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On December 22 2018 18:18 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 17:15 Longshank wrote:On December 22 2018 10:09 KwarK wrote:
Corbyn is Old Labour, not New Labour. Foot, not Blair. They’re not the same, you can’t just say left wing = remain. After all, it’s been Tories who took us into Europe. Thatcher and Major. The EU in the UK has been a right wing project that was vehemently opposed by the left. I believe that was the case in most EU countries but the position of leaving the union has changed with time. While they vehemently oppose certain aspects of the EU, they are strongly in favor of other, such as more universal workers rights and whatnot. Many left wing parties across Europe don't want to leave the EU in a Brexit kind of way but rather reform or replace it long-term. And from what I've seen from Corbyn, he seems to mirror that view. It's unfortunate that it's impossible to hold a nuanced view on a matter in today's climate. It's either black or white, pro or anti, and there's no room for anything in between. Corbyn's always towed the 'will of the people' line May's used. He's been an open skeptic of the EU for ages and spent the entirety of the actual Brexit campaign being quiet and when the press badgered him gave very neutral comments. He very clearly either doesn't care or only mildly wants to stay in the EU.
I agree completely. I just object to the notion that him not being a spirited remainer makes him a hard brexiteer.
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On December 22 2018 18:34 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 18:18 iamthedave wrote:On December 22 2018 17:15 Longshank wrote:On December 22 2018 10:09 KwarK wrote:
Corbyn is Old Labour, not New Labour. Foot, not Blair. They’re not the same, you can’t just say left wing = remain. After all, it’s been Tories who took us into Europe. Thatcher and Major. The EU in the UK has been a right wing project that was vehemently opposed by the left. I believe that was the case in most EU countries but the position of leaving the union has changed with time. While they vehemently oppose certain aspects of the EU, they are strongly in favor of other, such as more universal workers rights and whatnot. Many left wing parties across Europe don't want to leave the EU in a Brexit kind of way but rather reform or replace it long-term. And from what I've seen from Corbyn, he seems to mirror that view. It's unfortunate that it's impossible to hold a nuanced view on a matter in today's climate. It's either black or white, pro or anti, and there's no room for anything in between. Corbyn's always towed the 'will of the people' line May's used. He's been an open skeptic of the EU for ages and spent the entirety of the actual Brexit campaign being quiet and when the press badgered him gave very neutral comments. He very clearly either doesn't care or only mildly wants to stay in the EU. I agree completely. I just object to the notion that him not being a spirited remainer makes him a hard brexiteer.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu?fbclid=IwAR2qvR1DR20POzm5obHQsWK9cKfme_PVqw9LnhaAfHf0K3XpKlFv0GnTLHA
He's a Brexiteer over the objections of his party.
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United States43582 Posts
Corbyn is one the key problems with the current political climate, the opposition is at war with itself which is propping up a useless government.
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For all the huge advances Corbyn claims to have made in democratic structure of the Labour party, he's still able to subvert the clear will of the members on the most important issue for years.
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On December 23 2018 04:33 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 18:34 Longshank wrote:On December 22 2018 18:18 iamthedave wrote:On December 22 2018 17:15 Longshank wrote:On December 22 2018 10:09 KwarK wrote:
Corbyn is Old Labour, not New Labour. Foot, not Blair. They’re not the same, you can’t just say left wing = remain. After all, it’s been Tories who took us into Europe. Thatcher and Major. The EU in the UK has been a right wing project that was vehemently opposed by the left. I believe that was the case in most EU countries but the position of leaving the union has changed with time. While they vehemently oppose certain aspects of the EU, they are strongly in favor of other, such as more universal workers rights and whatnot. Many left wing parties across Europe don't want to leave the EU in a Brexit kind of way but rather reform or replace it long-term. And from what I've seen from Corbyn, he seems to mirror that view. It's unfortunate that it's impossible to hold a nuanced view on a matter in today's climate. It's either black or white, pro or anti, and there's no room for anything in between. Corbyn's always towed the 'will of the people' line May's used. He's been an open skeptic of the EU for ages and spent the entirety of the actual Brexit campaign being quiet and when the press badgered him gave very neutral comments. He very clearly either doesn't care or only mildly wants to stay in the EU. I agree completely. I just object to the notion that him not being a spirited remainer makes him a hard brexiteer. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu?fbclid=IwAR2qvR1DR20POzm5obHQsWK9cKfme_PVqw9LnhaAfHf0K3XpKlFv0GnTLHAHe's a Brexiteer over the objections of his party.
