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On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote:
I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners.
IIRC there was a no fly zone for commercial aircraft below 31 or 32 thousand feet. There is zero chance that a MANPADS would be able to reach that high even if it could lock on (not enough fuel), and the assumption was that anything that could shoot it down would also be able to identify that it's a civilian aircraft.
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On July 25 2014 17:19 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote:
I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners. IIRC there was a no fly zone for commercial aircraft below 31 or 32 thousand feet. There is zero chance that a MANPADS would be able to reach that high even if it could lock on (not enough fuel), and the assumption was that anything that could shoot it down would also be able to identify that it's a civilian aircraft.
One assumption too many, I guess.
And Air France and British Airways avoided the region, so it was clearly recognized as dangerous by some.
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On July 25 2014 17:19 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote:
I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners. IIRC there was a no fly zone for commercial aircraft below 31 or 32 thousand feet. There is zero chance that a MANPADS would be able to reach that high even if it could lock on (not enough fuel), and the assumption was that anything that could shoot it down would also be able to identify that it's a civilian aircraft.
It was actually a 24k no fly zone. They added a 50% buffer to it for 32k just incase. It is standard operating procedure but like number of lifeboat regulations after Titanic, it might get changed now that something really bad has happened. :\
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On July 25 2014 17:49 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 17:19 Amui wrote:On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote:
I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners. IIRC there was a no fly zone for commercial aircraft below 31 or 32 thousand feet. There is zero chance that a MANPADS would be able to reach that high even if it could lock on (not enough fuel), and the assumption was that anything that could shoot it down would also be able to identify that it's a civilian aircraft. One assumption too many, I guess. And Air France and British Airways avoided the region, so it was clearly recognized as dangerous by some.
They needed training to operate these kind of systems. Which is the entire point. If it can be proven, that the rebels shot down the plane using an advanced military system, the immediate question is, who trained them. This would then heavily implicate Russia and by that show that similar to what happened on the Krim, they are far more involved than they want to admit.
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EU is preparing to raise the stakes and enter level 3 sanctions against Russia.
The targets will be oil and gas industry:
Reuters
Financial markets and future weapon deliveries (France won't sacrifice the Mistral deliveries)
Reuters
The final decission has been delayed for early next week after the commission has specified the sanctions, but it looks like there will be enough of a majority for the strenghtening of the sanctions.
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On July 25 2014 20:54 radiatoren wrote:EU is preparing to raise the stakes and enter level 3 sanctions against Russia. The targets will be oil and gas industry: ReutersFinancial markets and future weapon deliveries (France won't sacrifice the Mistral deliveries) ReutersThe final decission has been delayed for early next week after the commission has specified the sanctions, but it looks like there will be enough of a majority for the strenghtening of the sanctions.
I'm pretty sure, none of the hard hitting sanctions are gonna pass. It's not even the fear of the wrath of mighty Putin but a simple business decision. Which is a shame because there is no way you can put a dent in Russian imperialistic politic without taking some losses yourself, but if I am sure of one thing, it's that, the other way, war, is by far much more costly...
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On July 25 2014 22:23 Jochan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:54 radiatoren wrote:EU is preparing to raise the stakes and enter level 3 sanctions against Russia. The targets will be oil and gas industry: ReutersFinancial markets and future weapon deliveries (France won't sacrifice the Mistral deliveries) ReutersThe final decission has been delayed for early next week after the commission has specified the sanctions, but it looks like there will be enough of a majority for the strenghtening of the sanctions. I'm pretty sure, none of the hard hitting sanctions are gonna pass. It's not even the fear of the wrath of mighty Putin but a simple business decision. Which is a shame because there is no way you can put a dent in Russian imperialistic politic without taking some losses yourself, but if I am sure of one thing, it's that, the other way, war, is by far much more costly...
