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On December 13 2018 08:51 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Mogg calling for May to resign is typical stupidity from that wing of the party. Like, what the fuck do they think is going to happen if May resigns, leaving us with no PM for several months leading directly into Brexit?
Basically exactly what they want, is gonna happen.
Except it isn't, because if they kick May out the Party takes massive damage in the process. The Tories are already getting hammered in the public sphere (that's usually why they activate Backstab Mode), but getting rid of May isn't going to boost them. The public is blaming the party. Dropping May just makes them look even worse and basically hands the next election to Labour on a platter.
Not that I think the Tories have much of a hope of stopping Labour next time either way. Corbyn's rep has recovered, the Labour rebels know they can't get rid of him, and the Tories have burned down pretty much every candidate they could run over the Brexit period (I mean, David Davis, of all people, is considered a reasonable side bet after Gove and Johnson).
I figured he'd be PM eventually, and it looks like his time is coming.
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On December 14 2018 00:18 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2018 08:51 m4ini wrote:Mogg calling for May to resign is typical stupidity from that wing of the party. Like, what the fuck do they think is going to happen if May resigns, leaving us with no PM for several months leading directly into Brexit?
Basically exactly what they want, is gonna happen. Except it isn't, because if they kick May out the Party takes massive damage in the process. The Tories are already getting hammered in the public sphere (that's usually why they activate Backstab Mode), but getting rid of May isn't going to boost them. The public is blaming the party. Dropping May just makes them look even worse and basically hands the next election to Labour on a platter. Not that I think the Tories have much of a hope of stopping Labour next time either way. Corbyn's rep has recovered, the Labour rebels know they can't get rid of him, and the Tories have burned down pretty much every candidate they could run over the Brexit period (I mean, David Davis, of all people, is considered a reasonable side bet after Gove and Johnson). I figured he'd be PM eventually, and it looks like his time is coming.
I am not sure tbh, I would say it would go to Gove or Rudd
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On December 14 2018 00:18 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2018 08:51 m4ini wrote:Mogg calling for May to resign is typical stupidity from that wing of the party. Like, what the fuck do they think is going to happen if May resigns, leaving us with no PM for several months leading directly into Brexit?
Basically exactly what they want, is gonna happen. Except it isn't, because if they kick May out the Party takes massive damage in the process. The Tories are already getting hammered in the public sphere (that's usually why they activate Backstab Mode), but getting rid of May isn't going to boost them. The public is blaming the party. Dropping May just makes them look even worse and basically hands the next election to Labour on a platter. Not that I think the Tories have much of a hope of stopping Labour next time either way. Corbyn's rep has recovered, the Labour rebels know they can't get rid of him, and the Tories have burned down pretty much every candidate they could run over the Brexit period (I mean, David Davis, of all people, is considered a reasonable side bet after Gove and Johnson). I figured he'd be PM eventually, and it looks like his time is coming.
I'm sorry, i must've missed the part where the tories gave any fuck about public opinion in the last few years.
My bad i suppose.
Here's reality. Ever since i moved to the UK, and that's roughly 6 years ago, tories didn't give a shit about public opinion. It's a party literally made out of backstabbers and intrigants, only in for their own gain. Not just obvious clusterfucks like Boris Johnson. I have not once seen or heard anything of a tory that actually made sense for the majority of the country.
The reason the party didn't take much damage is because morons were listening harder to when they blasted the EU and immigrants for problems that were entirely the UKs responsibility.
If they kick out May, they get the Brexit they want. From the get go they made clear that they actually don't want a deal, it was just sugarcoated in "we'll get all the good shit from the EU, but god knows, we'll give nothing up for it". Do you actually believe that they didn't know that the EU will tell them to jog on? The entire reasoning behind that "statement" was being able to pin it on the EU if a "no deal" happens. Something that you can still see now.
Btw, as a general statement, i don't think Labour will do a better job in regards to Brexit. I also don't think Corbyn is the right guy for the time either (probably ever). The only reason why his "reputation" seems to have recovered is that tories currently are making considerably more noise than him - something that he couldn't hide behind if it comes to elections.
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On December 14 2018 06:28 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 00:18 iamthedave wrote:On December 13 2018 08:51 m4ini wrote:Mogg calling for May to resign is typical stupidity from that wing of the party. Like, what the fuck do they think is going to happen if May resigns, leaving us with no PM for several months leading directly into Brexit?
