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On September 25 2012 03:35 robjapan wrote:
oh dude... Abe never got voted in, he took over after Koizumi resigned.
and when he stepped out of line, it was the people who kicked his ass out.
So NO he wasn't elected by the people, but he was damn well removed by them.
Um, he was elected by the diet which was elected by the people. And he resigned, probably only after being pressured by his peers. Also he was in power for about as long as each of successors lol.
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On September 25 2012 03:29 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:26 Felnarion wrote:On September 25 2012 03:06 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:39 aksfjh wrote:On September 25 2012 02:35 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:26 m4inbrain wrote:
Japan could never do something to chill you people (which it actually doesn't even concern first hand, as i said: you're just used to hate japan). How is this true? All China needs would be: 1) Japanese withdrawal from the Diaoyu Islands 2) Dismantling of the JMSDF (not the whole military, just the naval component that continually poses a threat to Chinese shipping) 3) The abdication and elimination of the Japanese imperial seat (the institution most responsible for the terrors and tragedies of WW2 in Asia) In lieu of empty words, how about some concrete actions from the Japanese to show regret and win forgiveness from their neighbors? That's it. Why are those three things so hard? I really hope this is a joke post. I am (and the Chinese people are) perfectly serious. I would think it would be embarrassing to openly admit that you want a country with a fraction of the population, which spends half as much (as a percent of GDP compared to China) on military...to lessen their military. That's absurd, asking for it will net you exactly: Everyone laughing in your face. It's absurd to the point of ridiculousness. Laugh in the face of 1.3 billion people at your own peril lol.
He's not alone. And he's right. The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well.
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Australia7535 Posts
On September 25 2012 03:04 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:39 oneofthem wrote:
rofl. are you serious?
edit: oh wow
btw nice to see my observations proven true in this very thread. all of them. Hmm?
Hmmm indeed... gets banned. Returns with false sense of vindication. loloLOL
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On September 25 2012 03:38 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:35 robjapan wrote:
oh dude... Abe never got voted in, he took over after Koizumi resigned.
and when he stepped out of line, it was the people who kicked his ass out.
So NO he wasn't elected by the people, but he was damn well removed by them.
Um, he was elected by the diet which was elected by the people. And he resigned, probably only after being pressured by his peers. Also he was in power for about as long as each of successors lol.
This is the official reason, but the Japanese people I spoke to don't believe it one little bit.
Yep, Abe and the things he said literally destroyed his party's image to the Japanese people, they tried to get some popularity back by changing leader a few times but nothing worked and they were utterly embarrassed in the last election.
Remember before Abe, Koizumi was the PM, and he was HUGELY popular in Japan, Koizumi being the PM who went to Korea and uttered the famous words
"In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility," after this Koizumi added that the Japanese people have "feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology."
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btw, from korean reports, have said that emporer akihito is interested visiting korea and apologize if need be, a totally different view on what the politicians are trying to do, take dokdo, remove defensive army and have a real army.
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Subject of "take Dokdo"
South Korea and Japan both claim ownership of the island, based in large part on differing interpretations of historical documents. The dispute has regularly caused diplomatic frictions between the two countries. Japan has proposed that the issue be resolved by the International Court of Justice, but South Korea considers the islands to be indisputably Korean territory and thus has declined resolution at the ICJ. Japan proposed bringing the issue to the ICJ four times, in 1954, 1962[37] or 1964[39] and in 2012
South Korea has occupied the area without any legal consent from either the Japanese government or the United Nations.
Now is it just me, but if you believe THAT MUCH that the islands are yours, why would you not be happy to go to the ICJ?
Why is it that the Japanese want to settle this at the ICJ whereas the Koreans refuse and set battleships and people and guards to illegally occupy the land?
No matter what you think, surely the democratic thing to do is to let the ICJ sort it out?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
you need only to read the thread to get a feel for the warped national perspective given by many posters here, particularly chinese nationalists.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 25 2012 03:41 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:04 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:39 oneofthem wrote:
rofl. are you serious?
edit: oh wow
btw nice to see my observations proven true in this very thread. all of them. Hmm? Hmmm indeed... gets banned. Returns with false sense of vindication. loloLOL
teh claim which likely was the offending one was that i called azarkon a hipster. that, alas, is not substantive to the thread.