I don't know what you mean by `hard hitting', if you mean 3rd level sanctions, they cannot truly back out of it now (especially as Russia seems to have escalated the conflict). But if you mean the Mistral sale, there will probably be some compromise, and the same with capital markets and natural resources. But that doesn't mean nothing will be passed next Tuesday.
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I wonder if those mistral ships have some surprise NSA goodies.
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On July 25 2014 22:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 22:23 Jochan wrote:On July 25 2014 20:54 radiatoren wrote:EU is preparing to raise the stakes and enter level 3 sanctions against Russia. The targets will be oil and gas industry: ReutersFinancial markets and future weapon deliveries (France won't sacrifice the Mistral deliveries) ReutersThe final decission has been delayed for early next week after the commission has specified the sanctions, but it looks like there will be enough of a majority for the strenghtening of the sanctions. I'm pretty sure, none of the hard hitting sanctions are gonna pass. It's not even the fear of the wrath of mighty Putin but a simple business decision. Which is a shame because there is no way you can put a dent in Russian imperialistic politic without taking some losses yourself, but if I am sure of one thing, it's that, the other way, war, is by far much more costly... I don't know what you mean by `hard hitting', if you mean 3rd level sanctions, they cannot truly back out of it now (especially as Russia seems to have escalated the conflict). But if you mean the Mistral sale, there will probably be some compromise, and the same with capital markets and natural resources. But that doesn't mean nothing will be passed next Tuesday.
I mean those that hit them the hardest, their natural resources excavation/extraction - export branch which brings 50%+ budget revenue and supporting the recovery of Russian military potential by building them state of the art training facilities (Germans), equipment (French mistrals). Even Dutch can hit the extremely hard, Shell and Phillips are the biggest foreign companies in Russia. But as I said, it's all a mad mans dream.
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On July 25 2014 19:21 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 17:49 Maenander wrote:On July 25 2014 17:19 Amui wrote:On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote:
I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners. IIRC there was a no fly zone for commercial aircraft below 31 or 32 thousand feet. There is zero chance that a MANPADS would be able to reach that high even if it could lock on (not enough fuel), and the assumption was that anything that could shoot it down would also be able to identify that it's a civilian aircraft. One assumption too many, I guess. And Air France and British Airways avoided the region, so it was clearly recognized as dangerous by some. They needed training to operate these kind of systems. Which is the entire point. If it can be proven, that the rebels shot down the plane using an advanced military system, the immediate question is, who trained them. This would then heavily implicate Russia and by that show that similar to what happened on the Krim, they are far more involved than they want to admit.
A possibility which no one mentioned yet in any media afaik is Ukrainian deserters trained on the equipment who joined the rebels. Both countries use basically the same military equipment out of obvious historical reasons and there were turncoats. It's not my intent to defend Russia, but you can't just completely exclude that!
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On July 25 2014 22:48 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 19:21 BlueSpace wrote:On July 25 2014 17:49 Maenander wrote:On July 25 2014 17:19 Amui wrote:On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote:
I am more concerned that airlines including the German Lufthansa allowed their planes to fly over a war zone with forces clearly capable of shooting down airliners. IIRC there was a no fly zone for commercial aircraft below 31 or 32 thousand feet. There is zero chance that a MANPADS would be able to reach that high even if it could lock on (not enough fuel), and the assumption was that anything that could shoot it down would also be able to identify that it's a civilian aircraft. One assumption too many, I guess. And Air France and British Airways avoided the region, so it was clearly recognized as dangerous by some. They needed training to operate these kind of systems. Which is the entire point. If it can be proven, that the rebels shot down the plane using an advanced military system, the immediate question is, who trained them. This would then heavily implicate Russia and by that show that similar to what happened on the Krim, they are far more involved than they want to admit. A possibility which no one mentioned yet in any media afaik is Ukrainian deserters trained on the equipment who joined the rebels. Both countries use basically the same military equipment out of obvious historical reasons and there were turncoats. It's not my intent to defend Russia, but you can't just completely exclude that!
It's not defending russia anyway.
