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On July 30 2012 09:44 Zahir wrote:
I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time.
When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering.
In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
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i love algebra! mainly because i love calculus i guess. algebra leads me to calculus...so i love algebra!!!
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On July 30 2012 08:54 Coolzx wrote:
I find it interesting that people bash on the student for not passing. I mean if the percentage of student failling are low it just means that those student are lazy asses, but if the percentage are as high as 30%+ I believe that there is a problem with the teaching system no the student. Just fyi I took calculus in high school and pass easily, but it is just I have a good understanding of math. Most of what the teacher are teaching are a bunch of bull crap that they just read off the book, which I found that is what they do in college also and it is next to useless to try to teach to the student who didn't understand it in the first place.
In my high school there's a ton of people who couldn't give half a shit about actually trying to succeed in math class.
A majority of the people who fail (at least in my experience) do so not because of the teachers but because of themselves. Of course that's definitely not the case for every school but it's just what I've witnessed.
And reading off the book should be enough to learn something.. + practice problems.
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On July 30 2012 09:54 Jaso wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:54 Coolzx wrote:
I find it interesting that people bash on the student for not passing. I mean if the percentage of student failling are low it just means that those student are lazy asses, but if the percentage are as high as 30%+ I believe that there is a problem with the teaching system no the student. Just fyi I took calculus in high school and pass easily, but it is just I have a good understanding of math. Most of what the teacher are teaching are a bunch of bull crap that they just read off the book, which I found that is what they do in college also and it is next to useless to try to teach to the student who didn't understand it in the first place. In my high school there's a ton of people who couldn't give half a shit about actually trying to succeed in math class. A majority of the people who fail (at least in my experience) do so not because of the teachers but because of themselves. Of course that's definitely not the case for every school but it's just what I've witnessed. And reading off the book should be enough to learn something.. + practice problems.
There's also a pervasive mentality that some people are mentally equipped to do math and some aren't, so a lot of students just assume that they're utterly incapable of understanding it no matter how hard they try.
There are, of course, some people who couldn't pass high school algebra no matter how much effort they put in, but those people either have a serious learning disability or are too stupid to pass anything, not just math.
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"When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering."
When I was 9 I wanted to be a teacher. Next year I will be in the teaching credential program at my university. Just because you were undecided does not mean every child is and even if they are they should be able to choose what interests to study. Your comment does not justify teaching everyone a subject of very limited applications.
"In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
You understand forcing students in to algebra that do not want to learn it is not preparing them for anything right?
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On July 30 2012 10:02 UrsusRex wrote:
"When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering."
When I was 9 I wanted to be a teacher. Next year I will be in the teaching credential program at my university. Just because you were undecided does not mean every child is and even if they are they should be able to choose what interests to study. Your comment does not justify teaching everyone a subject of very limited applications.
Most people don't know what they want to do when they grow up. That's just a fact. Some do, yes, but most don't. Forcing kids to decide early on is gonna leave you with a lot of people doing a job they thought they wanted when they were 15 and hating every second of it.
"In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
You understand forcing students in to algebra that do not want to learn it is not preparing them for anything right?
A friend I'm talking to about this very subject stopped taking math in high school because it bored her (though she was good at it), and is now considering going into math in college, but she has to take a community college math course to get back up to speed, so she might not do it.
If you ask kids whether they want to take a class or not, a lot of them won't because guess what, most people (even the ones who are good at it) don't like taking classes. If I had the choice to drop math and take some fluffy art class for an easy credit, I would've been all over that. My parents made me stay in up to calculus, and I can't thank them enough for it because I would've been way behind in college otherwise.
edit: Also can you use quote tags? It makes it easier to figure out which parts are you and which aren't. If you don't know how, just highlight what you want to quote and click the little speech bubble up top with "..." inside.
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I hope this wasn't too serious. As well as helping generally in life, math teaches logical thinking and problem solving. The idea that "these problems are hard, so instead of teaching our kids how to solve them let's just get rid of them!" is frankly ridiculous. The way that American kids are treated so special when in reality half of them will end up flipping burgers at McDonald's really ticks me off.
