EPTPro-China, Anti-Japan Protests - Page 107
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
It's far more useful to discuss practical, realistic policy implementations that have a chance of success and do away with what are obviously impossible demands to meet. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:33 m4inbrain wrote: I didn't say its ridiculous or a joke, i said outright that it's stupid. And no, it's not possible. You can't do that, if you don't want your nation to disintegrate, therefore impossible. The fuck do you think would happen to japan if they "fire" their emperor just because some some foreign idiot wants to have that happen to feel satisfied? Are you really that shortsighted? Of course they could do that. You could also ask for every japanese to just suicide. Would be a possibility in your world, right? Oh, not to mention the fact that china just had a huge navy exercise at their border to japan including simulation of real combat and live ammunition is in no way an indicator for you that japan can't dismantle their navy, right? Man, if you don't have any argument, stop arguing. To say "well they could physically do it" does not mean that they actually can do it. I could jump without a parachute from a plane. Its possible, but seriously retarded. As are these "demands". I think it is very disingenuous to say that the steps he asked for is akin to 'telling every Japanese to commit suicide,' considering that eliminating the imperial seat and disarming Japan are both steps that the Allies were contemplating. The former was not implemented only because of MacArthur's geopolitical calculations, while the latter was implemented and only allowed to lapse because of Japan's strategic role in the US's Pacific Alliance. Neither of these steps are all that ridiculous for the treatment of a defeated aggressor in the postwar situation - for example, postwar Germany was basically subject to both of these conditions, and worse. It was the necessities of the Cold War that allowed both Germany and Japan to re-militarize - under Allied, though in effect primarily American - auspices. The Axis countries were prepared for both when they announced unconditional surrender, and the Allies were ready to deliver both till other concerns drove them in a different direction. | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:59 Azarkon wrote: I think it is very disingenuous to say that the steps he asked for is akin to 'telling every Japanese to commit suicide,' considering that eliminating the imperial seat and disarming Japan are both steps that the Allies were contemplating. The former was not implemented only because of MacArthur's geopolitical calculations, while the latter was implemented and only allowed to lapse because of Japan's strategic role in the US's Pacific Alliance. Neither of these steps are all that ridiculous for the treatment of a defeated aggressor in the postwar situation - for example, postwar Germany was basically subject to both of these conditions, and worse. It was the necessities of the Cold War that allowed both Germany and Japan to re-militarize - under Allied, though in effect primarily American - auspices. The Axis countries were prepared for both when they announced unconditional surrender, and the Allies were ready to deliver both till other concerns drove them in a different direction. But one simply cannot justify the elimination of an entire navy and imperial institution with such cultural significance based on a war that happened 70 years ago and for which the vast majority of people responsible have long since died. In the immediate post-war period sure, but it's far too long in the past to use war crimes committed by Japan to reasonably justify anything beyond symbolic gestures, monetary reparations, and intervention to ensure history books include facts and education about what transpired. | ||
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TriO
United States421 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:43 Mykill wrote: Japanese emperor is a symbol... not somebody in power anyways. kinda like british monarchy. They can just reside anyways.. Also @pics above. Could be shopped tbh. Source? 2 online pictures should not be the basis for an opinion They are real it happen a few days ago in Tokyo, forgot what site I saw them at though. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:59 Azarkon wrote: I think it is very disingenuous to say that the steps he asked for is akin to 'telling every Japanese to commit suicide,' considering that eliminating the imperial seat and disarming Japan are both steps that the Allies were contemplating. The former was not implemented only because of MacArthur's geopolitical calculations, while the latter was implemented and only allowed to lapse because of Japan's strategic role in the US's Pacific Alliance. Neither of these steps are all that ridiculous for the treatment of a defeated aggressor in the postwar situation - for example, postwar Germany was basically subject to both of these conditions, and worse. It was the necessities of the Cold War that allowed both Germany and Japan to re-militarize - under Allied, though in effect primarily American - auspices. The Axis countries were prepared for both when they announced unconditional surrender, and the Allies were ready to deliver both till other concerns drove them in a different direction. Your reading comprehension seems to be very poor, but i'll give up on "discussing" stuff with you. Yeah, you're right. Have a good day. Oh, and next time try to respond to something that someone wrote, not to cherrypick a statement and try to make an argument out of context. It would help to take you serious, which i can't. | ||