Of course it's possible that ukrainian turncoats could've trained people on BUK Systems. I might go so far to say that they could've shot it anyway (because for all we know at the moment, they were told it's a military transporter), without training somebody.
That still begs the question where those BUKs came from. According to the rebels, they're russian weaponsystems.
edit: but honestly? I don't think that russian military needs the order of the kreml to send those BUKs. I bet you alot of money that russian chiefs of military installations in that region are eager to use their material anyway. I honestly don't believe that their "discipline" in that regard is anywhere near european/US standards.
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When this story started and the separatists still thought they downed another military transport, there were posts on twitter facebook/vkontakte? of the separatists bragging about having stolen an Ukrainian BUK system. They also tweeted right after the crash, that THEY downed another plane. After the plane turned out to be civil, they tried to cover up and deleted everything. They were successful in the end it seems, or is my memory that tainted? I'm really sure about that, It's just hard googling sources quickly and i don't have time atm, sry!
All right:
Although most Buk-M1 and Buk-M2 SAMs remain under Ukrainian and Russian military control, reports as early as June 29 from both sides in the Ukraine conflict indicate that Donetsk separatist paramilitaries had captured a Buk-M2 SAM unit.
www.recordedfuture.com
I don't know that source, just a quick find.
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A mass grave has been discovered in the Slavyansk area. It is still unknown what has happened, but so far 8 bodies have been dug up. Locals estimate about 17 bodies in total in the grave. I can't say it has that much to do with the plane downing, but it doesn't reflect well on the way the separatist controlled areas have functioned.
Today, Ukrainian authorities exhumed a mass grave in Sloviansk, in eastern Ukraine. By the time I left the site, they had discovered eight decomposed bodies and they were still searching for more...
... It’s too soon to say whether the people buried there were victims of a crime. Several local residents believed the bodies came from the nearby morgue. At the time the bodies were allegedly dumped, there was no electricity in parts of Sloviansk, which would have caused a problem for refrigeration facilities used to store bodies in the morgue. When the women asked the insurgents who was being buried, the insurgents said they were unidentified bodies.
Human Rights Watch.
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On July 25 2014 23:41 r00ty wrote:When this story started and the separatists still thought they downed another military transport, there were posts on twitter facebook/vkontakte? of the separatists bragging about having stolen an Ukrainian BUK system. They also tweeted right after the crash, that THEY downed another plane. After the plane turned out to be civil, they tried to cover up and deleted everything. They were successful in the end it seems, or is my memory that tainted? I'm really sure about that, It's just hard googling sources quickly and i don't have time atm, sry! All right: Show nested quote +Although most Buk-M1 and Buk-M2 SAMs remain under Ukrainian and Russian military control, reports as early as June 29 from both sides in the Ukraine conflict indicate that Donetsk separatist paramilitaries had captured a Buk-M2 SAM unit. www.recordedfuture.comI don't know that source, just a quick find.
There's more than one rebel (commander) saying that BUKs came from russia, and they think that's where they are again now.
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On July 25 2014 23:44 radiatoren wrote:A mass grave has been discovered in the Slavyansk area. It is still unknown what has happened, but so far 8 bodies have been dug up. Locals estimate about 17 bodies in total in the grave. I can't say it has that much to do with the plane downing, but it doesn't reflect well on the way the separatist controlled areas have functioned. Show nested quote +Today, Ukrainian authorities exhumed a mass grave in Sloviansk, in eastern Ukraine. By the time I left the site, they had discovered eight decomposed bodies and they were still searching for more...
