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On July 30 2014 23:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 23:44 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 23:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 30 2014 23:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 23:34 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 23:28 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 23:26 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 23:20 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 23:17 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 23:12 WhiteDog wrote:
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I'm not justifying the attacks on civilians, because those are crime, but as to the reason why they are hitting civilian area it is pretty simple : hamas' rockets are low grade, that hit randomly, with no sophisticated target system. So it's not so much that hamas is targetting civilian and much more that they launch rockets and hope it land somewhere in Israel. And you don't think that is equally crazy? Yes ! So let's put restriction on Israel just like we do on Gaza ! Resolve this shit and stop supporting the terrorist state versus the terrorist para military and islamic group. On July 30 2014 23:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 30 2014 23:15 Donger wrote:[quote] From the BBC showing Israel dropping leaflets warning Palestinians to leave the area within Gaza city. ![[image loading]](http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76627000/jpg/_76627213_pvx7erxj.jpg) Great so then they target a shelter that they know for sure is full of civilians that they have made homeless. All praise merciful Israel. Half of gaza is now a buffer zone no-go area. ![[image loading]](http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76622000/gif/_76622247_gaza_shejaiya_624_latest.gif) How about neither because they both suck. Neither side gets my support and I hope they can get done with their stupid pissing match so everyone else can get back to their normal lives. But you know that the US support Israel in every shit they do right ? You know that you gove I don't know how much billion dollars to Israel every year ? You know that in every operation from Israel the US give a discretionary help, in dollars or in weapons ? In the mean time, Gaza is surviving with humanitarian aid, humanitarian aid that got cancelled as soon as Hamas got elected. And do not forget, there are people suffering on one side, innocent people. That's my government, not me. They do lots of shit I don't approve of. We also have trade agreements with Russia, who we are not fans of right now. Also, if your a modern nation in the world and have to choose between supporting Hamas or Israel and which one benefits you most, it isn't really a contest. Foreign police isn't dictated by morals or what is justified or not. It dictated by pure pragmatism. You see that's a strategic mistake because Israel is at the core of every problem in the region, with their colonialist ideology, and has had many reckless actions (take the exemple of the bombing and killing in Iran that the Mossad did using the CIA name) while the arabo muslim world is an unstable area that has not only many ressources that the US needs. Not to mention islamism can harm the US as it did in the past. The US would greatly gain from a more balanced positioning in this conflict, in terms of global image and stability with its partner in the middle east. There are talk in the US to give a financial aid to Israel. US Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says Israel urgently needs more financial aid from the United States for its offensive against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/28/373165/israel-in-urgent-need-of-money-from-us-reid/ I don't really think its Israel's fault that they are the cause of every problem in the area though. That's a historical issue ie they should never have been there in the first place. You have my glorious government to thank for that one. Maybe, but in terms of image Israel is at the core of every problem. There have been a killing in France some years ago : a stupid young guy (Mohammed Merah) killed kids in a school, then some military and some other guy. He argued that he did it for the death in gaza... A crazy guy in NY kills a shit ton of people because he claimed his dog told him to do it. That doesn't really prove a lot.
It was just an exemple. But to me it proves many islamic people see this conflict as the core of injustice between the occidental and oriental culture and the last colonial question to be resolved.
And to be fair they're not wrong, but its then used as a pretext by deranged fundamentalist to kill.
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On July 30 2014 23:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 23:20 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 23:17 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 23:12 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 23:09 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 21:50 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 21:44 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 21:24 radiatoren wrote:On July 30 2014 21:01 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
I don't want to get involved into this debate, but I cannot believe how terribly hypocritical most people on this website are, it's fucking ridiculous. Could you be a tad more specific about the hypocricies? It is a bit easy to slam a broad condemnation on people without it. Not that I don't think you may have a point, but not wanting to get involved in a debate on one side and critizising people in a debate, could in itself be seen as... hypocricy. Some posters wear their bias either side on their sleeve and claim the other side of not being objective. People dismiss new articles as “propaganda” and simply refuse to accept that the side they support could be escalating the situation. This bias is strong in this thread. And to be clear, I give zero fucks who wins or who is wrong in this conflict. At this point both sides deserve each other and if they somehow wiped each other out, I wouldn't be upset. Like many third party observers, I am just tired of the conflict and the parties need to rehash 70 years of history each time violence flairs up. At some point you've got to make the first step and gather knowledge yourself. When someone's argument is that : the occupation is over since 2005, that Hamas refuse to talk, and that they use human shield, it is propaganda. The occupation is not ended according to the UN, Hamas accepted to at least negociate some time ago, and many many international agencies showed that Hamas did not, or at least find no proof of using human shield, while Israel has been condemn, with many picture, on their use of palestinian civilians in war as human shield and for other duty (like checking bags for bombs). That you are ignorant of all those facts does not make those simple and false argument "not propaganda". I add that, when you think about the fact that Israel even paid Youtube for advertising on their attack on gaza, and when you think about how much israeli high officials are on TV, or how the IDF itself communicate and how the media take their information without any discussions on it, then I think it is safe to say "propaganda". Hamas is firing rockets into civilians areas in Israel. That is an everyday fact. Please tell me how you explain that? They are not targeting military structures or anything that directly relates to the occupation. It is either an act of terror or a war crime, depending on how you view the organization. So I have a simple question for you. Do you think that Hamas is justified doing this or not? Edit: Spelling I'm not justifying the attacks on civilians, because those are crime, but as to the reason why they are hitting civilian area it is pretty simple : hamas' rockets are low grade, that hit randomly, with no sophisticated target system. So it's not so much that hamas is targetting civilian and much more that they launch rockets and hope it land somewhere in Israel. And you don't think that is equally crazy? Yes ! So let's put restriction on Israel just like we do on Gaza ! Resolve this shit and stop supporting the terrorist state versus the terrorist para military and islamic group. On July 30 2014 23:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 30 2014 23:15 Donger wrote:On July 30 2014 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28558433Mr Gunness from the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) told the BBC that Israel had been told 17 times that the school in the Jabaliya refugee camp was housing the displaced.