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:59 Azarkon wrote: I think it is very disingenuous to say that the steps he asked for is akin to 'telling every Japanese to commit suicide,' considering that eliminating the imperial seat and disarming Japan are both steps that the Allies were contemplating. The former was not implemented only because of MacArthur's geopolitical calculations, while the latter was implemented and only allowed to lapse because of Japan's strategic role in the US's Pacific Alliance. Neither of these steps are all that ridiculous for the treatment of a defeated aggressor in the postwar situation - for example, postwar Germany was basically subject to both of these conditions, and worse. It was the necessities of the Cold War that allowed both Germany and Japan to re-militarize - under Allied, though in effect primarily American - auspices. The Axis countries were prepared for both when they announced unconditional surrender, and the Allies were ready to deliver both till other concerns drove them in a different direction. Well I think you missed the point that the war ended 75 years ago and the people who participated in it are almost all dead. Forcing a country to disarm because their ancestors did something wrong is retarded. At least it will be obvious for the people who read thís thread to understand how much hate you harbor. | ||
CountChocula
Canada2068 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:25 Azarkon wrote: There's no need to hard support what is self evident from the way Japan has conducted itself over the past 60-70 years, and what has been accepted by international observers for decades. Apologies? Words are cheap, and the apologies Japan's leaders have issued, besides being half hearted to begin with, never echoed their actual behavior and conduct. In fact, several of my first posts in this thread was about the general apathy and indifference of both Japanese leaders and their population over what happened in WW 2 beyond 'victor's justice,' and I did provide arguments for both why and how then. Had you known this issue in better detail - ie beyond Wikipedia googling - you would not need me to tell you this, because it has been written about again and again in scholarship and journalism - for example, Peter Li's Japanese War Crimes: The Search for Justice. To indulge you just this once, I am going to quote directly from the book for you:[ Nice rhetoric there taking what you didn't provide any supporting evidence for as if it were obvious--it's not. If you think words are cheap and don't take apologies at face-value, then I can't help but think you have some kind of bias against Japan. And "never echoed their actual behavior and conduct" when Japan gave $30 billion in low-interest loans and handouts to help rebuild Chinese infrastructure after Mao rejected war reparations--if that's not good will, then I don't know what is. Several who were accused of Class A War Criminals rose to high positions in Japanese politics. THey received a slap on the wrist and then returned to run the government and industries. It was because of this continuity that Japan would never assume full responsibility for the atrocities committed in Asia Just because they were accused and later acquitted doesn't make them guilty, does it? Or if they were sentenced and later released means they'd been punished for their crimes. There's also a non sequitur in there somewhere about the continuity. I suppose you love books filled with symbolic language (I checked the book--it hasn't been peer-reviewed, btw) that goes hand-in-hand with your fuzzy logic earlier in the thread saying nationalism is an extension of tribalism and thus essential to our survival. Any reasonable person would tell you that is false and that nationalism is actually one of the biggest threats to world peace, because it is a blinding love for their country that makes otherwise sane men justify any and all actions taken by their country, no matter how insane and unjust. It is sad and pathetic, however, that you choose to hound me over my statements when others have said the exact same thing and with less support. A grudge from past confrontations in which you have persistently ended up on the losing side? You tell me, but I have the feeling that you never do your own homework except when forced to by other people who have spent a hundred times the effort you have on a subject before forming an opinion. A bit of Azarkon-brand condescension accompanied by a delusional interpretation of events--I think I've shown everyone earlier already what a grab-bag of fallacies you run into with just a few forum posts. It's also laughable that you claim "having spent a hundred times the effort" considering you focus all your efforts on justifying China-Japan hatred. Never mind though. I shall leave you to your own devices in this thread attempting to impress others with your geopolitical knowledge (because we all know it is easier (in the sense of being less controversial) to impress others with facts rather than statements concerning morality). I will however call you out whenever you're spreading misinformation and doomsday predictions: Japan never cared. Saying that they did before is disingenuous. The rioters had a negative effect on Japan - obviously - but nothing was going to change their mind to begin with. The failure of Japan to properly mend its relations with other East Asian countries after the war is a fester in the wound. One day, all of East Asia is going to pay for it. | ||
