Malaysian airliner shot down over Eastern Ukraine - Page 68

Unreleased data from a black box retrieved from the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine show findings consistent with the plane's fuselage being hit multiple times by shrapnel from a missile explosion.

"It did what it was designed to do," a European air safety official told CBS News, "bring down airplanes."

The official described the finding as "massive explosive decompression."
Source.

On July 28 2014 00:03 Ghanburighan wrote:
If the following map is accurate, there Ukrainian army is trying to push a wedge between Donetsk and Lugansk, but that will bring the fighting close to the plane crash site.

SHAKHTARSK, Ukraine — Government forces launched an offensive Sunday to retake a strategically important corridor in the country’s east, potentially depriving rebels of a key supply corridor from the Russian border but complicating experts’ efforts to reach the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 crash site.

Loud, constant shelling echoed through Shakhtarsk, a mining town about 18 miles from the crash site, on Sunday afternoon, prompting locals to block off roads and shutter up shops. Rebel checkpoints into town were deserted, while tanks headed in the direction of the fighting. A thick cloud of black smoke rose up from the town’s east.
Source.

On July 28 2014 00:36 Acrofales wrote:
I've been searching for info, but while more and more proof is coming available that the plane was shot down by a missile, I can't find any evidence as to what missile and where it was shot from. Seeing as that is the key evidence in assigning culpability, where is it? Are the US and EU just jumping to the conclusion that Russia is the root cause to impose more sanctions, or have they given any further evidence?

On July 28 2014 00:36 Acrofales wrote:
I've been searching for info, but while more and more proof is coming available that the plane was shot down by a missile, I can't find any evidence as to what missile and where it was shot from. Seeing as that is the key evidence in assigning culpability, where is it? Are the US and EU just jumping to the conclusion that Russia is the root cause to impose more sanctions, or have they given any further evidence?

On July 28 2014 00:36 Acrofales wrote:
I've been searching for info, but while more and more proof is coming available that the plane was shot down by a missile, I can't find any evidence as to what missile and where it was shot from. Seeing as that is the key evidence in assigning culpability, where is it? Are the US and EU just jumping to the conclusion that Russia is the root cause to impose more sanctions, or have they given any further evidence?

On July 28 2014 01:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Satellite images released by the US saying that Russia is indeed firing from within their own borders at Ukrainian troops.

https://twitter.com/euromaidan/status/493385928493514752/photo/1

On July 28 2014 01:32 Gorsameth wrote:

Unless it directly relates to the topic can you take it to the other Ukraine thread please. Don't need to drag the overarching war into this thread.

On July 28 2014 02:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:

The other Ukraine thread got closed a long time ago, but I agree with you. However, what I'm curious about is why are the Russians using any amount of force (they're imitating the US too much), and if they're planning on using force, why so little? It doesn't make sense from a military context. Within hours they could clear Ukrainian forces near the border just with artillery/missile strikes. I realize I can't condemn the Russians without being the most self-righteous asshat alive (see my country), but I'll do it anyways. I think it is time for the nazis in the Kremlin to stop. It certainly is not helping them in any manner by continuing anything, so why continue?. In addition, Ukraine is an impoverished, failed state, made further worse by this civil war. Shouldn't that be enough for their sinister plans?

On July 28 2014 02:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:

The other Ukraine thread got closed a long time ago, but I agree with you. However, what I'm curious about is why are the Russians using any amount of force (they're imitating the US too much), and if they're planning on using force, why so little? It doesn't make sense from a military context. Within hours they could clear Ukrainian forces near the border just with artillery/missile strikes. I realize I can't condemn the Russians without being the most self-righteous asshat alive (see my country), but I'll do it anyways. I think it is time for the nazis in the Kremlin to stop. It certainly is not helping them in any manner by continuing anything, so why continue?. In addition, Ukraine is an impoverished, failed state, made further worse by this civil war. Shouldn't that be enough for their sinister plans?

On July 28 2014 02:19 Nyxisto wrote:

Because Russia has created this new kind of dirty warfare that is a weird mix of indirectly supporting paramilitary troops, holding fake elections while having military without nationality markings present, spreading misinformation through the media and just trying to confuse everyone about what is actually happening. They're applying enough force to get what they want over a certain amount of time, but Russia does it in a way for which no real precedent exists.

It kind of works because no one really knows how to react. Money on RT was well spent because there is a ridiculous amount of support for Putin in Western nations, and because it is not completely clear what Russia is trying to achieve the US and Europe have trouble coordinating their efforts.

On July 28 2014 02:52 Sub40APM wrote:

Because its domestic politics. You dont whip up the population with stories of European homo-nazis running amok committing genocide of Russians one minute and the next minute change your mind. Especially not when the Central Bank raised the interest rates to 8 percent and the already creaky economy is grinding to a halt.