... It’s too soon to say whether the people buried there were victims of a crime. Several local residents believed the bodies came from the nearby morgue. At the time the bodies were allegedly dumped, there was no electricity in parts of Sloviansk, which would have caused a problem for refrigeration facilities used to store bodies in the morgue. When the women asked the insurgents who was being buried, the insurgents said they were unidentified bodies. Human Rights Watch.
kiev regime cut off water and electricity to slovyansk and shelled it indiscriminately with artilley fire. what incompetence by the burgenioning novorussians not to ask putin to double the ice-cube supply so they could keep the corpses in the morgue from decomposing.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 26 2014 01:18 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:44 radiatoren wrote:A mass grave has been discovered in the Slavyansk area. It is still unknown what has happened, but so far 8 bodies have been dug up. Locals estimate about 17 bodies in total in the grave. I can't say it has that much to do with the plane downing, but it doesn't reflect well on the way the separatist controlled areas have functioned. Today, Ukrainian authorities exhumed a mass grave in Sloviansk, in eastern Ukraine. By the time I left the site, they had discovered eight decomposed bodies and they were still searching for more...
... It’s too soon to say whether the people buried there were victims of a crime. Several local residents believed the bodies came from the nearby morgue. At the time the bodies were allegedly dumped, there was no electricity in parts of Sloviansk, which would have caused a problem for refrigeration facilities used to store bodies in the morgue. When the women asked the insurgents who was being buried, the insurgents said they were unidentified bodies. Human Rights Watch. kiev regime cut off water and electricity to slovyansk and shelled it indiscriminately with artilley fire. what incompetence by the burgenioning novorussians not to ask putin to double the ice-cube supply so they could keep the corpses in the morgue from decomposing.
No obviously, that's what every country would do. Dig a hole, throw the bodies in and let another party discover what happened there.
PS: no they don't. They bring in a diesel-generator to keep the fridges going.
Luckily, this thread isn't about the morgue, so let's stick to the topic.
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ah ofc, clearly someone, maybe rebels, maybe for no reason, didn't bring the diesel-generators they maybe had at the ready, that putin maybe sent to them, maybe along with diesel, so they could maybe be able to keep the fridges cold, where the bodies might have been starting to rot. bodies of people who maybe died at some point during this ongoing civil-war, maybe due to torture by what maybe was russian spetznaz. case solved, m4ini.
what incompetence.
it's not from russian or ukrainian source, so it's neutral by default. it amounts to allegations of rumors from locals stemming from a part-time american propaganda outlet, it might be something that might not reflect well on what might be novorussians some time in the future.
i was clearly out of line with my critique. my apologies.
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On July 26 2014 01:50 nunez wrote:
ah ofc, clearly someone, maybe rebels, maybe for no reason, didn't bring the diesel-generators they maybe had at the ready, that putin maybe sent to them, maybe along with diesel, so they could maybe be able to keep the fridges cold, where the bodies might have been starting to rot. bodies of people who maybe died at some point during this ongoing civil-war, maybe due to torture by what maybe was russian spetznaz. case solved, m4ini.
what incompetence.
it's not from russian or ukrainian source, so it's neutral by default. it amounts to allegations of rumors from locals stemming from a part-time american propaganda outlet, it might be something that might not reflect well on what might be novorussians some time in the future.
i was clearly out of line with my critique. my apologies.
God you're an idiot, sorry.
User was warned for this post
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On July 26 2014 01:50 nunez wrote:
ah ofc, clearly someone, maybe rebels, maybe for no reason, didn't bring the diesel-generators they maybe had at the ready, that putin maybe sent to them, maybe along with diesel, so they could maybe be able to keep the fridges cold, where the bodies might have been starting to rot. bodies of people who maybe died at some point during this ongoing civil-war, maybe due to torture by what maybe was russian spetznaz. case solved, m4ini.
what incompetence.
it's not from russian or ukrainian source, so it's neutral by default. it amounts to allegations of rumors from locals stemming from a part-time american propaganda outlet, it might be something that might not reflect well on what might be novorussians some time in the future.
i was clearly out of line with my critique. my apologies.
Actually the comment about them being unidentified and being dumped in a mass grave instead of separate graves was what I was getting on. If they don't bother identifying bodies and separately bury people, the situation is pretty uncontrolled. Just like the reports of what happened at the crash sites.
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show me some controlled civil-wars please.
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EPT