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yaliu07
15 Posts
On September 25 2012 06:24 Robinsa wrote: Well I think you missed the point that the war ended 75 years ago and the people who participated in it are almost all dead. Forcing a country to disarm because their ancestors did something wrong is retarded. At least it will be obvious for the people who read thís thread to understand how much hate you harbor. I agree. I dont think Japan should not disarm their military. I do hope that you see that even Chinese hold a history grudge, but we also moved forward. We have a 40 years relationship with Japan. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
1) Japanese withdrawal from the Diaoyu Islands 2) Dismantling of the JMSDF (not the whole military, just the naval component that continually poses a threat to Chinese shipping) 3) The abdication and elimination of the Japanese imperial seat (the institution most responsible for the terrors and tragedies of WW2 in Asia) Well anyways, those 3 steps, especially 2) and 3) won't ever happen in the foreseeable future, and nothing contructive seems to come out of the discussion based on it. 1) is understandable from Chinese side of view, and the same can be said vice versa from Japanese side of view. If anyone seriously thinks all those 3 should be met before Japan is considered sincere, then I don't know what to say. It's like Terran demanding nerf to every single Zerg unit just because it has been victimized for some time now. Even demand from victim side needs to be somewhat reasonable to be considered legitimate. "Japan used to be OP, so Japan now deserves nerf to death" is not the world we, or at least I, live in. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On September 25 2012 06:30 yaliu07 wrote: I agree. I dont think Japan should not disarm their military. I do hope that you see that even Chinese hold a history grudge, but we also moved forward. We have a 40 years relationship with Japan. Nice to hear that there are reasonable voices out there, not just, uhm, "guys" like Azarkon and Letmelose. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On September 25 2012 06:18 Elegy wrote: In the immediate post-war period sure, but it's far too long in the past to use war crimes committed by Japan to reasonably justify anything beyond symbolic gestures, monetary reparations, and intervention to ensure history books include facts and education about what transpired. The funny thing is, even Japan's closest ally and military protector, the USA, has passed a resolution that asks Japan to acknowledge and apologize for using comfort women in WW2: On Monday, the House unanimously passed the nonbinding resolution strongly urging the Japanese government to “formally acknowledge” and “apologize” for its military’s “coercion of women into sexual slavery.” Japan had lobbied hard against the resolution in Washington, warning that it could harm relations between the countries. http://anthropologist.wordpress.com/2007/08/02/reading-for-the-day-japan-reacts-to-us-house-passage-of-comfort-women-resolution/ This resolution was sponsored Mike Honda, a Japanese American. You know there is something wrong with Japan when its closest ally passes a resolution telling Japan how to behave and above all, the bill is sponsored by a Japanese American. BTW, this resolution was passed by more than 50% of the House of Representatives so it wasn't just Mike Honda who had this opinion of Japan. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
U.S. Demands Apology for 'Comfort Women' The U.S. House of Representatives unanimously passed a non-binding resolution demanding that Japan apologize for forcing women into sex slavery during World War II. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12372399 | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On September 25 2012 06:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: When your closest friend and ally tells you that you are behaving badly - guess what - maybe you are behaving badly: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12372399 time-line, the US was not an ally of japan during WWII wasn't an ally of japan before WWII really and after was closer to their overlord rebuilding the society into one that wouldn't wage war; so yeah the US didn't approve of WWII japan for a lot of reasons. And yes people voted for a non binding resolution because it's non binding also who the fuck is going to say no when it's going to imply that you are okay with sex slavery and there is no real push ie you don't have to put your neck out =p. And all he wants is it signed into law essentially wants official papers saying we are sorry vs the other apologizes that were already done but for some reason that would count as sincere for w.e reason. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