On July 28 2014 02:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:

This is the first time I hear about homo-nazis committing genocide haha. Allegedly though, Russia has a lot of influence on people in other European countries too, at least per Nyxisto's and others' comments. I'm sure they're doing that without silly stories of nazi genocides that I'm sure Russians nevermind everyone else would find absurd. The Russian culture is pretty big on political skepticism as far as I'm aware. Also, I don't think this has anything to do with the Russian government deciding to change their mind. Several months of time is not "one minute". It would be logical in many ways to remove soldiers from the border again, and put in all their propaganda about how they're fine with things in Ukraine after talks/agreements, blah blah blah, and leave it at that. If they wanted to stop, they could, and no big deal for them. The only loser out of all this is Ukraine. But Russia likes to bring unnecessary pain and have dick contests in Europe with the US.

On July 28 2014 02:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
This is the first time I hear about homo-nazis committing genocide haha. Allegedly though, Russia has a lot of influence on people in other European countries too, at least per Nyxisto's and others' comments. I'm sure they're doing that without silly stories of nazi genocides that I'm sure Russians nevermind everyone else would find absurd. The Russian culture is pretty big on political skepticism as far as I'm aware. Also, I don't think this has anything to do with the Russian government deciding to change their mind. Several months of time is not "one minute". It would be logical in many ways to remove soldiers from the border again, and put in all their propaganda about how they're fine with things in Ukraine after talks/agreements, blah blah blah, and leave it at that. If they wanted to stop, they could, and no big deal for them. The only loser out of all this is Ukraine. But Russia likes to bring unnecessary pain and have dick contests in Europe with the US.

On July 28 2014 02:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:


The US-Russia tug of war is imba. But, as you note, the Russians are crafty. They use a rapier where the US uses a club. I don't think Russian propaganda owns other European countries to the degree you seem to imply, unless Russia is loomynarty. People in Europe outside Russia don't go supporting Putin, especially when it comes to Russian aggression, without a decent reason. Maybe they're sick of the US bossing them? Only thing that makes sense, really. I'd be very concerned otherwise.
What I think it shows more than anything is how much influence/domination the US has lost in many of these European countries, and this is probably Russia's biggest victory from all of this. It was only 20 years ago when everyone and their mother would jump on board to do whatever the US commanded. But today's world is a lot different. Most shocking, when people are willing to support what is against their own national interests, there's something seriously wrong going on. Now if you're saying that's what's going on, then I don't know what to tell you. It's like "let's support Bane because he's badass" kind of logic.



This is the first time I hear about homo-nazis committing genocide haha. Allegedly though, Russia has a lot of influence on people in other European countries too, at least per Nyxisto's and others' comments. I'm sure they're doing that without silly stories of nazi genocides that I'm sure Russians nevermind everyone else would find absurd. The Russian culture is pretty big on political skepticism as far as I'm aware. Also, I don't think this has anything to do with the Russian government deciding to change their mind. Several months of time is not "one minute". It would be logical in many ways to remove soldiers from the border again, and put in all their propaganda about how they're fine with things in Ukraine after talks/agreements, blah blah blah, and leave it at that. If they wanted to stop, they could, and no big deal for them. The only loser out of all this is Ukraine. But Russia likes to bring unnecessary pain and have dick contests in Europe with the US.

On July 28 2014 02:19 Nyxisto wrote:

Because Russia has created this new kind of dirty warfare that is a weird mix of indirectly supporting paramilitary troops, holding fake elections while having military without nationality markings present, spreading misinformation through the media and just trying to confuse everyone about what is actually happening. They're applying enough force to get what they want over a certain amount of time, but Russia does it in a way for which no real precedent exists.

It kind of works because no one really knows how to react. Money on RT was well spent because there is a ridiculous amount of support for Putin in Western nations, and because it is not completely clear what Russia is trying to achieve the US and Europe have trouble coordinating their efforts.

On July 28 2014 07:07 DrCooper wrote:

It really isn't a new kind of dirty warfare. Only the annexation. (However, it doesn't seem that far fetched that on an island, where most people speak russian, have russian ancestry and people who feel russian want to be part of russia. Afterall we support self determination of peoples)
The U.S has bolstered extremist groups before (in Central America for example)

On July 28 2014 08:15 BlueSpace wrote:


1. Russia knew that the Krim was mainly Russian when they gave it to Ukraine initially. Furthermore as has been pointed out before in this thread, the borders of Ukraine were accepted after the fall of the Soviet Union in exchange for their nuclear arsenal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances).

2. Russia doesn't give a shit about the self-determination of people. Or please explain in that context Russia's policy regarding the Caucasus. The Americans also don't give a shit about that, but that's another issue. And during the cold war Russia and US both supported plenty of extremist organizations in order to hinder each other, but again off-topic.

3. Talking about Russia's respect for the self-determination of people and the Crimean peninsula at the same time shows a complete lack of historic knowledge on your side. You do realize, that before the 20th century the majority of population there was Muslim, the so called Crimean Tatars. All of them were deported by Stalin, which is the only reason why the population there is mainly Russian. They ethnically cleansed the region around 80 years ago and use that now as an argument to annex it. Only some of the Crimean Tatars returned which by the way (big surprise) don't really trust the Russians. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Culture)