Basically exactly what they want, is gonna happen. Except it isn't, because if they kick May out the Party takes massive damage in the process. The Tories are already getting hammered in the public sphere (that's usually why they activate Backstab Mode), but getting rid of May isn't going to boost them. The public is blaming the party. Dropping May just makes them look even worse and basically hands the next election to Labour on a platter. Not that I think the Tories have much of a hope of stopping Labour next time either way. Corbyn's rep has recovered, the Labour rebels know they can't get rid of him, and the Tories have burned down pretty much every candidate they could run over the Brexit period (I mean, David Davis, of all people, is considered a reasonable side bet after Gove and Johnson). I figured he'd be PM eventually, and it looks like his time is coming. I'm sorry, i must've missed the part where the tories gave any fuck about public opinion in the last few years. My bad i suppose. Here's reality. Ever since i moved to the UK, and that's roughly 6 years ago, tories didn't give a shit about public opinion. It's a party literally made out of backstabbers and intrigants, only in for their own gain. Not just obvious clusterfucks like Boris Johnson. I have not once seen or heard anything of a tory that actually made sense for the majority of the country. The reason the party didn't take much damage is because morons were listening harder to when they blasted the EU and immigrants for problems that were entirely the UKs responsibility. If they kick out May, they get the Brexit they want. From the get go they made clear that they actually don't want a deal, it was just sugarcoated in "we'll get all the good shit from the EU, but god knows, we'll give nothing up for it". Do you actually believe that they didn't know that the EU will tell them to jog on? The entire reasoning behind that "statement" was being able to pin it on the EU if a "no deal" happens. Something that you can still see now. Btw, as a general statement, i don't think Labour will do a better job in regards to Brexit. I also don't think Corbyn is the right guy for the time either (probably ever). The only reason why his "reputation" seems to have recovered is that tories currently are making considerably more noise than him - something that he couldn't hide behind if it comes to elections.
The Tories care very much about being in power. They care about public opinion when it leads to them not getting votes. That should be fairly clear. And you're ignoring that the Tories get A LOT of votes every election. A good chunk of the public agrees with them.
You're also misreading the Tory situation. A specific wing of the Party doesn't want a deal, but it's not the majority. The Brexit extremist wing is Mogg's lot. The majority do want some sort of deal. May's part of the party knew they wouldn't get everything they wanted, but Mogg's lot definitely did believe it because they have no idea how our relationship with the EU works.
re: Corbyn you clearly weren't paying attention a few years ago. Corbyn was a shoe-in for PM until Labour completely turned on him and tried to kick him out while assassinating his public image as hard as they could with media support. It's kind of crazy that he came through it so easily. But the fact he did just meant the party had completely screwed itself up, because he handily - very handily - beat the next most popular candidate but everyone that wasn't a full party member just saw Labour turning on itself and being completely disorganised. Some of the backbenchers continued to undermine him for about a year afterward as well. He's pretty much the most popular actual politician in the country and has been for years and years now. With Labour calmed down, he's got a smooth path to power.
He'll be shit for Brexit though because he's a leave voter all the way. But he at least does care about public opinion and has some ideas that might help people. I'm not sure he can govern effectively, he seems to have done a fairly poor job with his own party, but it's pretty likely we're going to find out soon.
On December 14 2018 00:35 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 00:18 iamthedave wrote:On December 13 2018 08:51 m4ini wrote:Mogg calling for May to resign is typical stupidity from that wing of the party. Like, what the fuck do they think is going to happen if May resigns, leaving us with no PM for several months leading directly into Brexit?
Basically exactly what they want, is gonna happen. Except it isn't, because if they kick May out the Party takes massive damage in the process. The Tories are already getting hammered in the public sphere (that's usually why they activate Backstab Mode), but getting rid of May isn't going to boost them. The public is blaming the party. Dropping May just makes them look even worse and basically hands the next election to Labour on a platter. Not that I think the Tories have much of a hope of stopping Labour next time either way. Corbyn's rep has recovered, the Labour rebels know they can't get rid of him, and the Tories have burned down pretty much every candidate they could run over the Brexit period (I mean, David Davis, of all people, is considered a reasonable side bet after Gove and Johnson). I figured he'd be PM eventually, and it looks like his time is coming. I am not sure tbh, I would say it would go to Gove or Rudd
Nah, even the Tories don't like Gove much. Johnson's far and away their front runner. Betting odds put Davis and Rudd significantly above Gove.
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I think Corbyn's brexit might be ok. All of the things that I'm going to hate about Brexit are about what the tories specifically will do with the UK when they are charged with setting up the new economy. I think Labour would pretty much keep most of the things I like about the EU (human rights, worker's rights, product standards, healthy immigration etc.) while getting us out of the horrible EU governance system.
Then again, its hard to know that for sure because Labour won't tell us shit about their plans.
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My opinion is that Corbyn would actively work for the good for the country, except that he supports Brexit.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
to be honest, nebulous is probably putting it lightly
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She's almost schrodinger's Prime Minister; simultaneously in charge of everything while having power over nothing.
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Its only natural for the EU to be frustrated. The negotiated with a government that cannot agree on its own position and now that an agreement has been reached it can't pass it.
