EPTI'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
Is Algebra Necessary? - Page 38
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol | ||
|
Zahir
United States947 Posts
On July 30 2012 11:37 DoubleReed wrote: I don't really understand the question. Education is a standard. High school is generally considered the time where you get a basic education in all fields and when/if you want to specialize you go into college. Everything in high school is completely basic. You don't really go into any depth into any field, even with AP/IB stuff (although those are much closer to college courses). I'm not exactly what you mean by "computer skills." Computer programming is all algebra, although you'll need some more than just basic algebra as well. I think I get it. You see education as a doorway to college and everything you learn there is basically fundamentals so when you can get to college you specialize right? The problem is I still see nothing in that conception of a general education that says algebra should be a requirement, seeing as how very few careers require it. People can list a lot of careers that do but they are still a tiny fraction. The study quoted in the article supports this. | ||
|
corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On July 30 2012 11:38 Zahir wrote: Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies... I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it. You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me. Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be. Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math." edit: I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff. | ||
|
Coriolis
United States1152 Posts
| ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable? I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol Yeah I'm getting this feeling as well. TLers in high school: "Cut algebra, that shit is so useless and boring!" TLers in university: "Lololol, that shit is so easy and basic, make them learn it, won't hurt!" Others: [Depends on whether or not they did well in algebra in high school] | ||
|
IMABUNNEH
United Kingdom1062 Posts
Therefore, the only real argument is "lots of people fail and give us bad school statistics, so we should remove it". Every country whose curriculum I'm aware of have algebra components as mandatory. And most of those countries have perfectly competent education results. If there's a problem with the education system in America, the answer isn't "make it easier". The answer is "make it better". | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable? I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything. | ||
|
corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:01 WhiteDog wrote: You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything. Name someone in the past 100 years who did something productive for society in terms of economy or innovation that didn't have a high school degree. I'll wait. It's not fucking 1850 anymore, we have formalized systems of education for a reason. You need to know things to get things done. | ||
|
Pimpmuckl
Germany528 Posts
If you get teached (and actually use) Algebra/Calculus/any form of "higher" math, you dont just learn to do that (specific math), you learn how to think in a logic way. To approach a problem in a certain way, a way of logic and tactic. I am 100% certain MOST of the people don't need it later in their jobs. But do you need Art later? No you do not. And the value you get from learning logic thinking and logic approaching of problems is so much more valuable than just "that stupid algebra shit". Storytime: I study Informatic Sciences which is around 70% Mathematics at my University and my calculus Professor told us why we would actually learn it: "Let's face it, there is wolfram alpha, you will never need to know this stuff again. But it's interesting. It's great to get a grasp on logic, on math in general and ITS MAGIC." Oh boy it is. Taylor Approx any1? And after i read "Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it." i wanted to rage a bit. Where the hell do you expect to go as society if you just cut standards everywhere you want to? Down the drain that is. Not to hate on american math level but it was a joke when i went over in my highschool year, same as "math based physics". Oh and one thing i just used (Hai Algebra): If you have a Vector and a Point in R^2 and want to know if the point is right from the Vector or left you can use an easy solution with the determinant of the point matrix. If you are happen to write a program and need something like this it's WAY faster than the classic check. | ||
|
blug
Australia623 Posts
| ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:03 corpuscle wrote: Name someone in the past 100 years who did something productive for society in terms of economy or innovation that didn't have a high school degree. I'll wait. It's not fucking 1850 anymore, we have formalized systems of education for a reason. You need to know things to get things done. I don't know how about Steve Jobs Jobs dropped out of college after six months and spent the next 18 months dropping in on creative classes, including a course on calligraphy Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard too. And there are thousands millionnaire who dropped out. But in my opinion it is not possible today anymore. Also I'm sorry but if Highschool is the equivalent of lycée in France (15-18 yrs old) then I was not talking about that but more about 18 - the rest. | ||
|
Tarot
Canada440 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:03 Pimpmuckl wrote: There is someone missing the point: If you get teached (and actually use) Algebra/Calculus/any form of "higher" math, you dont just learn to do that (specific math), you learn how to think in a logic way. To approach a problem in a certain way, a way of logic and tactic. I am 100% certain MOST of the people don't need it later in their jobs. But do you need Art later? No you do not. And the value you get from learning logic thinking and logic approaching of problems is so much more valuable than just "that stupid algebra shit". Storytime: I study Informatic Sciences which is around 70% Mathematics at my University and my calculus Professor told us why we would actually learn it: "Let's face it, there is wolfram alpha, you will never need to know this stuff again. But it's interesting. It's great to get a grasp on logic, on math in general and ITS MAGIC." Oh boy it is. Taylor Approx any1? And after i read "Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it." i wanted to rage a bit. Where the hell do you expect to go as society if you just cut standards everywhere you want to? Down the drain that is. This has been one of my biggest revelations in university. I always found high school math to be unbelievably boring. University math, on the other hand, is completely ridiculous and really interesting. Especially looking at the proofs that previous mathematicians came up with, it's absolutely mind blowing. Too bad high schools end up teaching repetitive and boring crap to teenagers. | ||
|