"The last time was hours before the fatal attack," he said.
"Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school." That's some pretty direct evidence that Israel is in no way trying to avoid civilian casualties. 17 times, they were warned that the shelter was holding civilians made homeless. From the BBC showing Israel dropping leaflets warning Palestinians to leave the area within Gaza city. Great so then they target a shelter that they know for sure is full of civilians that they have made homeless. All praise merciful Israel. Half of gaza is now a buffer zone no-go area. How about neither because they both suck. Neither side gets my support and I hope they can get done with their stupid pissing match so everyone else can get back to their normal lives.
Can you please stop making a show out of your neutrality? Thanks.
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It's the gaza thread here.
Btw, my country proposed asilum to christians in Iraq while it gave a full go to israel.
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I think everyone accepts that every problem in the middle east is not the fault of Israel. Thats not the argument being made, only that people use the support of Israel as an excuse to commit violent acts against the supporting party. I personally don't consider it a compelling argument in most cases, as the violent parties would likely just find another excuse. But it is a valid point of view that supporting Israel might put that nation's population at risk.
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On July 30 2014 23:58 Plansix wrote:I think everyone accepts that every problem in the middle east is not the fault of Israel. Thats not the argument being made, only that people use the support of Israel as an excuse to commit violent acts against the supporting party. I personally don't consider it a compelling argument in most cases, as the violent parties would likely just find another excuse. But it is a valid point of view that supporting Israel might put that nation's population at risk.
Sure, you can and should blame Israel if they commit war crimes or use excessive measures, but calling them a terrorist state is just completely ridiculous. There is no reason to believe Israel wouldn't genuinely want piece. There is no such thing as a Jewish jihad. All Israel gains from this is dead soldiers and international blame. There is no rationale behind the accusations of Israel as some kind of relentless aggressor.
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On July 31 2014 00:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 23:58 Plansix wrote:I think everyone accepts that every problem in the middle east is not the fault of Israel. Thats not the argument being made, only that people use the support of Israel as an excuse to commit violent acts against the supporting party. I personally don't consider it a compelling argument in most cases, as the violent parties would likely just find another excuse. But it is a valid point of view that supporting Israel might put that nation's population at risk. Sure, you can and should blame Israel if they commit war crimes or use excessive measures, but calling them a terrorist state is just completely ridiculous. There is no reason to believe Israel wouldn't genuinely want piece. There is no such thing as a Jewish jihad. All Israel gains from this is dead soldiers and international blame. There is no rationale behind the accusations of Israel as some kind of relentless aggressor.
Uhh... you might want to look at who make up the governing coalition of Israel and what they've been saying lately. Do you think what they're doing in Gaza classifies as excessive measures? And yes, Israel is seeking to gain a ghetto that won't shoot back again, maybe even turn the Palestinians against each other again. Coincidentally months after the unity government has been formed, which, guess what, was supposed to foster peace.
By the way Israel was founded upon the idea of "Jewish jihad" as you put it.
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Do you have a source for anything of what you just said?
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On July 31 2014 00:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 23:58 Plansix wrote:I think everyone accepts that every problem in the middle east is not the fault of Israel. Thats not the argument being made, only that people use the support of Israel as an excuse to commit violent acts against the supporting party. I personally don't consider it a compelling argument in most cases, as the violent parties would likely just find another excuse. But it is a valid point of view that supporting Israel might put that nation's population at risk. Sure, you can and should blame Israel if they commit war crimes or use excessive measures, but calling them a terrorist state is just completely ridiculous. There is no reason to believe Israel wouldn't genuinely want piece. There is no such thing as a Jewish jihad. All Israel gains from this is dead soldiers and international blame. There is no rationale behind the accusations of Israel as some kind of relentless aggressor.
There is no Israeli Jihad, but there forces within the Israeli government, that actually want to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state and continue indefinite occupation. The two main reasons are:
1. "Divine mandate": The entire region is land promised to Jews by god and therefore rightfully belongs to Israel. Eventually they want to drive all Palestinians out of the area and into the neighboring countries.