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United States43582 Posts
The problem isn’t May, it’s Parliament.
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On December 15 2018 04:00 KwarK wrote:
The problem isn’t May, it’s Parliament.
Not quite. The problem is party politics.
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I understand why the deal sucks for the UK but what exactly is their alternative? They say they want to be able to end the backstop unilaterally but that wouldn't be much of a backstop now would it. It's an insurance 'if all else fails', how can you expect to leave it whenever you want while keeping the rest of the deal? Leave it into what exactly? I was in London this week and watched alot of BBC news but they never mentioned any of this. Even the EU leaders say they don't really know what it is the UK want and it's quite alarming at this stage.
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On December 16 2018 01:42 Longshank wrote:
I understand why the deal sucks for the UK but what exactly is their alternative?
Not leaving is a pretty good alternative I'd think..
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UK doesn't know what UK wants. The original referendum was a near 52-48 split, and probably over 50 in favour or remaining now. Nobody knows what those who voted for brexit actually wants, despite what the hardline brexiteers claims. Most of the arguments in favour or a hard brexit are purely lies or misinformation or a lack of knowledge.
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Every time Brexit came up in conversation with locals here in Edinburgh, they said we're sorry for Brexit and that Brexit isn't Scottish.
Can't really say that this is UK position. It's England (apart from London metro area and some constituencies in the south east and Wales that primarily voted for the exit out of the EU.
Well, you kinda can say it is a UK position, cause England dominates the rest of the UK population wise and as there isn't any veto mechanism, which is present in many EU related questions, funnily enough, to balance that advantage in the union, it is the uk position vote wise.
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Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum.
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On December 16 2018 06:18 Sent. wrote:
Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum. I don't believe the concept of leaving the EU was a thing at the time of the Scottish independence referendum.
Infact I seem to remember that not being in the EU after leaving the UK played a role in making the No vote win.
Your argument doesn't seem to make any sense.
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On December 16 2018 06:18 Sent. wrote:
Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum.
As most of them are strangers, I can not quite agree with your assessment. I've only met one guy of whom I know he voted Brexit and he was jokingly suggesting that with right wing parties rising in popularity, we will surely have free movement between Germany and the UK after Brexit. We had a good laugh about that.
As to the second point, the poster above me said the main argument I'm aware of.
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On December 16 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2018 06:18 Sent. wrote:
Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum. I don't believe the concept of leaving the EU was a thing at the time of the Scottish independence referendum. Infact I seem to remember that not being in the EU after leaving the UK played a role in making the No vote win. Your argument doesn't seem to make any sense.
If you believe an independent Scotland would be forced to spend a signifcant amount of time outside of the EU if it did choose to secede then yes, my argument might not make sense to you.
I don't know if that requires an explanation. I think it doesn't but just in case: To me it's obvious that all three parties (Scotland, the EU and the Formely United Kingdom, still governed by Cameron) would be interested in arranging a swift transition. The situation is not comparable to the one with Catalonia where Spain would use its veto powers to keep the rebels out.
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On December 16 2018 07:07 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2018 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On December 16 2018 06:18 Sent. wrote:
Are you really surprised that people you're comfortable talking politics with have views similar to yours?
If they have a problem with the UK's position they should blame themselves, as they (probably) voted "No" in the Scottish independence referendum. I don't believe the concept of leaving the EU was a thing at the time of the Scottish independence referendum. Infact I seem to remember that not being in the EU after leaving the UK played a role in making the No vote win. Your argument doesn't seem to make any sense. If you believe an independent Scotland would be forced to spend a signifcant amount of time outside of the EU if it did choose to secede then yes, my argument might not make sense to you. I don't know if that requires an explanation. I think it doesn't but just in case: To me it's obvious that all three parties (Scotland, the EU and the Formely United Kingdom, still governed by Cameron) would be interested in arranging a swift transition. The situation is not comparable to the one with Catalonia where Spain would use its veto powers to keep the rebels out.
But you are not talking about "the EU" here. You are talking about every single country within the EU having to agree. And some of them who have their own troubles with regions wanting to secede (like spain) might not want to give them any further reason to think that that would be a good idea. If spain doesn't really care about scotland (and why should it?), but think that allowing scotland to join the EU after leaving their overlord might give the catalonians similar ideas, they might get the idea of not allowing that. Which they have the power to do. Which is a valid risk that at least some scots might have taken into consideration when thinking about leaving the UK. And if you position is that it is very important for scotland to be within the EU, why would you take that risk? Especially if you can't see into the future and don't know that England will be idiotic enough to drag the whole of the UK out of the EU with them just a few years later, a fact of which there was no indication whatsoever of at the time of the scotland referendum.
At that point, it seemed like staying within the UK was the best way to make sure that you stay within the EU. Obviously in hindsight that was incorrect.
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