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On September 25 2012 03:54 robjapan wrote:
Subject of "take Dokdo"
South Korea and Japan both claim ownership of the island, based in large part on differing interpretations of historical documents. The dispute has regularly caused diplomatic frictions between the two countries. Japan has proposed that the issue be resolved by the International Court of Justice, but South Korea considers the islands to be indisputably Korean territory and thus has declined resolution at the ICJ. Japan proposed bringing the issue to the ICJ four times, in 1954, 1962[37] or 1964[39] and in 2012
South Korea has occupied the area without any legal consent from either the Japanese government or the United Nations.
Now is it just me, but if you believe THAT MUCH that the islands are yours, why would you not be happy to go to the ICJ?
Why is it that the Japanese want to settle this at the ICJ whereas the Koreans refuse and set battleships and people and guards to illegally occupy the land?
No matter what you think, surely the democratic thing to do is to let the ICJ sort it out?
there's already posts about this between nbromjames (something like that) and Orek, a few inputs from me, use the search tool as have no interest in getting into that conversation once again
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oh yeh. me either just saying that I think it's better to solve the dispute democratically not by being aggressive.
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On September 25 2012 03:41 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:04 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:39 oneofthem wrote:
rofl. are you serious?
edit: oh wow
btw nice to see my observations proven true in this very thread. all of them. Hmm? Hmmm indeed... gets banned. Returns with false sense of vindication. loloLOL
That's what I was saying too lol.
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Could you enlighten me with a source which proves that "comfort women" were abducted/coerced into becoming so by Japanese Imperial Army? The only one I know of is the case in Indonesia.
To be precise, it is not his own words. He approved an e-mail message which included that sentence. Anyways, it's basically the same thing. He is disgrace to Japanese people as well.
On September 25 2012 03:47 jinorazi wrote:
btw, from korean reports, have said that emporer akihito is interested visiting korea and apologize if need be, a totally different view on what the politicians are trying to do, take dokdo, remove defensive army and have a real army.
Not that I blame it only on Korean side, but recent Korean President Lee Myung-bak's remark made it very difficult to happen as well. Although this might sound counterintuitive, if Korea truly wants emperor's apology, then staying away from such demand would help. Emperor apologizing voluntarily is what matters the most, probably for both sides.
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On September 25 2012 03:47 robjapan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:38 Taku wrote:On September 25 2012 03:35 robjapan wrote:
oh dude... Abe never got voted in, he took over after Koizumi resigned.
and when he stepped out of line, it was the people who kicked his ass out.
So NO he wasn't elected by the people, but he was damn well removed by them.
Um, he was elected by the diet which was elected by the people. And he resigned, probably only after being pressured by his peers. Also he was in power for about as long as each of successors lol. This is the official reason, but the Japanese people I spoke to don't believe it one little bit. Yep, Abe and the things he said literally destroyed his party's image to the Japanese people, they tried to get some popularity back by changing leader a few times but nothing worked and they were utterly embarrassed in the last election. Remember before Abe, Koizumi was the PM, and he was HUGELY popular in Japan, Koizumi being the PM who went to Korea and uttered the famous words "In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility," after this Koizumi added that the Japanese people have "feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology."
Your rendition of Koizumi makes him out to be a sort of friendly pacifist. Yet, Koizumi was described at the time as a nationalist politician, being the first Japanese PM to visit the Yasukuni Shrine after World War II and who supported the re-militarization of Japan. It was his repeated visits to the Yasukuni Shrine that led to a diplomatic row between Japan and both China and South Korea from 2001-2006, with his 2005 apology being seen by international observes as an attempt to repair the damage he had done.
Citing events without the context around them is useless. Koizumi was hugely popular - and during the height of his popularity, he was antagonizing relations between Japan and its neighbors by defying their protests of his visiting of the Yasukuni Shrine. However Japanese people feel about the visits, it is flat out wrong to use Koizumi as an example of Japan's repentant attitude towards China and South Korea.
