of kids in the certain regions show signs of ptsd.( Source) Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim.
I am sure leveling houses in the Gaza strip does nothing of that sort.
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On July 31 2014 01:20 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 31 2014 01:10 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage. Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means to an end, but the actual goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up. I think you would be surprised at what could be achieved if Israel just stopped oppressing the Palestinian population. Its not a hard thing to do, just stop building on their land and punishing their people for their religion, and you may find peace would come surprisingly easily. You can go on and on about Hamas rejecting peace, but both sides have rejected peace terms in the last few weeks, because neither is willing to make a compromise. Israel is just as determined to take every last square inch of Palestine land as Palestine is to destroy Israel. This is shown by ACTIONS, not propaganda or the words of someone on the internet. Like they did when they withdrew form Gaza? I have not yet heard one person respond to this. If what you're saying is true, how do you explain that right after Israel withdrew rocket attacks increased by 350% ? I would like an answer precisely to that question. edit: + Show Spoiler +Some important points are the disengagement in 05, the blockade and 'cast lead' in 07/08, and 'Pillar of defense' in 2012.
When you say Israel withdrew from Gaza, they withdrew in some ways but carried on oppressing the population in ways that are completely unacceptable. If i lived in Gaza in 2005, i would be seriously angry, because of the following:
1) Israel's control and actions in Karni, Kerem Shalom, and Sufa. The three main crossings into/out of Gaza were regularly closed by Israeli military forces, causing massive problems with trade and food levels in Gaza.
If you think that is anything but oppression you are wrong.
2) Israel continues to control the joint Gaza Strip-West Bank population registry, which means Israel gets to decide who is a “Palestinian resident” and who is a “foreigner.” Palestinians must seek Israeli approval for every individual who wants to move to the West Bank. taken from http://middleeast.about.com/od/israelandpalestine/
3) Essentially the withdrawal was only military. Palestinians still had zero control over their own lives.
The Palestinian population was still controlled and oppressed by Israel.
Once this stops, peace will be easier.
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On July 31 2014 01:39 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 01:26 Maenander wrote:
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel. Are you referring to the rockets fired at Israel? I'll suggest you take a trip to the country and experience these kind of alarms first hand and crawl into a bomb shelter 5 times a day. 50% of kids in the certain regions show signs of ptsd.( Source) Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. I am sure leveling houses in the Gaza strip does nothing of that sort.
Which does change nothing about the reality these people bordering Gaza live in. "a few hundred rocket attacks" isn't a Wikipedia number for them. Every single one is a real threat. The military operations reduced this threat by a huge margin. I'm pretty sure that if you had to live there you'd be very glad if you'd only get attacked by one rocket a day instead of ten.
The Palestinian population was still controlled and oppressed by Israel.
Once this stops, peace will be easier.
To assume that Israel could turn the whole situation around in a few weeks is utopian. The disengagement was a pretty big concession. No one expected wonders, but ramping the rocket attacks up by several hundred percent? Really?
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On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:26 Maenander wrote:
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel. Are you referring to the rockets fired at Israel? I'll suggest you take a trip to the country and experience these kind of alarms first hand and crawl into a bomb shelter 5 times a day. 50% of kids in the certain regions show signs of ptsd.( Source) Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away.
So what do you think living next to nuclear armed maniacs preaching how their god promised them your home affects the Palestinians' minds? Because those people are building government subsidized settlements on the remaining Palestinian lands on the West Bank, while the Palestinians are treated like inmates with checkpoints and harrassments and so on.
The generous Gaza withdrawal resulted in creating a ghetto completely dependent on outside aid, with guns pointed on them from all sides. At least Israel managed to give up some settlements there but then they just started rebuilding them elsewhere.
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On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:
Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away.
I am really interested in your opinion: If you had a choice between living in an Isreali settlement or in the Gaza strip what would you choose? Unlike me here in front of my PC you actually know what those people experience!
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On July 31 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +The Palestinian population was still controlled and oppressed by Israel.
Once this stops, peace will be easier. To assume that Israel could turn the whole situation around in a few weeks is utopian. The disengagement was a pretty big concession. No one expected wonders, but ramping the rocket attacks up by several hundred percent? Really?
