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In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. | ||
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Warlock40
601 Posts
On July 24 2014 11:38 Nyxisto wrote: Given the fact that they are illegally occupying part of a sovereign country shooting down jets of exactly that country, no it's not. That's pretty much true of all rebellions, isn't it? Or are you referring to the external involvement by Russian nationals in the current conflict? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 24 2014 11:43 Warlock40 wrote: That's pretty much true of all rebellions, isn't it? Or are you referring to the external involvement by Russian nationals in the current conflict? The latter. This isn't a justified rebellion. They're influenced and supplied by Russia, because if that wouldn't be the case a few thousand untrained man would probably not be able to fight the Ukrainian army. http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-intel-points-to-russian-rebel-missile-connection-in-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-1405816389 | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
Yesterday on the same newspaper it was posted that Dutch families of the victims called the victims after the crash to check if they managed to survive only to find out strangers speaking in Russian answered the calls (might as well be people who were looking for survivors that heard the phones so it's unclear if it's by looters or helpers looking for survivors near the crash site). src | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
Two journalists fighting over the incident. I guess depending on which side you're on, you will perceive the whole video differently. Not really more information, but you can clearly see how shaken the CNN reporter. He had just visited the crime scene and obviously is loosing his cool after having to listen to his interview partner. | ||
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On July 24 2014 21:32 BlueSpace wrote: Relevant I would say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=92kG2tMBR40 Two journalists fighting over the incident. I guess depending on which side you're on, you will perceive the whole video differently. Not really more information, but you can clearly see how shaken the CNN reporter. He had just visited the crime scene and obviously is loosing his cool after having to listen to his interview partner. Amazing how the comment section on Youtube is full of people bashing CNN. Could these be the famed people paid off by kremlin to post pro-Russia stuff on the internet? | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On July 24 2014 11:38 Nyxisto wrote: Given the fact that they are illegally occupying part of a sovereign country shooting down jets of exactly that country, no it's not. officially it's still a civil war. so it is. | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On July 24 2014 22:41 Pangpootata wrote: Amazing how the comment section on Youtube is full of people bashing CNN. Could these be the famed people paid off by kremlin to post pro-Russia stuff on the internet? I don't think so. As I said, depending on which "side" you're on, your perception of the interview will be very different. Both lost it to some extent. What worries me though is that people are discussing over very complicated scenarios when the most simple version is perfectly plausible. The Plane was accidentally shot down by rebels mistaking it for a Ukrainian military airplane. For example someone suggested earlier in this thread, that the USA might be involved in order to shift attention away from the Israeli invasion to Gaza. This is of course a possible scenario but it is so unlikely, that it should be rejected from what I would call a rational point of view. The simple version requires a not well trained squad of rebels somewhere in Ukraine making a somewhat "small" mistake shooting down a civilian plane. Small in the sense, that due to the complicated systems involved, most experts agree that it can easily happen. The Gaza version requires to some extent the secret collaboration of three different governments (USA, Israel and Ukraine), to conspire to commit mass murder against almost 300 innocent civilians. On top of that the victims are citizens of allied states. Two of these allied states (UK and Australia) have extremely close relations and share regularly secret intelligence information with the USA. Only one of the countries gains something from this. The potential gain is that the outrage in the western press over the military action in Gaza is somewhat reduced. The risk are incalculable because the USA might alienate three of their most important allies (the EU, Australia and UK). I could go on here of why the Gaza version is very implausible, but that is really not the point. There are other theories like that the plane was filled with dead people that the Russian media has put forward which are as unlikely and require huge conspiracies to function. Reason is thrown out of the window I feel in this entire discussion. At the meantime hundreds of people are dead. Their belongings looted and their bodies defiled. All of this is happening at the border of Europe. This is more than just a little depressing to me. So I fully sympathize with the CNN reporter when he is loosing his cool. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 24 2014 21:32 BlueSpace wrote: Relevant I would say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=92kG2tMBR40 Two journalists fighting over the incident. I guess depending on which side you're on, you will perceive the whole video differently. Not really more information, but you can clearly see how shaken the CNN reporter. He had just visited the crime scene and obviously is loosing his cool after having to listen to his interview partner. Honestly, is it just me, or is the RT guy kinda mentally challenged? Frankly, i wanna see a deathmatch between those two now, that RT guy needs to get a good headwashing. What on earth. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
