EPTEveryone should learn at least basic algebra. Unless I'm thinking of something else, the importance of being able to form and understand equations is significant. The one thing I would say is that (to me at least) there are a lot of subjects in math that are completely useless to ~90% of students. I remember a few years ago in a math class, we were learning something which would probably never pertain to our lives in the future. This one kid raised his hand and said, "What are we ever going to need to know this for?". The teacher got mad and ignored him lol. But I feel like this is a fairly common occurrence and thought for students. And I definitely don't blame them for asking/thinking it.
Is Algebra Necessary? - Page 33
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Epishade
United States2267 Posts
Everyone should learn at least basic algebra. Unless I'm thinking of something else, the importance of being able to form and understand equations is significant. The one thing I would say is that (to me at least) there are a lot of subjects in math that are completely useless to ~90% of students. I remember a few years ago in a math class, we were learning something which would probably never pertain to our lives in the future. This one kid raised his hand and said, "What are we ever going to need to know this for?". The teacher got mad and ignored him lol. But I feel like this is a fairly common occurrence and thought for students. And I definitely don't blame them for asking/thinking it. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:16 eusoc wrote: Actually to build up his "continuum mechanics" he needed those instruments Nonetheless, it was much easier back then to be proficient in many different fields and be at the forefront of all of them. Now all of our fields have way more depth, so omnidisciplinary scientists are basically considered to be practically impossible nowadays. To say that Cauchy was an engineer and not a mathematician is stupid. He was both. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:11 eusoc wrote: Oh, well... u know... houses, cars, phones... or u mean mathematician like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauchy Oh, wait, he was an engineer better try this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazare_Carnot wait.. what the hell, even this one is an engineer How about mathematicians like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Grothendieck Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov . . . I could point to a time period when all those who can write are clergymen, but that does not mean being a priest is necessary for the acquisition of literacy in the modern world. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:06 chenchen wrote: That's funny because I've worked in software development and in scientific research. Most of either require no mathematics whatsoever. Some work in scientific research or software development may require recognition of the results of mathematics. Please go back to my post and read my brief and crude introduction of what a mathematician is. Well obviously you don't seeing as all software development is done with algebra, and how are you supposed to do scientific research without stochastic processes, which is based on random variables, which is algebra. Even if you ignore the obvious of statistics requiring algebra, what about the subject your studying? ecology? well that needs differential equations to model and understand. Engineering, don't even go there. Any astrophysics and physics in general are just math. Most social scientists require mathematical models and equations for populations. And im sorry but what is software development without any variables, because that's algebra. As for the criticism of pure mathematics or high level not being applicable, while somewhat true, high level mathematics allows us to understand mathematics as a whole, which in turn effects applied mathematics. For example an engineer might look at the field of logic and proofs in mathematics and scoff as it's lack of application , but it's implications in his field just from say, the abel ruffini theorem are very important, and is why we need computers, and even higher level of mathematics to solve quintic and equations of higher orders. | ||
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Perdac Curall
242 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:18 Epishade wrote: Is anyone else wondering how so many people are failing algebra? I thought my algebra in high school was easy. Maybe the article is talking about some other type of algebra that I haven't learned yet and is ten times harder? Everyone should learn at least basic algebra. Unless I'm thinking of something else, the importance of being able to form and understand equations is significant. The one thing I would say is that (to me at least) there are a lot of subjects in math that are completely useless to ~90% of students. I remember a few years ago in a math class, we were learning something which would probably never pertain to our lives in the future. This one kid raised his hand and said, "What are we ever going to need to know this for?". The teacher got mad and ignored him lol. But I feel like this is a fairly common occurrence and thought for students. And I definitely don't blame them for asking/thinking it. No you are not wrong. It is easy, and it should be taught to high school students. I learned basic algebra in elementary school, in word problems and such. I am glad to hear about that algebra requirement for California universities. It should be like that in every state. A basic scientific competency is essential for an educated populace. | ||
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UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
Its impossible to objectively measure intelligence and even if you could a math test only objectively measures your ability to do math. The problem with measuring intelligence is how many environmental factors change. You have huge differences in intelligence based on diet, oxygen density at the elevation they live, the amount of sunlight during the day. Your intelligence level is not completely set at birth, perhaps your potential is but the rest breaks down in the variables of living. Even IQ tests can only measure how well you do on an IQ test. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:22 chenchen wrote: How about mathematicians like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Grothendieck Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov . . . I could point to a time period when all those who can write are clergymen, but that does not mean being a priest is necessary for the acquisition of literacy in the modern world. ...what? It's not like we're "done" with mathematics. Hell, mathematical biology looks like it will become an incredibly important discipline in developing biotechnology. We still have a long way to go. