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On July 30 2012 06:12 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:06 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 06:01 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:56 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:52 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote:
"History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students. This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me  ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial. On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world. Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then. On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =) Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing. Yeah, so our definitions are quite different. Reminds me of a quote by a math professor: Show nested quote +
"They were applied mathematicians, at best."
- Kiran Kedlaya, discussing Ford-Fulkerson
I'd argue that theoretical physics is, like pure mathematics, pretty close to art--they're looking for things like the Grand Unified Theory basically for aesthetic reasons, appealing to the symmetry of nature. A theoretical physicist or mathematician appreciates a beautiful theory much more than an ugly one.
Tbh, as a physicist, I really must disagree that its anything like an art. While Im more on the applied side, ive done a fair share of theory, and its really not artsy imo.
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Personally i find basic algebra to be quite useful even if I'm in a field that is mostly unrelated to math.
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Highschool math is not difficult, don't try to cut things from the curriculum to 'fix' the problem of poor grades and dropouts. Fix the lack of effort students are putting in and how poor the education system is right now.
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"Regardless of whether your observation is "accurate" or not, you are being exactly the kind of person you're describing..."
Maybe so but I don't care since I know what I'm talking about and feel no guilt calling out those who judge and bselessly denigrate others.. If it bothers you thats your problem.
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United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:15 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:12 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 06:06 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 06:01 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:56 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:52 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote:
"History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students. This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial. On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world. Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then. On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =) Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing. Yeah, so our definitions are quite different. Reminds me of a quote by a math professor:
"They were applied mathematicians, at best."
- Kiran Kedlaya, discussing Ford-Fulkerson
I'd argue that theoretical physics is, like pure mathematics, pretty close to art--they're looking for things like the Grand Unified Theory basically for aesthetic reasons, appealing to the symmetry of nature. A theoretical physicist or mathematician appreciates a beautiful theory much more than an ugly one. Tbh, as a physicist, I really must disagree that its anything like an art. While Im more on the applied side, ive done a fair share of theory, and its really not artsy imo.
Really? You don't appreciate a beautiful theory?
The symmetry of the standard model?
The elegance of Maxwell's equations?
Images like this?
Yes, I agree that the motivation behind physics and art is completely different---in physics, you seek to understand why things are, whereas in art, you want to understand how you perceive things to be. But that doesn't mean physics should be a stark world of data and numbers and operators. You do physics because you find it, in some sense, beautiful.
Everyone should at least get a taste of the beauty a mathematician sees in mathematics.
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On July 30 2012 06:20 UrsusRex wrote:
"Regardless of whether your observation is "accurate" or not, you are being exactly the kind of person you're describing..."
Maybe so but I don't care since I know what I'm talking about and feel no guilt calling out those who judge and bselessly denigrate others.. If it bothers you thats your problem.
For some reason I'm beginning to doubt any future success you might have in your field considering you said that you've passed college and yet continue to write like a teenager.
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On July 30 2012 06:06 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:01 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:56 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:52 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote:
"History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students. This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial. On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world. Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then. On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =) Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
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I honestly think that if the kids are not capable of learning high school algebra, then they probably don't have the motivation to do much beyond high school either.
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If you wanna judge me and my future based on my spelling in an online forum you go ahead. I find myself suprisingly indifferent to your conclusions. Oh btw you're also a hypocrite for resorting to ad hominem yourself. I'm starting to see why you were so sensitive. So you will forigve me for not caring about your opinion.
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On July 30 2012 06:35 UrsusRex wrote:
If you wanna judge me and my future based on my spelling in an online forum you go ahead. I find myself suprisingly indifferent to your conclusions. Oh btw you're also a hypocrite for resorting to ad hominem yourself. I'm starting to see why you were so sensitive. So you will forigve me for not caring about your opinion.
But I never said that I was opposed to them, see. That was all you.
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On July 30 2012 06:19 IcedBacon wrote:
Highschool math is not difficult, don't try to cut things from the curriculum to 'fix' the problem of poor grades and dropouts. Fix the lack of effort students are putting in and how poor the education system is right now.
Most people are never going to give a shit about algebra, and they will only care about getting laid, getting drunk, and getting cashflow (who can blame them?).
You're not going to fix the lack of effort cuz WE DONT GIVE A FUCK.
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On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. So you cant get rid of the mathematicians without losing scientists and engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
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This is quite ass-backward reasoning IMO. Did my highschool choice of geography help me at all in my career? No. But could I have known that when I took it? No, probably not. What would you like to teach at highschool level that will help 100% of people later in life, no matter what career they went into? You'd be hard pressed to put together even a single subject curriculum out of this.
The other issue is that higher institutions use aggregate test scores like fucking GearScore. Entry into specific faculties should be determined and weighted on a range of subjects deemed relevant to the faculty. That would fix the penalties associated with being bad at math. Unless every other applicant is both good at the relevant subjects AND good at math, then you're kinda screwed.