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On September 25 2012 03:17 robjapan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:06 Shady Sands wrote:
I am (and the Chinese people are) perfectly serious. 1. Those islands were given to Japan by the Americans. If you have a problem take it up with the Americans, failing that get your ass to the ICJ, quit bitching to the Japanese. 2. Japan is a PACIFIST nation, during the last election, the previous party lost A LOT of support because it sent troops to iraq, it was HUGELY unpopular. Japan barely maintains a self defense force, why do you want them to remove their only line of defense? because you secretly want to invade Japan and re-enact all of the things they did in China? 3. The Emperor is nothing but a puppet at the moment, he has ZERO power, the father of the current emperor REFUSED to go to yasukuni because of the war criminals mistakenly enshrined there, his son has also refused to visit there. When Japan surrendered the emperor demanded the Americans execute him, before doing that to let him go to China and Korea and publicly bow down and apologize to those nations, McCarthur refused and because the Americans were more scared of the the progress of the Soviet Union, he decided it was in the interests of America to encourage a emperor based, right wing focused government in Japan. This right wing can still be seen today, but it gets weaker every year. Recently the LDP which is a center-right party lost in a landslide election to a center-left democratic party, the first time they had lost an election in an extremely long time.
Lunch time and finally got a chance to read this interesting post again.
First, I think all we (Chinese) want is Japan public state that they will NOT nationalize the island, and I believe all protest will stop.
As for Dismantling of the JMSDF and abdication and elimination of the Japanese imperial seat, these are all crazy talk. I cant even agree with that kinda statement.
As for shrine, I agree with Orek that it is okay for individual to pay their respect, but NOT HIGH LEVEL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS. High level government officials can visit the shrine after they are retired.
Every country should spend as much money as they can on military. I do believe "peace means having a bigger stick than the other guy." Quote from Iron Man. you guys should go see it because it is a really good movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0371746/quotes?qt=qt0478026
@robjapan, is it true that LDP party is gain power because their right wing action. Is it also true that they may win the election at the end of this year. Is it also true that LDP is considering rewrite the constitution and gave Japan the right to declare war and upgrade their coast guard to military? I read these from Chinese and Taiwanese news and I like to confirm with Japanese.
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I found couple images online. Can anyone explain? Anyone still think Japan is a PACIFIST nation?
![[image loading]](http://pic.chinashishi.net/img/attachement/jpg/site2/20120923/6c626de59fde11c8bacb07.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img6.hfhouse.com/news/content/2012-09-22/0903960001348291946.jpg)
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On September 25 2012 05:14 yaliu07 wrote:
I found couple images online. Can anyone explain? Anyone still think Japan is a PACIFIST nation?
I would want nukes too, if my "enemy" has them and threatens me. And btw, to draw a conclusion from two pictures to a whole nation is a bit far fetched. Nicely put.
Even if they're not pacifistic, who cares? No nation is a pacifist nation in the world. None.
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On September 25 2012 03:40 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:29 Taku wrote:On September 25 2012 03:26 Felnarion wrote:On September 25 2012 03:06 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:39 aksfjh wrote:On September 25 2012 02:35 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:26 m4inbrain wrote:
Japan could never do something to chill you people (which it actually doesn't even concern first hand, as i said: you're just used to hate japan). How is this true? All China needs would be: 1) Japanese withdrawal from the Diaoyu Islands 2) Dismantling of the JMSDF (not the whole military, just the naval component that continually poses a threat to Chinese shipping) 3) The abdication and elimination of the Japanese imperial seat (the institution most responsible for the terrors and tragedies of WW2 in Asia) In lieu of empty words, how about some concrete actions from the Japanese to show regret and win forgiveness from their neighbors? That's it. Why are those three things so hard? I really hope this is a joke post. I am (and the Chinese people are) perfectly serious. I would think it would be embarrassing to openly admit that you want a country with a fraction of the population, which spends half as much (as a percent of GDP compared to China) on military...to lessen their military. That's absurd, asking for it will net you exactly: Everyone laughing in your face. It's absurd to the point of ridiculousness. Laugh in the face of 1.3 billion people at your own peril lol. He's not alone. And he's right. The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well.
You said Japan has no way of redeeming itself in the eyes of the Chinese people. He gave you three steps that, however extreme, has a shot of doing it. You then replied by saying that this is 'a joke' and is 'ridiculous,' despite it being a direct and solid answer to your 'impossible task,' which in effect is an attempt to shift the blame to the Chinese side.
In this, you are simply agreeing with what I concluded fifty pages ago - that Japan is not going to take the steps necessary to mend its image with its neighbors, and that therefore, time alone is going to have to do the trick. In that case, understand that people in China and Korea are going to resent Japan for the foreseeable future, and that events such as these protests, riots, etc. are going to continue. Condemnations of such sentiments from the Japanese side is only going to exacerbate the degree of resentment, till public pressure and geopolitical conditions drive the two countries invariably towards war.