-end rant-
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Is Algebra just the basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents, logarithmic, trig, PEMDAS, the employment of variables X, Y, and Z?
Someone type up what am I missing here.
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On July 30 2012 10:02 UrsusRex wrote:
"When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering."
When I was 9 I wanted to be a teacher. Next year I will be in the teaching credential program at my university. Just because you were undecided does not mean every child is and even if they are they should be able to choose what interests to study. Your comment does not justify teaching everyone a subject of very limited applications.
"In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
You understand forcing students in to algebra that do not want to learn it is not preparing them for anything right?
I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do.
In either case, I think the most important about learning algebra is the critical thinking. Sure, they are taught how to solve for certain variables, but the important thing they learn is how to think about problems. I would say that almost every subject in high school will not be relevant to real life, and even most of the time classes taken in college are not relevant to your life (or job). But people who have gone through higher education come accross as more intelligent. Not because they can tell me about organic chemistry or statistical mechanics, but because the way they think through problems and the way they aproach a question is much more thorough.
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"Forcing kids to decide early on is gonna leave you with a lot of people doing a job they thought they wanted when they were 15 and hating every second of it."
That's not what I advocate and forcing children to learn algebra is just as ineffective. Students should be able to take an elective instead of algebra I don't advocate releasing them from studying, even studying math. I was able to pass college math because I took a statistics elective at my community college. I think students should have similar choices in math in junior high and high school. They should be able to choose between the many things math can teach us and I agree with the author that a focus on applied mathematics is ideal for many students, like me.
"My parents made me stay in up to calculus, and I can't thank them enough for it because I would've been way behind in college otherwise."
When I was in high school I had untreated bipolar disorder, my mom was dead, and I lived with my step dad. There was no way I could learn advanced math. I tried studying for hours and it never helped I failed algebra so many times. Contrary to what people say that does not make me dumb, lazy, defiant, or a person with bad cultural values. I just could not understand it, I still can't. I have no explanation I tried so many times but I never grasped math. I'm not proud of that but I am not ashamed either. I still managed to graduate with honors english and history and taking ap classes where i passed for both, It was easy for me because I choose to go in to those classes and wanted to learn. Not everyone will do good in math or get the benefits you did, in fact most will not. It was not until I had choices as an adult that I was able to pass math classes.
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On July 30 2012 10:17 Xiphos wrote:
Is Algebra just the basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents, logarithmic, trig, PEMDAS, the employment of variables X, Y, and Z?
Someone type up what am I missing here.
They also usually teach some solving systems of equations, polynomials, factoring, stuff like that.
It's basically all the stuff leading up to calculus that isn't trig.
That's not what I advocate and forcing children to learn algebra is just as ineffective. Students should be able to take an elective instead of algebra I don't advocate releasing them from studying, even studying math. I was able to pass college math because I took a statistics elective at my community college. I think students should have similar choices in math in junior high and high school. They should be able to choose between the many things math can teach us and I agree with the author that a focus on applied mathematics is ideal for many students, like me.
I'm of the opinion that anyone with a high school degree should be able to take any 100-level introductory college course they want. If you don't know algebra, you can't take calc (or even precalc). I guess we just differ on how comprehensive a high school education should be... I, for example, have made zero use of the four years of history I took and probably never will, but if I don't think I shouldn't have had to take it.
When I was in high school I had untreated bipolar disorder, my mom was dead, and I lived with my step dad. There was no I could learn advanced math. I tried studying for hours and it never helped I failed algebra so many times. Contrary to what people say that does not make me dumb, lazy, defiant, or a person with bad cultural values. I just could not understand it. I still managed to graduate with honors english and history and taking ap classes where i passed for both, It was easy for me because I choose to go in to those classes and wanted to learn. Not everyone will do good in math or get the benefits you did, in fact most will not.