This has been his stance since at least six months back, Nothing has changed since then so why would his stance? I'm sure he wouldn't mind a Brexit in the terms he's suggested but everyone knows, and I believe including him, that there's zero chance of the EU agreeing to them(no backstop for instance). I don't believe he's stupid in that way. When the choice further down the road is no deal or second referendum, I still think he will support a second referendum.
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Corbyn supports Brexit. I don't really see how this is up for debate.
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On December 23 2018 07:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Corbyn supports Brexit. I don't really see how this is up for debate.
This is such a lazy and inaccurate way of describing it and exactly what I meant by no room for nuances. You're saying he's pro any type of Brexit, Brexit no matter what. No deal, indefinite backstop, soft, hard and mushy. I guess I support Swexit since I wouldn't mind Sweden leaving if we were to keep all benefits while removing all the costs.
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In all certainty, he has never support remain. He has never campaign for reamin,, or has said anything supporting remain, or any action supporting to remain, except for that one photo op on twitter. The problem is that all your choicesto which you have subscribed to him is to leave the EU. That's says it all really.
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Well if corbyn is really pro brexit then why doesn't he supports mays deal ? Because that's the only way to get a brexit done actually.
Now he is risking it will end up with a 2nd referendum and a further delay of the whole process. Makes no sense if all he wants to do is leave eu asap.
He doesn't want to leave eu,maybe partyline is to leave eu but thats not what labour really wants. Am like 99% sure if this though I guess thats not an argument lol. I don't know,i have seen eu for long time now. As far as I can remember all major political parties in Germany,netherlands,france,belgium and England where in favor of going forward with every single step leading up to further unification.
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On December 23 2018 10:05 pmh wrote:
Well if corbyn is really pro brexit then why doesn't he supports mays deal ? Because that's the only way to get a brexit done actually.
Now he is risking it will end up with a 2nd referendum and a further delay of the whole process. Makes no sense if all he wants to do is leave eu asap.
He doesn't want to leave eu,maybe partyline is to leave eu but thats not what labour really wants. Am like 99% sure if this though I guess thats not an argument lol. I don't know,i have seen eu for long time now. As far as I can remember all major political parties in Germany,netherlands,france,belgium and England where in favor of going forward with every single step leading up to further unification. There is more then one way to get to Brexit.
Some prefer a more hard exit then May's deal which still leave the UK in a potentially long customs union with the EU over the Ireland border.
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United States43582 Posts
On December 23 2018 10:05 pmh wrote:
Well if corbyn is really pro brexit then why doesn't he supports mays deal ? Because that's the only way to get a brexit done actually.
Now he is risking it will end up with a 2nd referendum and a further delay of the whole process. Makes no sense if all he wants to do is leave eu asap.
He doesn't want to leave eu,maybe partyline is to leave eu but thats not what labour really wants. Am like 99% sure if this though I guess thats not an argument lol. I don't know,i have seen eu for long time now. As far as I can remember all major political parties in Germany,netherlands,france,belgium and England where in favor of going forward with every single step leading up to further unification.
Because he’s the leader of the opposition and his party are predominantly remain. He’s been at war with his party for years now.
The situation is fucked. It’s hard to explain because if you’ve not been following British politics for a while you’ll assume Labour is a coherent party (due to the Blair/Brown years). It’s not, it’s two parties, Old Labour and New Labour, whose internal infighting has been the only reason Tories have gotten into power for decades (88, 92, 15, 17).
Corbyn doesn’t have the support of enough of his party to act, his position is as precarious as May’s.
He’s had large numbers of his MPs defy the whip on the EU, leadership challenges, votes of no confidence, shadow cabinet resignations, and people leaving the party.
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On December 23 2018 08:52 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2018 07:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Corbyn supports Brexit. I don't really see how this is up for debate. This is such a lazy and inaccurate way of describing it and exactly what I meant by no room for nuances. You're saying he's pro any type of Brexit, Brexit no matter what. No deal, indefinite backstop, soft, hard and mushy. I guess I support Swexit since I wouldn't mind Sweden leaving if we were to keep all benefits while removing all the costs.