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On September 25 2012 05:26 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 03:40 m4inbrain wrote:On September 25 2012 03:29 Taku wrote:On September 25 2012 03:26 Felnarion wrote:On September 25 2012 03:06 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:39 aksfjh wrote:On September 25 2012 02:35 Shady Sands wrote:On September 25 2012 02:26 m4inbrain wrote:
Japan could never do something to chill you people (which it actually doesn't even concern first hand, as i said: you're just used to hate japan). How is this true? All China needs would be: 1) Japanese withdrawal from the Diaoyu Islands 2) Dismantling of the JMSDF (not the whole military, just the naval component that continually poses a threat to Chinese shipping) 3) The abdication and elimination of the Japanese imperial seat (the institution most responsible for the terrors and tragedies of WW2 in Asia) In lieu of empty words, how about some concrete actions from the Japanese to show regret and win forgiveness from their neighbors? That's it. Why are those three things so hard? I really hope this is a joke post. I am (and the Chinese people are) perfectly serious. I would think it would be embarrassing to openly admit that you want a country with a fraction of the population, which spends half as much (as a percent of GDP compared to China) on military...to lessen their military. That's absurd, asking for it will net you exactly: Everyone laughing in your face. It's absurd to the point of ridiculousness. Laugh in the face of 1.3 billion people at your own peril lol. He's not alone. And he's right. The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well. You said Japan has no way of redeeming itself in the eyes of the Chinese people. He gave you three steps that, however extreme, has a shot of doing it. You then replied by saying that this is 'a joke' and is 'ridiculous,' despite it being a direct and solid answer to your 'impossible task,' which in effect is an attempt to shift the blame to the Chinese side. In this, you are simply agreeing with what I concluded fifty pages ago - that Japan is not going to take the steps necessary to mend its image with its neighbors, and that therefore, time alone is going to have to do the trick. In that case, understand that people in China and Korea are going to resent Japan for the foreseeable future, and that events such as these protests, riots, etc. are going to continue.
I didn't say its ridiculous or a joke, i said outright that it's stupid. And no, it's not possible. You can't do that, if you don't want your nation to disintegrate, therefore impossible. The fuck do you think would happen to japan if they "fire" their emperor just because some some foreign idiot wants to have that happen to feel satisfied? Are you really that shortsighted?
Of course they could do that. You could also ask for every japanese to just suicide. Would be a possibility in your world, right?
Oh, not to mention the fact that china just had a huge navy exercise at their border to japan including simulation of real combat and live ammunition is in no way an indicator for you that japan can't dismantle their navy, right? Because china is so trustworthy when they say "we would never ever do something with our military, trust us, just dismantle your defense and everything is fine"? China can't even respect simple stuff as copyrights, let alone would i trust them to not take advantage of the fact that i'm defenseless now.
Man, if you don't have any argument, stop arguing. To say "well they could physically do it" does not mean that they actually can do it. I could jump without a parachute from a plane. Its possible, but seriously retarded. As are these "demands".
Edit: regarding your pissing contest.. I am neither on chinas nor on japans side. You dont need to "shift blame around", there are chinese people as well as japanese people are acting like retarded monkeys.
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I think the main idea in this thread is being slowly diminished into who can be "rightfully" angry about the past. The whole idea itself is irrelevant; peaceful protests are fine, even with signs saying things such as kill china or death to japan that is fine as long as it does not injure or inflict damage upon anyone or their belongings.
What is far more relevant to the present situation are things happening in the present. The destruction of property and causing of injury must stop immediately and the persons involved must be charged accordingly. Otherwise there won't even be the need for these extremists from both countries to sight historical grievances. The grievances needed will be the ones currently occuring.
To be clear I don't care if China and Japan want to be angry at each other, but causing damage and injury should not be tolerated. It's a sad thing when IEM has to cancel a tournement because the Chinese public cannot conduct themselves in a calm manner.
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Japanese emperor is a symbol... not somebody in power anyways. kinda like british monarchy.
They can just reside anyways..
Also @pics above.
Could be shopped tbh. Source? 2 online pictures should not be the basis for an opinion
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EPT