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:25 DoubleReed wrote: ...what? It's not like we're "done" with mathematics. Hell, mathematical biology looks like it will become an incredibly important discipline in developing biotechnology. We still have a long way to go. When did I ever allude to anyone being "done" with mathematics? All I was trying to say is that being a mathematician is absolutely unrelated to being an engineer and just because engineers tended to pursue mathematics in a certain time period does not mean engineering is at all relevant to modern mathematics. Thus, his example of Cauchy being an engineer makes no sense. Just as only clergy pursued writing thousands of years ago in river valley civilizations does not mean that today, writing is limited to the clergy. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:24 UdderChaos wrote: Well obviously you don't seeing as all software development is done with algebra, and how are you supposed to do scientific research without stochastic processes, which is based on random variables, which is algebra. Even if you ignore the obvious of statistics requiring algebra, what about the subject your studying? ecology? well that needs differential equations to model and understand. Engineering, don't even go there. Any astrophysics and physics in general are just math. Most social scientists require mathematical models and equations for populations. And im sorry but what is software development without any variables, because that's algebra. As for the criticism of pure mathematics or high level not being applicable, while somewhat true, high level mathematics allows us to understand mathematics as a whole, which in turn effects applied mathematics. For example an engineer might look at the field of logic and proofs in mathematics and scoff as it's lack of application , but it's implications in his field just from say, the abel ruffini theorem are very important, and is why we need computers, and even higher level of mathematics to solve quintic and equations of higher orders. As I've stated before, scientific research and software development use the results of mathematics, but few that work in those fields actually produce any mathematical results. Thus the statement to which I was originally replying is false. Since when do we need to become mathematicians to enter "most high-tech fields"? We only need to become mathematicians to enter the field of mathematics. | ||
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Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
Poll: Are STEM occupations the ONLY occupations to need algebra? No (16) Yes (1) 17 total votes Your vote: Are STEM occupations the ONLY occupations to need algebra? Quoted from Georgetown Report: "Scientific, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics, and Social Sciences (STEM) Occupations....While these occupations are not large in number, they generate the technological changes that shape all other occupations. In 2008, STEM Occupations accounted for about 7.3 million jobs, or about 5 percent of the 147 million in the U.S. economy. By 2018, they are projected to increase to 8.6 million jobs, or 5.3 percent of the nation’s 162 million total positions" The reason I ask the question is because this is the information the author has asserted into saying that only these positions use algebra. The actual report does NOT mention algebra, even once, and it does not assert that these are the only occupations to use algebra. It is the author's opinion. Personally, I do not agree with the author that "a mere 5 percent of entry-level workers will need to be proficient in algebra or above" because that is false and grossly asserts that only STEM occupations (as defined above) use algebra. EDIT: Ps. Business occupations (including accounting, finance, etc) are not STEM occupations. Just to give an example of the other occupations which use algebra daily. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:34 UdderChaos wrote: What i don't understand is why would someone pinpoint algebra as something to get rid off? What about that bullshit that we learn in school such as the meaning and motifs behind John Steinbecks "Of Mice and Men"? Not that i don't appreciate literature, but why is it considered even close to on par as advancing mathematical understand. Also with modern obesity in the 1st world being a huge problem, why do schools still not teach basic cooking skills and which foods are good for you, and what exactly a nutritious diet week in, week out is. I was taught nutrition by an obese smoker. Good times. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
But cutting it out of school is fucking ridiculous. | ||
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Gradius
United States112 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:43 Severedevil wrote: I was taught nutrition by an obese smoker. Good times. Hah so was I! | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions. If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit. In case you haven't realized actuaries and quants use some of the most advanced forms of applied mathematics that there is. In fact, most of the mathematics around pricing of options and financial derivatives is so complicated no one knows how it works a little beyond the clearly wrong Black-Scholes framework. And this remains a very active area of mathematical research. If every mathematician in the world disappeared, society would collapse. Who would be there to continue scientific progress, make informed policy recommendation, model how the world works, etc? | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On July 30 2012 08:09 paralleluniverse wrote: In case you haven't realized actuaries and quants use some of the most advanced forms of applied mathematics that there is. In fact, most of the mathematics around pricing of options and financial derivatives is so complicated no one knows how it works a little beyond the clearly wrong Black-Scholes framework. And this remains a very active area of mathematical research. If every mathematician in the world disappeared, society would collapse. Who would be there to continue scientific progress, make informed policy recommendation, model how the world works, etc? I didn't have applied mathematics in mind when I was thinking of mathematics. | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:31 Spiffeh wrote: In defense of the strugglers, some people just can't do math. They are brilliant at other things, but numbers make their head spin. I think math should be integral in any school curriculum, but we need to also recognize when we would be better off making the kids better at what they're already good at. If Johnny shows early adeptness and passion for the guitar, we should push him to dedicate his time to learning scales instead of some math he will learn to despise. It's cases like these where kids get bored or frustrated and learn to hate the system. How is algebra taught in the US? When I studied it, it was about abstract ideas, rational thinking, re-framing problems. Not so much about adding some large number to some other large number. | ||
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). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. 