Corbyn's record on the EU:
* Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
* Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
* Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
* In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
* Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
* In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
* Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
* In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
* Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
* The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
* In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
* Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
* During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
* In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.
* In 2018, Jeremy Corbyn said he would try to make Brexit go ahead even if Labour won a general election before it happened.
Have I missed anything?
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Hey look I can also copy+paste things from reddit. Why not add the stuff that didn't fit your agenda:
+ Show Spoiler +On 17 Jul 2018: Jeremy Corbyn voted to make retaining membership of the European medicines regulatory network a government objective. Show vote
On 13 Jun 2018: Jeremy Corbyn voted to make the UK's withdrawal from the EU conditional on seeking, as an objective for the UK's negotiation of the withdrawal agreement, full access to the internal market of the EU rather than merely European Economic Area membership.
On 13 Jun 2018: Jeremy Corbyn voted to largely retain the EU "Charter of Fundamental Rights" as part of UK law following the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.
On 13 Jun 2018: Jeremy Corbyn voted in favour of steps designed to ensure that the UK’s withdrawal from the EU does not result in the removal or diminution of any rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies and procedures that contribute to the protection and improvement of the environment.
On 17 Jan 2018: Jeremy Corbyn voted against the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. Show vote
On 17 Jan 2018: Jeremy Corbyn voted against the United Kingdom leaving the European Union.
On 13 Dec 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted to prevent ministers withdrawing the UK from the European Economic Area, the European single market. Show vote
On 21 Nov 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted for the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights to remain part of UK law on the UK's withdrawal from the European Union. Show vote
On 21 Nov 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted to retain the general principles of EU law derived from EU treaties, direct EU legislation, EU directives and European Court of justice case law, as part of UK law after the UK leaves the EU. Show vote
On 21 Nov 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted to require the UK Government to report on changes to EU legislation which form part of UK law, and to require the Government to consider adopting such changes to ensure that the rights of workers and employees in the UK are no less favourable than they would have been had the UK remained a member of the EU or EEA. Show vote
On 14 Nov 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted to require courts or tribunals to pay due regard to any relevant decision of the European Court after the UK's withdrawal from the EU Show vote
On 11 Sep 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted against ending the supremacy of EU law in UK law; against converting EU law into domestic law on the UK's exit from the European Union and against giving ministers the power to correct deficiencies in retained EU law. Show vote
On 11 Sep 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted against ending the supremacy of EU law in UK law; against converting EU law into domestic law on the UK's exit from the European Union and against giving ministers the power to correct deficiencies in retained EU law. Show vote
On 13 Mar 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted to guarantee EU derived rights, and the potential to acquire residency rights, for EU and EEA citizens legally resident in the UK. Show vote
On 8 Feb 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted for the UK to remain member of the European Atomic Agency Community (Euratom) when withdrawing from the European Union and to treat leaving Euratom separately from leaving the European Union. Show vote
On 6 Jul 2016: Jeremy Corbyn voted in favour of giving EU nationals currently living in the UK the right to remain. Show vote
On 15 Jun 2016: Jeremy Corbyn voted to say the UK needs to stay in the EU. Show vote
On 9 Mar 2016: Jeremy Corbyn voted in support of a proposed EU directive on combating terrorism; and against working directly with other countries and against recognising that national security is a matter for individual nations. Show vote
On 19 Nov 2014: Jeremy Corbyn voted for the UK to rejoin a series of European Union schemes for closer police and judicial co-operation in criminal matters. Show vote
On 15 Jul 2013: Jeremy Corbyn voted against opting out of all EU police and criminal justice measures adopted before December 2009 Show vote
On 15 Jul 2013: Jeremy Corbyn voted to consider the views of the Association of Chief Police Officers when deciding when to opt into Europol's European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation and Training; and against making opting in conditional on Europol not being given the power to direct national law enforcement agencies to initiate investigations or share data that conflicts with national security. Show vote
On 24 Apr 2012: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on European Union — Data Protection in the Areas of Police and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) Show vote
On 14 Sep 2011: Jeremy Corbyn voted in favour of an EU Directive on the right of access to a lawyer in criminal proceedings and on the right to communicate upon arrest Show vote
On 9 Feb 2011: Jeremy Corbyn voted not to support the Government's position that the UK should not contribute to the European Stability Mechanism and financial assistance for Euro area Member States should primarily be provided by other euro area Member States. Show vote
On 11 Mar 2009: Jeremy Corbyn voted yes on Deferred Divisions — second strategic energy review and european energy networks Show vote
On 19 Nov 2007: Jeremy Corbyn voted yes on European Communities (Finance) Bill — Second Reading Show vote
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I'm not denying he voted for stuff related to the EU, but he consistently voted directly against the EU and Britain being in it.
