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On December 16 2018 07:55 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2018 07:07 Sent. wrote:On December 16 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On December 16 2018 06:18 Sent. wrote:
Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum. I don't believe the concept of leaving the EU was a thing at the time of the Scottish independence referendum. Infact I seem to remember that not being in the EU after leaving the UK played a role in making the No vote win. Your argument doesn't seem to make any sense. If you believe an independent Scotland would be forced to spend a signifcant amount of time outside of the EU if it did choose to secede then yes, my argument might not make sense to you. I don't know if that requires an explanation. I think it doesn't but just in case: To me it's obvious that all three parties (Scotland, the EU and the Formely United Kingdom, still governed by Cameron) would be interested in arranging a swift transition. The situation is not comparable to the one with Catalonia where Spain would use its veto powers to keep the rebels out. But you are not talking about "the EU" here. You are talking about every single country within the EU having to agree. And some of them who have their own troubles with regions wanting to secede (like spain) might not want to give them any further reason to think that that would be a good idea. If spain doesn't really care about scotland (and why should it?), but think that allowing scotland to join the EU after leaving their overlord might give the catalonians similar ideas, they might get the idea of not allowing that. Which they have the power to do. Which is a valid risk that at least some scots might have taken into consideration when thinking about leaving the UK. And if you position is that it is very important for scotland to be within the EU, why would you take that risk? Especially if you can't see into the future and don't know that England will be idiotic enough to drag the whole of the UK out of the EU with them just a few years later, a fact of which there was no indication whatsoever of at the time of the scotland referendum. At that point, it seemed like staying within the UK was the best way to make sure that you stay within the EU. Obviously in hindsight that was incorrect.
I agree that a few countries like Spain would consider blocking Scotland from joining the union, but I think those countries would eventually give in to the pressure of other members. How do you even justify taking such position without making yourself look like a huge asshole?
Yo guys, we'll have to keep that perfectly functional, Western European democracy whose ~$200 billion gdp is alreadly strongly tied with ours because they chose to become independent in a legitimate referendum. Nations using the right of self determination is something we absolutely cannot tolerate in the European Union.
It sounds indefensible. I find it hard to believe other members wouldn't try to motivate the Spanish government to change its mind.
I admit that I might be wrong on that, though. The EU seems to be fine with Greece blocking Macedonia from joining purely because it doesn't like its name. I think it's because other members simply don't consider Macedonia worth standing up for, but I acknowledge that I might be underestimating the importance of Scotland.
And I maintain that the Scots who voted "No" back then should blame themselves. They chose trusting the bigger England instead of taking their fate into their own hands. To be clear, I'm not saying their choice was irrational, just that they should accept the unfortunate consequences.
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On December 16 2018 09:02 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2018 07:55 Simberto wrote:On December 16 2018 07:07 Sent. wrote:On December 16 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On December 16 2018 06:18 Sent. wrote:
Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum. I don't believe the concept of leaving the EU was a thing at the time of the Scottish independence referendum. Infact I seem to remember that not being in the EU after leaving the UK played a role in making the No vote win. Your argument doesn't seem to make any sense. If you believe an independent Scotland would be forced to spend a signifcant amount of time outside of the EU if it did choose to secede then yes, my argument might not make sense to you. I don't know if that requires an explanation. I think it doesn't but just in case: To me it's obvious that all three parties (Scotland, the EU and the Formely United Kingdom, still governed by Cameron) would be interested in arranging a swift transition. The situation is not comparable to the one with Catalonia where Spain would use its veto powers to keep the rebels out. But you are not talking about "the EU" here. You are talking about every single country within the EU having to agree. And some of them who have their own troubles with regions wanting to secede (like spain) might not want to give them any further reason to think that that would be a good idea. If spain doesn't really care about scotland (and why should it?), but think that allowing scotland to join the EU after leaving their overlord might give the catalonians similar ideas, they might get the idea of not allowing that. Which they have the power to do. Which is a valid risk that at least some scots might have taken into consideration when thinking about leaving the UK. And if you position is that it is very important for scotland to be within the EU, why would you take that risk? Especially if you can't see into the future and don't know that England will be idiotic enough to drag the whole of the UK out of the EU with them just a few years later, a fact of which there was no indication whatsoever of at the time of the scotland referendum. At that point, it seemed like staying within the UK was the best way to make sure that you stay within the EU. Obviously in hindsight that was incorrect. I agree that a few countries like Spain would consider blocking Scotland from joining the union, but I think those countries would eventually give in to the pressure of other members. How do you even justify taking such position without making yourself look like a huge asshole? Show nested quote +Yo guys, we'll have to keep that perfectly functional, Western European democracy whose ~$200 billion gdp is alreadly strongly tied with ours because they chose to become independent in a legitimate referendum. Nations using the right of self determination is something we absolutely cannot tolerate in the European Union. It sounds indefensible. I find it hard to believe other members wouldn't try to motivate the Spanish government to change its mind. I admit that I might be wrong on that, though. The EU seems to be fine with Greece blocking Macedonia from joining purely because it doesn't like its name. I think it's because other members simply don't consider Macedonia worth standing up for, but I acknowledge that I might be underestimating the importance of Scotland. And I maintain that the Scots who voted "No" back then should blame themselves. They chose trusting the bigger England instead of taking their fate into their own hands. To be clear, I'm not saying their choice was irrational, just that they should accept the unfortunate consequences.
