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On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
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On July 30 2012 10:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote:
"Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it?"
Again? I think this is the first time you have adressed me and I don't understand your question. I have not advocated or implied students should be passed who fail.
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
"Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong."
Go troll somewhere else. Saying that high school algebra isn't advanced mathematics is nowhere near a troll.
Yeah high school algebra is definitely not advanced mathematics.. lol. In addition to college mathematics there's also competition math which isn't covered in most high schools.
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On July 30 2012 10:35 UrsusRex wrote:
Laughing at people, saying they don't deserve what they achieved, and harping on minor misstatements to humiliate them is trolling. I was not commenting on the accuracy of his statement, its not important anyways.
Well I was laughing at you calling algebra advanced mathematics. That's not really trolling. I'm not trolling you or anything. Relax.
And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma...
You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
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On July 30 2012 10:36 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada. Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet. Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more. Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world. So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit. You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
lol. Somebody doesn't know how integral mathematics is to almost every industry in America.
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Why make kids go to school at all? School should be 100% optional, imo. We didn't have schools for thousands of years and everything was okay!
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On July 30 2012 10:44 SnipedSoul wrote:
Why make kids go to school at all? School should be 100% optional, imo. We didn't have schools for thousands of years and everything was okay!
I'm hoping this is sarcastic but I'll bite.
We also didn't have plumbing, telecommunications, internet, locomotion, flight, electricity, etc... for thousands of years anyways.
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"And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me.
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I say just make school optional after 9th grade. Lowering the educational standard to get people to pass is just as bad as lowering the IQ value standard to make people feels better about themselves. If school were optional then the pass rate would be a lot higher because only those who want to go to school, go to school. Most violent students in school are those who had no interest in school in the first place, so it would even make school environment a lot safer too. So why force? Public school should just be free and optional.
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The point of the article that was written is that algebra should be taught more as an "art", or at the very least we should rethink how we teach algebra all together. I agree with the author's sentiment. Mathematics is obviously useful in any technical field out there, furthermore, because of the rigorous and analytic nature of more "advanced" math (i.e. abstract algebra, complex analysis) students can hone in problem solving and critical thinking skills that transfer to other fields. For example, math majors score the highest on LSATs followed by philosophy majors (They would probably score the highest if they weren't clumped in with theology majors), english majors rank something like 12th. Of course it can be argued that smarter students are drawn towards math in the first place, that math doesn't make you any smarter. But when you actually start doing real math, when you are trying to prove a lemma by transposition, you are using logical concepts that can be applied to construct valid or sound arguments outside of math.
The problem is the way they currently teach math is arcane and boring. How can you pique a student's interest in higher mathematics if you scar him for life with basic algebra? It takes a gifted teacher to teach mathematical thinking versus symbolic manipulation which is a sad thing.
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On July 30 2012 09:48 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 09:44 Zahir wrote:
I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time. When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering. In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
If this is true, you would have had a well rounded education including algebra anyway. Because as soon as you focused on a career requiring algebra (marine bio, engineering) you could have taken it. Algebra can be learned at about any point after arithmetic.
I don't deny that there should be some requisites, English especially. Arithmetic for sure. History, I think not. All the people trying to defend history have terrible, gut feelings-based sentimentality arguments.
But neither should anyone else deny that at some point, specialization and control over ones own education must and should occur, whether the student is ready or not. Right now our society has decided that that line should be drawn at college, but I see no reason why an 18 year old is somehow vastly different than a 17 year old.
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On July 30 2012 10:36 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada. Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet. Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more. Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world. So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit. You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
So begins the decay of civilization and the start of the next dark age.
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On July 30 2012 10:50 UrsusRex wrote:
"And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me.
Sigh, are you kidding? You're really going to play this game? Bolded the parts I'm talking about:
On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote:
"I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote:
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
Seriously, and you're trying to claim that I'm trolling? For real?
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 30 2012 10:36 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada. Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet. Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more. Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world. So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit. You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
Its always surprising when you read stuff like this. Makes you kinda sad at how ignorant people are. And Americans wonder why they aren't seen in the best light by the rest of the world....
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17053 Posts
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote:
We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I was always under the impression that American students had considerably less homework than students in other developed countries?
On July 30 2012 11:02 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:50 UrsusRex wrote:
"And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me. Sigh, are you kidding? You're really going to play this game? Bolded the parts I'm talking about: Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote:
"I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote:
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
To argue a bit here, I agree with his bolded point. I don't think that algebra should be taught to children who don't wish to teach it, under the caveat that they're also informed that it's unlikely they'll get a secure, well-paying job after high school. For those who are lucky and become good carpenters/plumbers/etc., good on them. They should just know that the proportion of burger flippers who don't know algebra is way higher than the proportion of white collar workers. If they're willing to take their chances, then I don't see why we should be protecting them from their mistakes.
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On July 30 2012 10:36 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada. Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet. Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more. Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world. So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit. You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
Are you trolling? Or ignorant?
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On July 30 2012 10:49 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:44 SnipedSoul wrote:
Why make kids go to school at all? School should be 100% optional, imo. We didn't have schools for thousands of years and everything was okay! I'm hoping this is sarcastic but I'll bite. We also didn't have plumbing, telecommunications, internet, locomotion, flight, electricity, etc... for thousands of years anyways.
Your country tag is wrong.
It should be "Romania" but you put "United States" instead.
No need to thank me, I'm here to help.
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On July 30 2012 10:36 xrapture wrote:
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
That's funny. Your view of what makes America powerful is often what makes other countries mock the USA. Being able to "buy shit" because you have a Mastercard or a Visa doesn't equate to America being all powerful. By the looks of it the "being able to buy shit cause I can" is what is going to screw you guys over both at the personal household level and at the national level.
Getting on-topic - I can't comment on the American education system since I did my schooling in England but as someone who didn't get algebra it was a pain in the ass. I had to bust a gut to get a C, where as all over courses were A's / B's. Have I used it since? Not really. Do I even remember what I learned? Nope. I think it should still be on the curriculum though, but would say that most of the people I know who went through high school math in the UK felt that it was heavily slanted towards math that most would never use again, and skimped out on a lot of common math that people use in their daily lives. I felt at the time that those who dropped out didn't drop out because it was too hard but because they felt it was too irrelevant to them - why struggle with something you know you most likely will never do again?
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Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
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I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
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On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote:
Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote:I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are. Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace. Hence all the history and science and literature and such.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
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