2. Military control: Especially the right wing in Israel believe that the Arabs in general are incapable of ever living in peace with Israel. So they believe that a Palestinian state will just be used as a staging ground to intensify the attacks on Israel.
Both opinions are firmly rooted in racism, which is quite common in the region on both sides. And I'm aware that these are not "rational" reasons. And since WhiteDog was so nice to finally admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization, here is an article, that echoes his views, but is written a lot more eloquently.
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On July 31 2014 00:30 Nyxisto wrote:
Do you have a source for anything of what you just said?
It's true.. Israel refused to negotiate with a unity government based on the fact that Hamas was a member of the coalition. The whole point of bringing Hamas into the coalition was to try to reign them in and promote peace.
Israel uses Hamas's inclusion as a scapegoat to avoid negotiations, weakening the Palestinian case for peace. Yet without Hamas's support peace cannot happen.
Israel has done this for a while. They set requirements for them to go to the negotiating table that they know won't be met. That way, the status quo is maintained and they look like the cooperative side.
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No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Why do people hold Israel to such different standards?
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On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country.
Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage.
Don't negotiate with terrorists generally applies when the terrorists are on your land, not the other way around lol
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The conflict in northern Ireland ended when both sides were willing to talk. Judging from their current behavior of air balling rockets into Israel, I don’t think Hamas is there yet.
Talking is good, but only when there is some small level of trust with the other party. Hamas is no where near the point the IRA was at the tail end of the conflict.
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On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage.
Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means to an end, but the actual goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up.
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On July 31 2014 01:10 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage. Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means to an end, but the actual goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up.
Hamas gave up the immediate destruction of Israel in 2006 together with the suicide bombings. It's now postponed for future generations to decide. Whatever that means. And yes they are a terrorist organization, but without involving them in the negotiations, there is no way to achieve peace. So if you want peace in the area, they need to be included and hopefully moderated by the process. Just screaming "Terrorist, Terrorist!" solves nothing. You can still bomb the shit out of Gaza later.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On July 31 2014 01:10 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage. Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means to an end, but the actual goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up.
I think you would be surprised at what could be achieved if Israel just stopped oppressing the Palestinian population.
Its not a hard thing to do, just stop building on their land and punishing their people for their religion, and you may find peace would come surprisingly easily.
You can go on and on about Hamas rejecting peace, but both sides have rejected peace terms in the last few weeks, because neither is willing to make a compromise. Israel is just as determined to take every last square inch of Palestine land as Palestine is to destroy Israel. This is shown by ACTIONS, not propaganda or the words of someone on the internet.
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On July 31 2014 01:19 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:10 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage. Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means to an end, but the actual goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up. I think you would be surprised at what could be achieved if Israel just stopped oppressing the Palestinian population. Its not a hard thing to do, just stop building on their land and punishing their people for their religion, and you may find peace would come surprisingly easily. You can go on and on about Hamas rejecting peace, but both sides have rejected peace terms in the last few weeks, because neither is willing to make a compromise. Israel is just as determined to take every last square inch of Palestine land as Palestine is to destroy Israel. This is shown by ACTIONS, not propaganda or the words of someone on the internet.
Like they did when they withdrew form Gaza? I have not yet heard one person respond to this. If what you're saying is true, how do you explain that right after Israel withdrew rocket attacks increased by 350% ? I would like an answer precisely to that question.
edit:
+ Show Spoiler +
Some important points are the disengagement in 05, the blockade and 'cast lead' in 07/08, and 'Pillar of defense' in 2012.
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Technically there is another way: remove hamas from power. But I don't think the international community wants to put in the effort to do that.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On July 31 2014 01:20 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 31 2014 01:10 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 01:05 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Both the conflict in South Africa and in Northern Ireland could only be resolved after people started to negotiate with terrorist. So this guideline of yours is complete garbage. Yeah, the Northern Ireland terrorists also didn't have the complete destruction of the UK in mind. You guys seriously need to understand that the Hamas is not a liberation army. It is a jihadist organisation for which war is not the means to an end, but the actual goal. They have said so and they have shown that they actually mean it, I'm not making it up. I think you would be surprised at what could be achieved if Israel just stopped oppressing the Palestinian population. Its not a hard thing to do, just stop building on their land and punishing their people for their religion, and you may find peace would come surprisingly easily. You can go on and on about Hamas rejecting peace, but both sides have rejected peace terms in the last few weeks, because neither is willing to make a compromise. Israel is just as determined to take every last square inch of Palestine land as Palestine is to destroy Israel. This is shown by ACTIONS, not propaganda or the words of someone on the internet. Like they did when they withdrew form Gaza? I have not yet heard one person respond to this. If what you're saying is true, how do you explain that right after Israel withdrew rocket attacks increased by 350% ? I would like an answer precisely to that question.
OK let me do some research and get back to you. I'm not fully aware of the circumstances of this.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rEO9Zpm.jpg)
