On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote: They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found.
There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead.
The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force.
Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!):
3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them.
This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs.
Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad.
Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote: They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found.
There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead.
The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force.
Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!):
3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them.
This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs.
Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad.
Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
I agree with this. Israel hasn't been convicted of anything. Sure, there's no doubt that Israel has historically discriminated against Palestinians and Arabs to the point where all non-Jewish residents were clearly second-class citizens, saying that Israel has engaged in "ethnic cleansing" is a bit much.
On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote: They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found.
There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead.
The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force.
Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!):
3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them.
This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs.
Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad.
Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
I agree with this. Israel hasn't been convicted of anything.
The International Court of Justice did conclude in 2004 that the construction of a wall by Israel in the occupied territories was illegal with regards to international law. In addition, in its advisory opinion, the ICJ stated that "The obligations erga omnes violated by Israel are the obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, and certain of its obligations under international humanitarian law."
Which has nothing to do with ethnical cleansing, terrorism or being an apartheid regime or any of the other dozen bs accusations that come up in every other post.
Would shooting teargas canisters at schoolchildren on their way to school qualify as terrorism ? Gee, I wonder what those kids's (spelling) disposition towards Israel will be when they're grown up. Funny thing was the parents were just like "yeah, no, this is actually pretty normal and happens all the time".
Some stuff in there comes pretty close to, if not being, terrorism.
On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote: They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found.
There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead.
The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force.
Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!):
3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them.
This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs.
Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad.
Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
Israel is not a signatory party to the international criminal court, and every single security council resolution against them has been vetoed by one - the USA. It's impossible to convict Israel but that does not mean they are not guilty.
There's a difference between institutionalized war crimes and war crimes committed by individuals. This happened in Iraq, does this make the US a terrorist state? No. If Israeli soldiers are found guilty of war crimes they're going to prison, as do US soldiers.
Also by international law the death of civilians does not constitute a war crime in itself, even if the attacking force knows that the attack might kill civilians.
On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote: They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found.
There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead.
The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force.
Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!):
3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them.
This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs.
Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad.
Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
Israel is not a signatory party to the international criminal court, and every single security council resolution against them has been vetoed by one - the USA. It's impossible to convict Israel but that does not mean they are not guilty.
To my knowledge Israel has never even been accused of genocide,ethnic cleansing, or state terrorism by any international authority(besides the Iranian government, maybe). This is not about whether Israel has used excessive force on occasion,which is debatable. This is about putting Israel on one level with apartheid regimes, American slave owners, and drawing parallels to genocides. All of this is wrong, there simply is no proof for it.
edit: @kwizach you're probably right, care to respond to the rest of the post?
On July 29 2014 01:34 Nyxisto wrote: This is not about whether Israel has used excessive force on occasion, which is debatable.
If by "debatable" you mean it is absolutely true, well-documented, and in fact a practice explicitly followed by the Israeli military, then yes, it is "debatable".
edit in response to your edit: I am not interested in discussing "extreme" accusations, which make your job of defending Israel much easier. I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, a point which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
On July 29 2014 01:34 Nyxisto wrote: There's a difference between institutionalized war crimes and war crimes committed by individuals. This happened in Iraq, does this make the US a terrorist state? No. If Israeli soldiers are found guilty of war crimes they're going to prison, as do US soldiers.
Also by international law the death of civilians does not constitute a war crime in itself, even if the attacking force knows that the attack might kill civilians.
On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote: They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found.
There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead.
The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force.
Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!):
3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them.
This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs.
Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad.
Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
Israel is not a signatory party to the international criminal court, and every single security council resolution against them has been vetoed by one - the USA. It's impossible to convict Israel but that does not mean they are not guilty.
To my knowledge Israel has never even been accused of genocide,ethnic cleansing, or state terrorism by any international authority(besides the Iranian government, maybe). This is not about whether Israel has used excessive force on occasion,which is debatable. This is about putting Israel on one level with apartheid regimes, American slave owners, and drawing parallels to genocides. All of this is wrong, there simply is no proof for it.
I am pretty sure he meant those acts of terrorism. As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing. Apartheid? Palestinian territory is not recognized as a sovereign state, ergo it's part of Izrael. If you think keeping Palestinians in an open prison does not qualify as apartheid, then I pity you.
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing.
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing.
no, it's not. The Arab population of Israel has been steadily growing. That's pretty much the opposite of ethnic cleansing.
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing.
no, it's not. The Arab population of Israel has been steadily growing. That's pretty much the opposite of ethnic cleansing.
"Mass expulsion".
And when exactly has Israel been mass expelling their Arabic citizens?
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
Lets not exaggerate. Natanyahu has been jerking Fatah around for years, the pace of colonization of the West bank hasnt stopped and the basic requirements for a Palestinian state in the West bank isnt the end of new colonization, its the beginning of de-colonization!
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing.
no, it's not. The Arab population of Israel has been steadily growing. That's pretty much the opposite of ethnic cleansing.
"Mass expulsion".
And when exactly has Israel been mass expelling their Arabic citizens?
Why do you think there are millions living in refugee camps then? Look up Nakba or any following exoduses. Similar ethnic cleansing took place in Europe too just a few years before that, but those at least had peace treaties signed by both sides.