That's nonsensical.
Scotland is undeniably stronger inside the EU & in the UK. Cameron offered them both. Had the position been 'choose us or the EU' Scotland would have voted to leave the UK without question. You're saying they should blame themselves for trusting the UK (okay, given our history they probably should know better by now) and accept that something they didn't want is now being thrust upon them when they were specifically promised the opposite.
Hindsight is 20/20.
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So May is obviously stalling in an attempt to put parliament against the wall and she is currently getting called out for it.
But do all the MP's realize that the deal was actually a negotiation with another party (compromised of 27 different entities at that). Or is this some kind of deficiency they share with the now late (of teamliquid) bardtown?
You can't just go "Well we don't like this deal can we have another one please?". Sure we all knew they were obstructionistic twats but do they do realize it's this or hard brexit? What possible incentive would the EU have to encourage this? Guaranteed to backfire as the next round of negotiations get voted down because it's not perfect, repeat to infinity.
Why not sit down and work out what it would take to get it to work so May can actually use this month to see what she can get for assurance.
What's the alternative? Vote down the proposal now and then change the tune and vote for it again next year when you realize there are no more options?
Or is this just some political ploy for ending up staying in the EU?
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The problem is that once again the position is impossible.
There can be no hard Irish border.
There can be no customs union between the UK and EU.
The two cannot co-exist. If there is to be no hard border the UK must accept EU customs rules, else it becomes a giant hole in the EU's customs border.
I understand parliament doesn't want to be stuck in a potentially indefinite customs union where the UK still has to obey all the EU regulations and I understand that May's deal is horribly vague on specifics on how this gets resolved but that is because the 2 goals are opposed to one-another.
Just accept the hard border between Ireland and N-Ireland because its going to happen anyway when the deal inevitably falls through and we get the 'hard Brexit without feeling responsible' that the Leavers have always wanted.
ps.
I also loved the political bomb Blair left behind when he said to ignore the will of the people and just have a second referendum instead so they could stay in the EU.
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I feel like some nation has to take it in the teeth before other governments realize they can’t just ride out this wave of anti intellectualism and populism that is griping us all. Right now everyone is just looking to the next election cycle due to the lack of long term consequences associated with it and everyone is just hoping it will go away. But that is lie, because the one thing I learned from 2008 is being saved from the brink of disaster just makes people believe it wasn’t that big of a deal in the first place. I am afraid the UK is signing up to be that object lesson and there is no stopping them.
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To be fair, the brexit chaos allready seems to have had an effect on national referendums in Switzerland. People look at britain (and Trump) and are like: "not in my backyard!".
In germany the AFD is growing/big but major gains are actually the greens (cause the SPD finally gets what they deserve for Schröder).