On top of this, a well-educated citizenry is an asset that any country can leverage. It makes people less prone to scams, stretches and exercises their cognitive capabilities at a young age when they are the most malleable and most able to absorb and expand their minds. A race to the bottom is idiotic.
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Is algebra necessary?
no.
Neither is reading. Or talking. Or having arms. Or walking.
The whole basis for "I won't use this, therefor people don't need it" is retarded. History (wikipedia), geography (google maps), vocabulary (spell checkers, online thesaurus), and basically every subject is "useless". As far as it goes, and despite mathematics not being taught well, high school math is the closest thing to critical thinking that is taught there.
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United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:38 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
I agree 100% with the second sentence, though I was responding to a post which specifically said "mathematicians"; to me, a mathematician is someone who engages in pure mathematics research, rather than someone who uses some form of undergraduate-level math.
Most pure mathematics today has, frankly, no applications in real life, and mathematicians are entirely content with this. (If you call combinatorics "pure," then maybe it has some applications; geometry and "mathematical physics" are related, but it's questionable whether even the latter is "applicable"; and number theory is used in cryptography. But I really doubt anything like the Green-Tao theorem or Jacob Lurie's work in algebraic geometry will be "useful" in our lifetimes.)
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"But I never said that I was opposed to them, see. That was all you."
I never said you or I were opposed to them. If you attack others for something you do that makes you a hypocrite regardless of your feelings or intentions. You were the one who tried to condemn me by accusing me of it, and now that you have done the same you ignore it. My problem is with those who judge baselessly.
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On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:06 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 06:01 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:56 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:On July 30 2012 05:52 Squigly wrote:On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote:
"History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students. This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial. On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world. Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then. On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote:
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =) Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing. None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions. If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
If the human race wants to continue living then we should be discovering all the pure math we possibly can because history has shown that pure math becomes applied math once geniuses find connections. I might not be smart enough but in the next 1000 years a genius may find a connection between the Riemann Zeta function and the expanding universe, or the natural logarithm will help us create virtual teleportation. The future lies in these ideas.
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Algebra, like 95% of the courses everyone takes in high school is not necessary. Science, english, history, PE, art, etc - all generally trivial knowledge and/or useless when taken at a high school level. But education isn't just about learning trivial information, or learning just exactly what you need. The whole process of early education is supposed to teach the child to think critically, to be able to learn for themselves, and find general enjoyment and/or passion for education and learning so that it carries on to their future. You need this passion or at least general enjoyment if you want the child to succeed or even do marginally well in whatever field he wants he wants to do (even gaming)! Yes a few lucky talented people can excel in a field without finishing any education, but the vast majority of those who drop end up achieving nothing because they don't know how. The vast majority of those who at least finish high school have the minimum intelligence and drive to know how to achieve something, even if sometimes laziness still gets the better of them.
America, if you want to keep hiding your children from failure, go ahead - you will only bring upon them DEEPER failures, ones that you will never help them get out of. There's a reason other countries "don't have as much trouble" with algebra - they suck it up, and aren't nancy boy's.
Let's specifically take another look at Algebra - this is not that difficult subject! People have been doing it for centuries with less education tools and knowledge available to them. Perhaps if this were calculus or quantum electrodynamics we could make a commitment to prevent that subject from ruining people's academic lives. But algebra has been around for centuries, and most children around the world don't have a problem with it! Talk about whiny parents who have no stomach to discipline their child.
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On July 30 2012 06:45 Forsy wrote:
Algebra, like 95% of the courses everyone takes in high school is not necessary. Science, english, history, PE, art, etc - all generally trivial knowledge and/or useless when taken at a high school level. Also, education isn't just about learning trivial information, or learning just exactly what you need. The whole process of early education is supposed to teach the child to think critically, to be able to learn for themselves, and find general enjoyment and/or passion for education and learning so that it carries on to their future. Most of the cases of algebra failure are a combination of poor teachers, economic factors, psychological issues or just plain laziness. Fix and support kids with those issues, and let the lazy people fail and learn the hard way, since nothing will stop their descent anyway.
America, if you want to keep hiding your children from failure, go ahead - you will only bring upon them DEEPER failures, ones that you will never help them get out of. There's a reason those other countries "don't have as much trouble" with algebra - they suck it up, and aren't nancy boy's.
Let's take another look at Algebra - this is not that difficult subject! Perhaps if this were calculus or quantum electrodynamics we could make a commitment to prevent that subject from ruining people's academic lives. But algebra has been around for centuries, and most children around the world don't have a problem with it! Talk about whiny parents who have no stomach to discipline their child!
Centuries? Calculus has been around for centuries. Algebra? Thousands of years.
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On July 29 2012 15:16 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote:
The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future. Really?
Almost any white collar job requires algebra.
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EPT