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
That is an extremely uninformed statement. No, the reason for the discontinuation of the talks was not "the formation of the unity government". The latter was the final nail in the coffin of the negotiations, but they were already going absolutely nowhere because of Israel's refusal to outline the borders it wants for its state, and Palestinians had given up when they announced the unity government a few days before the announced end of the talks. Abbas conceded to a LOT of Israeli demands, including a border outline supported by the Americans that would have included, on Israel's side, 80 percent of the Israeli settlers' population. Israel did not even agree to outline any border, and proceeded with the announcement of new settlements during the talks, which completely discouraged the Palestinians. This is essentially what has been going on for years - Israeli governments have had in front of them in the person of Abbas a leader willing to negotiate and go quite far in terms of compromising, yet they have simply not shown themselves to be ready to meet him half-way. If you actually want to inform yourself on the topic, I suggest you read this article detailing some of the contents of the recent negotiations.
I'd like to add that there being a unity government should not be a reason for Israel to stop negotiating. In fact, Israel had been complaining for years that it had no negotiating partner with regards to Gaza, and it would be in their interest to indirectly support the more pragmatic wing of Hamas. It is essentially an opportunity to try to bring them to a more moderate stance, which is exactly what Israel should wish for instead of reinforcing its extremists through military attacks.
edit: by the way, please try to correctly indicate who you're quoting in your post, since you responded to someone else in the second part of your previous message without indicating that it was no longer me that you were addressing.
If Israel wanted peace, they would start tto clear the illegal settlements. But they don't do that. They actively settle more land. And that is not done by some right-wing extremists, this is done by the government.
Just end the settlements and Israel can look down on the palestinians and condemn their terrorism. If it still exists afterwards.
You can argue all you want that Hamas is leaving them no choice but to retaliate, but you can't argue that Hamas leaves them no choice but to settle those lands. Israel is pleasing it's right wing extremists and Hamas is happy to provide for reasons and rake the hatred for their own gains.
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing.
no, it's not. The Arab population of Israel has been steadily growing. That's pretty much the opposite of ethnic cleansing.
"Mass expulsion".
And when exactly has Israel been mass expelling their Arabic citizens?
Why do you think there are millions living in refugee camps then? Look up Nakba or any following exoduses. Similar ethnic cleansing took place in Europe too just a few years before that, but those at least had peace treaties signed by both sides.
But you do recognize that they actually fled because of the Palestine war which the Arabs had initiated?
You can argue all you want that Hamas is leaving them no choice but to retaliate, but you can't argue that Hamas leaves them no choice but to settle those lands. Israel is pleasing it's right wing extremists and Hamas is happy to provide for reasons and rake the hatred for their own gains.
Israel's settlements in Gaza have long been abolished. Has it stopped any of the attacks? No, the reaction was to give Hamas the sole control over the Gaza strip.
On July 29 2014 01:45 kwizach wrote: I've repeatedly replied to you by presenting my point about the responsibility of Israel in the crisis since Abbas' arrival to power, which you have conveniently ignored - I'm guessing because you'd have a harder time defending Israel's refusal to actually negotiate with Abbas and the Fatah.
Israel has been negotiating with Abbas and the Fatah for years, the reason for the discontinuation of the peace talks has been the formation of the unity government, because Israel (understandably) is not willing to talk with the Hamas.
As for ethnic cleansing, just look at the maps that track the shrinkage of the Palestinian territory due to illegal settlements. They were provided earlier in the thread. That's the definition of ethnic cleansing.
no, it's not. The Arab population of Israel has been steadily growing. That's pretty much the opposite of ethnic cleansing.
"Mass expulsion".
And when exactly has Israel been mass expelling their Arabic citizens?
Why do you think there are millions living in refugee camps then? Look up Nakba or any following exoduses. Similar ethnic cleansing took place in Europe too just a few years before that, but those at least had peace treaties signed by both sides.
But you do recognize that they actually fled because of the Palestine war which the Arabs had initiated?
This is a myth. Would you agree to be confiscated of your land and be displaced? Look up some zionist records of the time, those people were more warmongering and greedy than many in WW2.
You can argue all you want that Hamas is leaving them no choice but to retaliate, but you can't argue that Hamas leaves them no choice but to settle those lands. Israel is pleasing it's right wing extremists and Hamas is happy to provide for reasons and rake the hatred for their own gains.
Israel's settlements in Gaza have long been abolished. Has it stopped any of the attacks? No, the reaction was to give Hamas the sole control over the Gaza strip.
This is just derailing, what about the West bank settlements? Even you said they were illegal. Why are they still being built by the government then?
How is the Arab-Israeli war a myth? The hundreds of thousands of refugees resulted from precisely that war. Israel was already proposing to grant 100k people the right to return in 1949. If you're going to assign blame how about you start with the parties that started the war?
This is just derailing, what about the West bank settlements? Even you said they were illegal. Why are they still being built by the government then?
Yes, the settlements are illegal. I don't support that they're building more of them. But if you think that the extremism towards Israel is a reaction to the settlements, what are you basing that assertion on? After Israel disengaged from Gaza they didn't elect moderates, they made the Hamas sole authority of Gaza. This isn't derailment. It just goes to show that the radical Palestinian forces can not be appeased.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DmmIVbd.jpg)