And they (Japan) continue to double talk and white-wash the history of their activities and constantly attempt to change their history books in the junior high school and high school level. That in itself indicates that there is no sincere and historical responsibility being taken by the government of Japan. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12372399 When somebody of Japanese descent serving as a congressman in the USA has to tell his country of heritage that it is behaving badly, this is an obvious sign there is something wrong. Not to mention that when the resolution passed, the majority of the House of Representatives agreed with him. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On September 25 2012 07:07 xelnaga_empire wrote: I think this quote from Mike Honda, the Japanese American congressman who sponsored the resolution asking for Japan's apology to comfort women summarizes the problems with Japan pretty well: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12372399 When somebody of Japanese descent serving as a congressman in the USA has to tell his country of heritage that it is behaving badly, this is an obvious sign there is something wrong. Not to mention that when the resolution passed, the majority of the House of Representatives agreed with him. Did you read any answers in between? How do you oppose that demand? Also, that guy was born in america. And grew up there. Learned from american historybooks (you know, winner writes history and stuff). I don't even bother to quote him where he said that the prime-minister in fact did apologize, because of course, you "forgot" to mention that part. Also, please edit your posts if you quote the same stuff over and over again, its getting tiresome to read through the same statement for three times. Edit: also, a smart person would catch on the fact that, and i quote you now: "...activities and constantly attempt to change...". I dont know about you. But i, coming from europe, i read there that there are some buttheads that try to change something, but can't get it done. Please have the patiency, and explain to me, why they constantly attempt to try it, instead of just doing it. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
Also, could you find a source which proves that "comfort women" were coereced/abducted to become one by Imperial Japanese Army? The resolution doesn't provide any source for anything, so it is hard to believe everything. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On September 25 2012 07:07 xelnaga_empire wrote: I think this quote from Mike Honda, the Japanese American congressman who sponsored the resolution asking for Japan's apology to comfort women summarizes the problems with Japan pretty well: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12372399 When somebody of Japanese descent serving as a congressman in the USA has to tell his country of heritage that it is behaving badly, this is an obvious sign there is something wrong. Not to mention that when the resolution passed, the majority of the House of Representatives agreed with him. So talk to the major history text book makers for the US and the pull Texas and California have on what makes it into a middle/high school history textbook. This is just the same deal with japan, it's a very similar system publisher make the textbooks and states approve certain ones for school, in the US the problem revolves around what Texas and California want due to they are very large volume customers, as for japan it is who ever is in control of the ministry of education at the time creates approved text books, blame an entire country for something when it's only a small group that causes the problem. The only difference here is that california and texas, california has a board and so does Texas but i think final approval in texas comes down from one person so it come out very similar to the role of ministry of education. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On September 25 2012 06:28 CountChocula wrote: Nice rhetoric there taking what you didn't support as if it were obvious--it's not. If you think words are cheap and don't take apologies at face-value, then I can't help but think you have some kind of bias against Japan. And "never echoed their actual behavior and conduct" when Japan gave $30 billion in low-interest loans and handouts to help rebuild Chinese infrastructure after Mao rejected war reparations. And at the same time, Japan repeatedly placed people into positions of influence who were antithetical to peace and reconciliation, pursued policies that demonstrate complete indifference to the scars of their neighbors, and operated in such a way that bilateral relations are frequently pushed to the breaking line between them and their neighbors. As for Japan's ODA to China - I don't think you appreciate the loan aspect of it. Japan's ODA to China, while reflecting a need by the Japanese leadership to honor reparations - required of Japan by the treaties that ended WW 2 - that were not paid because of Cold War politics, was driven by concerns other than 'war reparations.' In the words of Reinhard Drifte: There is empirical evidence for ODA giving Japan [leverage over China]. The Japanese government did not just rely on the assumptions of the democratic peace theory, but has been