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Lol DUP backing May in vote, Tory back benches already rallying in support. Rees Mogg stands up in parliament saying he backs May now she won the leadership vote of the party. Haha, Corbyn just committed political suicide again. He has to now when they lose said vote change party to complete remain. What a strange few hours xd
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On December 18 2018 05:13 Pandemona wrote:
Lol DUP backing May in vote, Tory back benches already rallying in support. Rees Mogg stands up in parliament saying he backs May now she won the leadership vote of the party. Haha, Corbyn just committed political suicide again. He has to now when they lose said vote change party to complete remain. What a strange few hours xd
The vote won't even take place because its not a confidence vote in the government, its a vote on May so Government can just ignore it and not make any time for it, Labour have no opposition day motions left at the moment so they can't force it either.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
what happened to corbyn the opposition leader
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On December 18 2018 18:15 ahswtini wrote:
what happened to corbyn the opposition leader
Nothing. Why do you ask?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On December 18 2018 18:22 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2018 18:15 ahswtini wrote:
what happened to corbyn the opposition leader Nothing. Why do you ask?
i'm asking, why is he making the largely toothless play of a no confidence vote against the PM, and not a vote against the government
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On December 18 2018 18:42 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2018 18:22 iamthedave wrote:On December 18 2018 18:15 ahswtini wrote:
what happened to corbyn the opposition leader Nothing. Why do you ask? i'm asking, why is he making the largely toothless play of a no confidence vote against the PM, and not a vote against the government
Because they are trying to apply pressure without shooting their load too early I think. They wouldn't have the votes to win a no confidence vote against the government, and hopefully Corbyn has the sense to see that most people in parliament see him as the worse option.
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A pretty strange motion all things considered. Since Corbyn supports Brexit, and the vote on May's deal was delayed precisely because it would not be passed, he has no interest to try to force fresh elections where parliament may have a majority of MP's who favour to remain in the EU.
He's just being contrary for the sake of being contrary; not because it can affect the outcome of anything in particular: in this case heading for a hard brexit, which he favours in any case.
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On December 18 2018 19:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
A pretty strange motion all things considered. Since Corbyn supports Brexit, and the vote on May's deal was delayed precisely because it would not be passed, he has no interest to try to force fresh elections where parliament may have a majority of MP's who favour to remain in the EU.
He's just being contrary for the sake of being contrary; not because it can affect the outcome of anything in particular: in this case heading for a hard brexit, which he favours in any case.
It's such a bizarre world when the Labour voters - who overwhelmingly support Corbyn - also overwhelmingly support staying in the EU, while Corbyn is a hard leave guy and Theresa May, who they hate, is a solid remainer.
everything's topsy-turvy right now.
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He voted remain though, didn't he? I wouldn't say he's a hard brexit guy, much of that comes from being leader of a party with a policy to respect the result of the referendum.
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I don't know what he voted for, but Corbyn is a hard brexit guy. He absolutely wants UK to leave the EU. Funny old world isn't it?
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On December 19 2018 01:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I don't know what he voted for, but Corbyn is a hard brexit guy. He absolutely wants UK to leave the EU. Funny old world isn't it?
I always wondered why Labor couldn’t get more support given the dysfunction of the UK government right now, but then I found out that their leader basically supports the most extreme option when it comes to Brexit.
Cynically, I sort of wonder if Corbyn wants the hard Brexit to happen and the economy to crash under the theory that Labor would sweep in the next election and he would be in power. The only thing better than getting exactly what you want is to be able to blame all the fall out on the opposition party.
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On December 19 2018 01:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I don't know what he voted for, but Corbyn is a hard brexit guy. He absolutely wants UK to leave the EU. Funny old world isn't it?
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/745886722987294720
I've seen harder Brexiteers. Being critcal of the EU isn't the same as wanting to leave the union. Everyone in Sweden is critical, no one wants to leave.
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Maybe so, but Corbyn is all for a hard brexit. His actions and his words all speak volumes more than a secret vote. He is in the position of being head of a party that nominally represents those who want to remain.
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On December 19 2018 02:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Maybe so, but Corbyn is all for a hard brexit. His actions and his words all speak volumes more than a secret vote. He is in the position of being head of a party that nominally represents those who want to remain.
Oh come on, secret vote? There was quite the Campaign leading up to the vote. Just from a quick google search I found statements from 2013-2015 where he consistently states how he's unhappy with the European Union but how he wants to stay and fight for a better Europe.
I'm confident that what he's looking for now is for May's deal to be off the table so he can officially support a second referendum when it's either that or no-deal. As long as a deal is possible he can not support a second referendum. We'll see once May's deal is voted down.
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