Yeah you're right. This was probably the Palestinians worst possible move at that time. I would hope that they have learned from that by now. Having said that, Israel continued military operations at that time too (despite the withdrawal). Just as Hamas and Fatah were fighting between themselves, Israel sent a helicopter to bomb military targets in Palestine (early 2006).
Obviously i don't expect Israel to change the whole situation in a couple of weeks. There needs to be a long term plan, and Hamas needs to engage with that plan. It should involve complete military and administrative withdrawal from Palestinian territory, and the complete cessation of rocket and mortar attacks against Israel. Unfortunately neither side is willing to fulfill their part of that.
I am of the opinion that Hamas needs to go, but that it needs to be an international decision, and it needs to be done without bombing markets, schools and the like.
Also, to be pedantic, it was actually mortar fire that increased the most, not rocket attacks.
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On July 31 2014 01:55 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:
Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away. I am really interested in your opinion: If you had a choice between living in an Isreali settlement or in the Gaza strip what would you choose? Unlike me here in front of my PC you actually know what those people experience!
I don't have much more personal experience with this than you, but I'm also not claiming that " a few rocket attacks per day" aren't a problem. You don't need to live there to imagine how living in a zone of war will actually change your perspective. I'm a little fed up with the keyboard warrior attitude and the people that like painting Israelis as warmongers while actually completely neglecting that they're living in a very different reality than we do. Most of us get anxious when we hit the starcraft ladder button, just dismissing rocket attacks on the Israelis like "dude, these things are build out of fertilizer!" is insanely ignorant.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:26 Maenander wrote:
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel. Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away.
It would really help this discussion if you would stop this bullshit non-argument. It is in fact possible to discuss Gaza without living in range of Hamas rockets.
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On July 31 2014 02:11 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 01:26 Maenander wrote:
So you are a staunch supporter of this war? What do you think can destroying some houses and tunnels achieve in the long term? The capability to shoot a few rockets over the border is not the real problem. The problem is the constant creation of people hating Israel, people who really have nothing better to do in their life than pursuing the (unattainable) goal of destroying Israel. Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away. It would really help this discussion if you would stop this bullshit non-argument. It is in fact possible to discuss Gaza without living in range of Hamas rockets.
Fair enough, but many people don't shy away from trying to emphasize with the people in Gaza on exactly this level. You can't paint every loss of life in Gaza as a great human tragedy and look the other way when it's about the Israelian citizens.
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On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Why do people hold Israel to such different standards?
You forget that:
1.Palestinians did not declare jihad on Israel first. Think whatever you want, no Palestinian will ever admit this, no matter how hard they try to justify Israel's existence in 1948 in the Western media. Palestine views itself as the defender.
2. Why should they negotiate with Israel? Their ultraradical elements (Hamas of Israel to make it easier to imagine)call the shots, even over Netanyahu. Slaughtering Gaza is appeasing them. Is that how you win elections in a democracy?
However, in Abbas there is a man after Arafat who is still willing to talk to them, but not even Abbas (to you a moderate, to many he's weak) can accept the shitty offers the Israelis give for peace. That Abbas can at times hold together the Palestinian camp deserves credit though.
You could wonder why South Africa was held to different standards when nominally they were a democracy as well... as much as SA was seen as an out of place and out of time state, Israel also operates on beliefs that don't belong in the 21st century.
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On July 31 2014 02:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:55 Maenander wrote:On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:
Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away. I am really interested in your opinion: If you had a choice between living in an Isreali settlement or in the Gaza strip what would you choose? Unlike me here in front of my PC you actually know what those people experience! I don't have much more personal experience with this than you, but I'm also not claiming that " a few rocket attacks per day" aren't a problem. You don't need to live there to imagine how living in a zone of war will actually change your perspective. I'm a little fed up with the keyboard warrior attitude and the people that like painting Israelis as warmongers while actually completely neglecting that they're living in a very different reality than we do. Most of us get anxious when we hit the starcraft ladder button, just dismissing rocket attacks on the Israelis like "dude, these things are build out of fertilizer!" is insanely ignorant.
And all of that interpreted into one of my sentences, while ignoring the rest. I never said any of this, it was made up by you.The rockets are part of a much much larger problem, never did I say they are not a problem at all.