trying to use ODA to influence China's security policy. Japan isn't the only country to provide ODA to China. The US and the EU have both provided ODA - and there is no argument whatsoever that this has to do with the US and the EU 'feeling sorry' for what they did to China in the past. While Japan's loan-based ODA is brought up repeatedly to justify its 'apologetic stance,' it is in fact a win-win situation for Japan because, on one hand, the loans are loans that have to be paid back, and on the other hand, it has allowed Japan to control - to a degree - the policies of the Chinese government during the period the ODA was paid. Thus, Shaokui Feng writes, "[Japan's ODA] has been taken as an one-sided Japanese 'favor' to China. First of all, it should be affirmed that Japan's ODA has played a positive role in speeding up China's modernization. However, Japan's provision of ODA to China does not just benefit China; many of the projects benefit both China and Japan. ... Japan's ODA has promoted China's construction of infrastructure, and in the meantime it has supported Japanese non-governmental enterprises investing directly in China." Saying that Japan's ODA reflects that the Japanese do care about what they did during WW 2 requires far greater substantiation than the fact of the aid itself, which was - ironically - discontinued because of wide spread opposition by the Japanese public, which was in no small amount due to the popular perception among Japanese that China was not appreciative enough of Japan's ODA! That is to say, China was not thankful enough for Japan's reparations - the delicious irony! Just because they were accused and later acquitted doesn't make them guilty, does it? There's also a non sequitur in there somewhere about the continuity. I suppose you love books filled with symbolic language (I checked the book--it hasn't been peer-reviewed, btw) that goes hand-in-hand with your fuzzy logic earlier in the thread saying nationalism is an extension of tribalism and thus essential to our survival. Any reasonable person would tell you that is false and that nationalism is actually one of the biggest threats to world peace, because it is a blinding love for their country that makes otherwise sane men justify any and all actions taken by their country, no matter how insane and unjust. I'm sorry, but your understanding of the subject is very lacking. The bulk of the people who were acquitted were guilty of being instrumental to the war. They were acquitted because of geopolitical concerns. Since you have a love of Wikipedia, I suggest you begin by Wikipediaing Emperor Hirohito and see what is written about his conduct during the war. Both the Japanese imperial loyalists and the US government bent themselves over to preserve Hirohito despite his complicity, all for the sake of opposing the USSR. A bit of Azarkon-brand condescension accompanied by a delusional interpretation of events. It's also laughable that you claim "having spent a hundred times the effort" considering your persistent attempts at justifying China-Japan hatred. Never mind though. I shall leave you to your own devices in this thread attempting to impress others with your geopolitical knowledge (because we all know it is easier (in the sense of being less controversial) to impress others with facts rather than statements concerning morality). I will however call you out whenever you're spreading misinformation and doomsday predictions. I am condescending towards you because you are wrong, refuse to admit it, and have nothing to back up your arguments except empty idealistic rhetoric. Had you shown a proper understanding of the subject beyond quoting me a 'list of apologies issued by the Japanese government,' and had you not accused me of spreading China-Japan hatred, I'd accord you a respectful response. But given your post record, and given your zeroing in on me when dozens of others have echoed the same sentiment, it's very difficult to escape the idea that you have a personal stake in showing me wrong - however trivial and petty the 'wrongness' ends up being. Bottom line - whether you are conscious of it, you have repeatedly tried to attack / insult me. Your failure to reflect on this is the leading cause of your persistent entrance into arguments that you have no hope of winning simply because you are obviously not schooled in those subjects. My advice to you is to stop reading my posts, because you are incapable of treating them respectfully. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On September 25 2012 07:19 Orek wrote: Yeah, Mike Honda is a Japanese American congressman from CALIFORNIA where Korean/Chinese immigrants are growing faster than Japanese. Kinda explains why this non-binding resolution failed to pass 5 times before this. Why fail 5 times if it is that important... Yet he managed to convince more than 50% of the House of Representatives to vote for this resolution? So all the other congressmen that voted for this resolution also have Korean/Chinese immigrants growing faster in their districts as well? Say what you want and argue it any way you want, but the bottom line is, the US government told Japan it was behaving badly. And this is coming from Japan's closest friend. Now you will probably argue that the US isn't Japan's closet ally, lol. | ||
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