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:01 WhiteDog wrote: You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything. Our civilization built itself out of people who were less educated than we are now, sure. But if we want to continue to advance and grow we need to advance in all areas of life, which includes education. We didn't get iPhones and the internet by sitting on our butts with algebra-less education. Our economies were NOT in better shape before the modern education system was developed. I'm not sure where exactly you got that from. To that end, to everyone who thinks college is worthless. Education is worthless. Degrees are a piece of shit waste of money. Please take a look at very simple statistics from March of 2012. http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm/ Like xrapture said in his horrible post a few page back, America is strong because people can buy shit. Well, educated people can buy more shit than uneducated people. Simple as that. | ||
|
corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:11 WhiteDog wrote: I don't know how about Steve Jobs Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard too. And there are thousands millionnaire who dropped out. But in my opinion it is not possible today anymore. Also I'm sorry but if Highschool is the equivalent of lycée in France (15-18 yrs old) then I was not talking about that but more about 18 - the rest. Jobs dropped out of college, not high school. Jobs then attended Cupertino Junior High and Homestead High School in Cupertino, California.[2] At Homestead, Jobs became friends with Bill Fernandez, a neighbor who shared the same interests in electronics. Fernandez introduced Jobs to another, older computer whiz kid, Stephen Wozniak (also known as "Woz"). In 1969 Woz started building a little computer board with Fernandez that they named “The Cream Soda Computer”, which they showed to Jobs; he seemed really interested.[41] Jobs frequented after-school lectures at the Hewlett-Packard Company in Palo Alto, California, and was later hired there, working with Wozniak as a summer employee.[42] Following high school graduation in 1972, Jobs enrolled at Reed College in Portland, Oregon. edit: and yes "high school" means grades 9-12, i.e. when you're 14-18. that is what the article is talking about. | ||
|
sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 30 2012 11:53 corpuscle wrote: You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me. Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be. Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math." edit: I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff. The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem. Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point. | ||
|
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:11 WhiteDog wrote: I don't know how about Steve Jobs Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard too. And there are thousands millionnaire who dropped out. But in my opinion it is not possible today anymore. Also I'm sorry but if Highschool is the equivalent of lycée in France (15-18 yrs old) then I was not talking about that but more about 18 - the rest. Bill Gates complete high school and seeing how he got into Harvard, he must've completed high school near the top of his class by far. High school typically ends at 17 or 18 depending on how old you are when you start school, although past 18 years of age education is no longer compulsory and you can choose to not go to school anymore. | ||
|
Pimpmuckl
Germany528 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:14 Tarot wrote: This has been one of my biggest revelations in university. I always found high school math to be unbelievably boring. University math, on the other hand, is completely ridiculous and really interesting. Especially looking at the proofs that previous mathematicians came up with, it's absolutely mind blowing. Too bad high schools end up teaching repetitive and boring crap to teenagers. Yes, you have a point there, even in germany where you are split up in 3 different school-styles the "fastest" is still really slow if you are actually willing to learn something. But if you are faster and teach more background you will loose too many slower students. Still i think it's important to set standards and if algebra is in those it is good. And i don't get the point of "Took you years to learn now would take you x days". Isn't that with ALL things the case? If i would need to put up the whole 16th-18th century in Asia in one week i would just roll over the interwebs and some good books and pull that stuff out there altough i took a year in school for it. | ||
|
althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On July 30 2012 11:42 Empyrean wrote: Ehh...computer programming is more like manipulating language, syntax, and logic to arrive at what you want. Computer science is pretty much all math though. Computer programming (a large part of my job, btw) is basically just algebra. Learning syntax is a part of it, but it's a very small part (any programming language can be learned in two hours or less by a competent programmer). Algebra = logical manipulation of variables. Not saying that everybody needs to know about the quadradic equation (although it can't hurt), but basic algebra is required by a surprising amount of jobs. For most jobs that don't directly require algebra, they require the skills that algebra develops. Anyway, algebra is absolutely nessecary to be tought in schools, up until you are about 16 at the very least. After that, IMO, students should start to specialise a bit and while I believe math of some sort should be compulsory until university (college in the US), there should be multiple math subjects to cater to different people's needs. I'm not sure exactly how it works in the US, but in Australia we do basic trig->algebra->more advanced trig->calculus, IIRC. Before you get to the more advanced trig and calculus you can do an easier math that is more about statistics or something (I didn't do it). It's a bit more jumbled (and some things have changed, I helped my brother with his matrices homework the other day, which I didn't learn about until university maths), because obviously most of those things are inter-related. | ||
|
corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On July 30 2012 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem. Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point. CS degrees generally require 2-3 semesters of calculus and some combination of linear algebra, statistics, and diff eq. Anyone wanting to go into CS absolutely needs to take algebra and trig in HS unless they want to be way behind, and most take some calc in high school. | ||
|
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
In most states, you only need two years of math to graduate. Two years. That's it. That means, past the age of 16, math is no longer a necessary requirement for graduation (provided you pass the exit exam and have sufficient class time ofc). And the author of the article in the OP wants to cut standards even more. Holy shit. | ||
| ||