I think the reason a lot of people are failing math is that the system's really shitty. If schools were run the way I wish they were, you would've had much more academic (and probably neuropsychological) support. I think the answer to the problem the author talks about is by helping the people who are genuinely struggling with algebra in a more intensive and more effective way, not letting them off the hook. That's all.
Also, I never said people who are bad at math are "dumb, lazy, defiant, or a person with bad cultural values." I voluntarily spend eight hours a week dealing exclusively with kids who are "bad at math" because I think that they can do it with more support.
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On July 30 2012 09:44 Zahir wrote:
I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time.
Algebra is basic math, honestly. You need it to even take physics or chemistry. If kids are not even introduced to these subjects then how could they possibly know if they want to take them.
No, education is not about "preparing you for life" actually. History and Literature do not prepare you for life. I'm not exactly sure where people are getting this idea from. Education is all about standards. There's nothing "meaningless blanket standards" about having a high school diploma imply that you have basic math skills.
This, again, would also force colleges to waste more of their time educating kids in algebra rather than their actual majors when they should have just learned it in high school. I believe it's also way easier to learn algebra as a kid, but I don't have evidence to back that up. It's important to your development.
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"I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
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American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
edit: also how is a child capable of deciding for him/herself that algebra is not necessary at the age of 13 or whenever?
School is supposed to be preparatory for any sort of future career or academic path. It's not like reading Shakespeare becomes optional in English class or that knowing where Mongolia is becomes optional in geography "because you'll never use that information." Why is there an exception for algebra, or calculus even?
These subjects are standard high school fare for developed countries around the globe (and even many developing ones). The United States is by and large the only exception to this case, where there are few clear federal standards for education and things like calculus are not universally taught in high school.
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United States7483 Posts
There are an incredible amount of careers that require much harder math than algebra, and you can't even begin to learn it without algebra. Is it fair to the students that they would have to make their career decision in middle school in order to even understand the foundations to learn the more advanced math in time to graduate college? Good luck being an architect without geometry, and you need 2 years of algebra to really learn geometry.
Students need to learn the basics to learn more advanced subjects, and they need to have the basics down pat in advance of when they need to learn the more advanced topics. You can't learn differential equations without calculus, and you can't learn calculus without algebra. If you're an engineer in college, you don't have the time to learn basic algebra from scratch before moving on to the other subjects, and it's not at all smart to force students to make career decisions in middle school or early high school.
It's not difficult, and just like many other things, it's one of those things that is worth learning, even if it's never really applicable to decision making for your every day life, much like learning history.
EDIT:
This seems appropriate http://xkcd.com/1050/
Futhermore, basic algebra is very similar to basic logic, and the skills do indeed translate. Logic is pretty damn important, something way more people should learn. It's exceedingly simple and quite easy, it's not as if they are requiring calculus of all students (and calculus is also essential for a lot of professions).
For the record, Algebra is the branch of mathematics that deals with the relationships between numbers.
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On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote:
"I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it? You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is. You do not need a high school diploma to be a contributing member of society. While we should certainly encourage people getting diplomas, the goal of education is to educate people, not to give out diplomas.
Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong.
Also, please use the "quote" tool on this forums.
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If your foundation on mathematics is poor all of the above subject like algebra will also a failure.and I want to decline all statement above that negates the value of algebra.I like to define you what is algebra without too much vocabulary:algebra is a product of coefficient.Coefficients are define in two terms:It is numerical and literal coefficient:
ex 2Y=2 multiplied by Y wherein:
2=numerical coefficient
Y=literal coefficient
done!
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"Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it?"
Again? I think this is the first time you have adressed me and I don't understand your question. I have not advocated or implied students should be passed who fail.
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
"Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong."
Go troll somewhere else.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote:
"Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it?"
Again? I think this is the first time you have adressed me and I don't understand your question. I have not advocated or implied students should be passed who fail.
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
"Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong."
Go troll somewhere else.
Saying that high school algebra isn't advanced mathematics is nowhere near a troll.
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Laughing at people, saying they don't deserve what they achieved, and harping on minor misstatements to humiliate them is trolling. I was not commenting on the accuracy of his statement, its not important anyways.
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EPT