Breaking news (source tagesschau.de) The ukrainian government led by Jazenjuk has resigned. (reason is the failed coalition, it says) edit: confirmed by other news portals as well | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On July 25 2014 00:12 mahrgell wrote: As there is no other Ukraine thread right now... Breaking news (source tagesschau.de) The ukrainian government led by Jazenjuk has resigned. (reason is the failed coalition, it says) edit: confirmed by other news portals as well From what I gather Utar (Klitschko) and Svoboda were part of the coalition government, but they are complaining that russian agents were hampering the parliaments work. To force the government to start a new parliament election process they left the government. Yatsenyuk has resigned, making it possible for the president to dissolve the parliament and start the election. Given the circumstances it seems very unlikely for any other majority to form in the parliament. The new election in parliament has been wanted by the Euro-Maidan so it seems unlikely that anything else will happen. It seems to have very limited relevance for the MH17 situation, though. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On July 25 2014 00:06 m4ini wrote: Honestly, is it just me, or is the RT guy kinda mentally challenged? Frankly, i wanna see a deathmatch between those two now, that RT guy needs to get a good headwashing. What on earth. He seems to know exactly what he is doing. He is acting like every politician: If the question doesn't suit your view, disregard it and give your own story. Cuomo seems to be completely caught by surprise when Lavelle doesn't answer the question in any way shape or form. Lavelle is getting pressured by Cuomo to either defend or attack Putin, which given the vile media-situation in Russia, is an easy choice. Cuomo is not prepared for discussing evidence of the crime since they are still somewhat limited so far (althought the indices are piling up to a level where ignoring them like Lavelle does is very problematic), like always so early in an investigation. Lavelle is pushing the "no evidence-" and "no connections"-narratives to the fullest and ignoring anything Cuomo comes up with, that could give rise to critique of Russia or the rebels. He is not acting as a journalist here, but as a politician and since Cuomo wasn't prepared for that the interview becomes so awkward. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Not that i would have doubts so far, and i actually wouldn't even disagree when he says "ukraine knew about them", since they're no saints either - but that's quite loaded. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
Link here | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On July 25 2014 04:40 Lmui wrote: Pretty new release - NATO's response to Putin/Russia's allegations: Link here Very exhaustive and clear statements. A lot of it is well-supported by sources. Putin is using it as a pretext to expand Russias military presence near european borders HuffingtonPost. The number of conspiracies floating around about what NATO is, is breathtaking. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
On July 24 2014 12:00 Nyxisto wrote: The latter. This isn't a justified rebellion. They're influenced and supplied by Russia, because if that wouldn't be the case a few thousand untrained man would probably not be able to fight the Ukrainian army. http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-intel-points-to-russian-rebel-missile-connection-in-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-1405816389 Them being agitated by Russia might be a cause for illegitimacy (though I'm not sure--who decides if a war is "legitimate?"), why is them being supplied by the russians a mark against? Rebels are frequently armed or supported by foreign powers, from the recent Arab spring uprising all the way back to the American Revolution, or, if you want to go really far back, the Ionian revolt against the Persians. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On July 25 2014 07:58 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Netherlands is sending 40 unarmed Marechaussee (military police) to help the investigators. I don't like it one bit, either send a significant force that can defend itself or send nothing at all. Sending unarmed people who are part of the military to a warzone is only asking for escalation. They won't get the same treatment as journalists... it makes no sense to me .What are unarmed police supposed to do there? Especially if they dont speak Russian they wont even be able to communicate with the separatists or the locals. | ||
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Vladix
Netherlands227 Posts
Together with some airborn unit that worked together with Australia in Afhganistan, Australia would also be sending troops, according to the newspaper. This probaly is not true, since other sources speak of the unarmed mission that someone else mentioned earlier here. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
Even if the rebels shot down the plane (which is the likeliest explanation by far, given their opponent has air superiority), what would it change? It's hardly conceivable that their leadership planned to shoot down a civilian airliner, so we have to assume either individual irresponsibility, incompetence or a sequence of unfortunate events. I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners. | ||
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