He's very, very obviously pro-Brexit. He has been consistently anti-EU throughout his entire political career. That doesn't mean he won't vote for something he agrees with while we're in the EU, but he clearly doesn't want us to be in that bloc.
The stuff that 'didn't fit my agenda' is meaningless, which is why it wasn't included. No matter what you do, Corbyn is more anti-EU than the last three or four Tory Prime Ministers despite being the head of the party that has all the pro-EU voters in it. Which is a weird and unfortunate state of affairs, as other posters have noted.
Oh, and to ace the bonus round, he's the most anti-EU of Labour leaders in the past twenty years as well.
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No, the reason your Lib dem blogger didn't include any instances where he acted in favour of the EU isn't because they are irrelevant if your aim is to give an unbiased record of Corbyn and the EU.
And you still don't seem to understand that being a Eurosceptic doesn't equate being a hard leaver, or even a plan leaver. Thankfully the rest of the EU are able to make that distinction.
I suppose we'll have to wait and see once/if you're left with no deal or second referendum.
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On December 24 2018 00:02 Longshank wrote:
No, the reason your Lib dem blogger didn't include any instances where he acted in favour of the EU isn't because they are irrelevant if your aim is to give an unbiased record of Corbyn and the EU.
And you still don't seem to understand that being a Eurosceptic doesn't equate being a hard leaver, or even a plan leaver. Thankfully the rest of the EU are able to make that distinction.
I suppose we'll have to wait and see once/if you're left with no deal or second referendum.
So what precisely do you think Corbyn's stance is? A Remainer with a bizarre lack of interest in actually Remaining?
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Hes a politician that does things when its politically expedient for him to do them and does what he believes in when it actually matters.
Taking a voting record as the gospel is really dishonest if you're trying to claim that it means concrete things especially if you're ignoring half or more of the data set that disagrees with you.
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To me everything points to Corbyn being anti EU.
Just recently during first minister question time, Nicola Sturgeon urged the Scottish Labour Party members to support her endeavour of convincing Corbyn of a second referendum.
A guardian article of today also deals with the subject. A small except:
Pro-remain Labour MPs also tore into Corbyn. Pat McFadden, a former Labour business minister, said: “It would be a tragedy if Jeremy Corbyn facilitated Brexit and continued his lifelong hostility to the European Union on the basis of his views of the state-aid rules. There are plenty of EU member states with state-owned industries and with different tax and spend policies from those followed by the Tory government. It would not be the EU that would stop a Labour government regenerating the United Kingdom, but the economic damage brought about by Brexit that he may yet enable.”
Ilford North Labour MP Wes Streeting said: “Our members and voters are overwhelmingly pro-European. This lets them, and our country, down.”
Luciana Berger, the Labour MP for Liverpool Wavertree, said her party would never be forgiven if it facilitated Brexit, while former shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna described Corbyn’s remarks as “depressing”.
source
Sounds pretty anti 2nd ref to me
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Why are you having this discussion? Corbyn is obviously anti-EU. He's tolerated its existence but isn't going to come running to rescue the UK from leaving it.
A best was a lukewarm remainer during the referendum campaign.
It's the main thing that sucks about him, though I'm not about to use it to count out a win for Labour in the next general election - in fact, it could very well win it for them.
Weirdly Labour leaders are like that: generally desirable but on a specific major point bad.
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On December 24 2018 01:34 Deleuze wrote:
Why are you having this discussion? Corbyn is obviously anti-EU. He's tolerated its existence but isn't going to come running to rescue the UK from leaving it.
A best was a lukewarm remainer during the referendum campaign.
It's the main thing that sucks about him, though I'm not about to use it to count out a win for Labour in the next general election - in fact, it could very well win it for them.
Weirdly Labour leaders are like that: generally desirable but on a specific major point bad.
It's rather obvious why we discuss it, isn't it? Because people in the thread do not agree on the subject.
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EPT