Israel might be solving the immediate rocket problem but is only exacerbating the larger problems, that's what I find wrong with their attack.
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For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred.
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On July 31 2014 02:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:55 Maenander wrote:On July 31 2014 01:37 Nyxisto wrote:
Claiming that "a few rockets thrown at your home" don't do anything to you is such an ignorant claim. Things like these goes to show how unable some people are to understand what it actually means for the people to experience this instead of just sitting in front of their pc's several thousand miles away. I am really interested in your opinion: If you had a choice between living in an Isreali settlement or in the Gaza strip what would you choose? Unlike me here in front of my PC you actually know what those people experience! I don't have much more personal experience with this than you, but I'm also not claiming that " a few rocket attacks per day" aren't a problem. You don't need to live there to imagine how living in a zone of war actually will change your perspective.
Answer the question: At what point in your lifetime, if any, would you be more comfortable living inside the Gaza strip rather than in Israel?
This is an important point because you have said that for Israel, the ends (protecting Israelis from this fear) justify the means (killing civilians, destroying homes, 'disappearing' people, and keeping an entire population in prison) even though the means are largely counter-intuitive to the end goal.
However you also argue that for the average Gazan, the ends (freedom from Israeli control) do not justify the means (launching rockets indiscriminately) even though they are similar to the means used by the Israelis (albeit dwarfed in scale and far more limited in ability).
If, as you have stated repeatedly, Israel is justified in killing civilians based on their fears, then the Gazans should be justified in killing civilians based on the reality of their every day lives. This is even before you consider the fact that Gazans have no reasonable ability to take traditional military action, nor are they accorded any political or negotiating power.
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On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred.
That's a great way to look at it.
"they'll never accept peace, so we have no choice but to destroy them completely"
I think you just summarized the opinion of both sides here. What a disgusting thought.
You are correct in one thing though, that is how war has been done for thousands of years. Why would we want to prove that we are improving as a human race, when we can just kill kill kill like we always have done.
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On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred.
Declare a temporary ceasefire and withdraw temporarily from Gaza. Return to the table and start a dialog with Abbas trying to somehow include Hamas. Stop ridiculing and sidelining Kerry. We can start from there.
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On July 31 2014 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. That's a great way to look at it. "they'll never accept peace, so we have no choice but to destroy them completely" You are correct in one thing though, that is how war has been done for thousands of years. Why would we want to prove that we are improving as a human race, when we can just kill kill kill like we always have done.
Hey, I'm just a realist. There's no nation in existence today that wasn't built on the bones of at least one subjugated culture. The current western-imposed order on the world has merely stalled and slowed this natural process.
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On July 31 2014 02:30 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
For all of the Palestinian apologists around here, I'd love to hear your proposal for what Israel should be doing given the circumstances. The last time that I posed this question, I didn't get anything resembling a satisfying answer.
And just to help jump start the conversation, let me make the point that I made the last time this came up: even if Israel decided to be "nice" to Palestinians going forward, what are the chances that Palestinians reciprocate in kind? Zilch. There's too much bad blood on both sides. Total subjugation of one side by the other is the only realistic outcome, which makes sense if you think about this in the context of the past five thousand years of human history as opposed to just the past one hundred. Declare a temporary ceasefire and withdraw temporarily from Gaza. Return to the table and start a dialog with Abbas trying to somehow include Hamas. Stop ridiculing and sidelining Kerry. We can start from there.
And what happens when Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups continue to attack Israel?
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@ Jormundr:
No, that's not what I argue. Yes, if you're defending your country (what in my opinion Israel is doing) then military operations are a legitimate last resort. I think Israel wants to live in peace with the Palestinians,they simply have no ideological or practical reason not to. There is nothing to gain for them in this war. If they'd simply want to annex all the territory they could have done so 20 years ago and no one would have stopped them.
The Hamas on the other hand is not fighting for freedom. They're fighting to fight, they thrive on the war as does every other jihadist group. The concessions Israel has made have only been answered with more violence by the Hamas. If the Palestinians truly wanted peace as a people they should start by getting rid of the terrorist part of their government. If the Palestinians are unable to do this (which I think they are) then Israel should break the Hamas up.
And to answer your question: I'd obviously prefer to live in Israel, but I don't know what that has to do with anything.
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