EPTIs Algebra Necessary? - Page 30
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
 Nice to discuss.On July 30 2012 05:10 W2 wrote: algebra is like plus minus multiply and divide right? Anything extra is not really needed unless you're going into mathematics Algebra is when you start having variables. I don't think the average person uses variables in their every day life though. I'm a computer engineering student. I've felt like much of what I was learning was useless since high school. Back then my mathematics was actually quite good and I scored 800 on the math SAT's. It really isn't that big of a deal as a tenth of the population can score over 700, but I felt good about it. Feeling good about math probably got me to choose the major that I did. The author being a poli-sci major probably did not do as well in math. Come college, I really let myself down by not studying enough. I started to hate college calculus and ended up failing calc 2. I stil think some parts of calculus are useful: The stuff under the line is just the integral! XD, but I never use calculus. You can't just say that everything can be learned on the job though. While it is true that things can be learned on the job, and most people say that everything is learned on the job, learning things beforehand gives you an advantage in the candidate screening process. It also gives you a little bit to learn from before you start googling to do your job. Because when you start a job, unless it's an apprenticeship, no one is going to give you the time to go through an entire bash tutorial to write a shell script. I had no idea that the United States had such high dropout rates or that so many people didn't do well in math. That's really unfortunate. I think education can and should be reformed. That the old way of teaching people just isn't very exciting, motivating, or useful. I agree with the author on this point. But dissecting shakespeare is just as useless to most people's future careers as calculating standard deviations is. Rather than calculating standard deviations students could just be taught what causality is, and why saying one thing does not necessarily mean another. Even in teamliquid threads I see people arguing things that are not causal or proveable. That are not even instinctive. They don't understand the logic behind win rates so when one champion or one race has a higher win rate than another they think that's undeniable proof that something is overpowered. I'm sorry my rant was so unstructured. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:22 Felnarion wrote: For me, it's this: We have people who don't get math, they're just not going to get it, and the jobs they're going to perform likely won't need it. Should we force them to retake the same classes, repeatedly, causing them to possibly go so far as drop out of high school for a class that its arguable if they'll ever need? These people need to be helped. All kids should get 1 on 1 time, but what if they still don't get it? Do we just leave them to rot in the school, until they get tired of it, and quit? I think we need to look at alternatives. Well I agree that being totally bad at algebra should not be the reason people drop out from school. Let them have their low grade and move on. I mean algebra should be necessary, being good at it shouldnt. So the problem is not in algebra but in school graduation system. On July 30 2012 05:59 obesechicken13 wrote: I really miss back when teamliquid threads didn't just blow up like a bomb and burn themselves out. It was nice to have my comment on the same page twice in one day Nice to discuss.Agreed. You just cant realistically follow the discussion when there is so much post coming in. You just go in, state an opinion and get out. | ||
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shadowboxer
United States224 Posts
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UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
Math is a reaction to the environment around us, the events and cultures of the past and their desire to conquer the envrinment is why math was developed beyond collecting taxes. The societies, culture and history of our race dictates how, why and what math we use. On a more clerical note math wouldnt exist if history had not recorded it and made sure it was passed down as knowledge. There is NO enimity between math and history and math is useless without history, literature and geography and all of them are useless without math. "When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial." You say that buts its not really true, science is not encesarry humanity lived long before it was developed and the arts existed long before math. You can not remove human culture and expect math to replace it. I guarantee you there are just as many people every day using their knowledge of history, geography, and literature to pass laws, build roads, design cities, manage conflicts. You associate math and science as they are the exact same subject but math is a tool needed in different situations. Math is as much a part of history as is science. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:56 Squigly wrote: Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world. Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then. On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote: If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =) Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
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eusoc
Italy82 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks... Actually would correct to say "if ALL mathtmaticians AND scientists AND engineers , etc... disappeared", as all of them have to do a lot fo math. I don't know how school system works in other countries, but here in Italy those engineers who can't find a job can still go teaching math at high school... If u think Algebra is useless... well just be aware that here in Italy in "liceo scientifico" and "liceo classico"(wich are respectively the most difficult scientific and humanistic high school) students must learn latin... pretty useless, wouldn't u say? Still it really help improving logical thought. Just one more thing... everyone(not retarded) can learn high school math just by putting effort on it... if u do not it's obvious u get 1-2 more years of school | ||
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UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
It wasn't its a truth I have observed more times than I can recall. People who make broad declarations about groups of people are never intelligent enough to make those judgements. That is not a fallacy it is reality. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:01 ]343[ wrote: Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then. Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing. | ||
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
Keep algebra, challenge everyone. If people crap out of algebra, give them the chance to excel at something else and let them through based on those merits. Everyone wins. Unless you excel at nothing. But then at least those people were give even chance to be great before being great. The absolute worst case scenario is a dumbed down curriculum, devoid of anything interesting or hard just to placate the stupid and lazy. It just creates people devoid of independent thought, which would be boring. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:06 Squigly wrote: An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing. It's not maths that is not far from theoritical physics, it's theoritical physics which gets close to maths, if you see what I mean. Hey, General Relativity is done by the maths department at my school. | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:04 UrsusRex wrote: "It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks..." It wasn't its a truth I have observed more times than I can recall. People who make borad declarations about groups of people are never intelligent enough to make those judgements. That is not a fallacy it is reality. How ironic that it is you here that making broad declarations about groups of people. | ||
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Undrass
Norway381 Posts
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UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
Actually its an accurate observation. It would be a broad declaration if I did not meet these people and did not have this experience dealing with others. Nice try though. | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:06 Squigly wrote: An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work. Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing. Yeah, so our definitions are quite different. Reminds me of a quote by a math professor: "They were applied mathematicians, at best." - Kiran Kedlaya, discussing Ford-Fulkerson I'd argue that theoretical physics is, like pure mathematics, pretty close to art--they're looking for things like the Grand Unified Theory basically for aesthetic reasons, appealing to the symmetry of nature. A theoretical physicist or mathematician appreciates a beautiful theory much more than an ugly one. On July 30 2012 06:04 UrsusRex wrote: "It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks..." It wasn't its a truth I have observed more times than I can recall. People who make broad declarations about groups of people are never intelligent enough to make those judgements. That is not a fallacy it is reality. On July 30 2012 06:10 UrsusRex wrote: "How ironic that it is you here that making broad declarations about groups of people." Actually its an accurate observation. It would be a broad declaration if I did not meet these people and did not have this experience dealing with others. Nice try though. Regardless of whether your observation is "accurate" or not, you are being exactly the kind of person you're describing... | ||
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UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
No one is arguing the necessity of teaching math. Its whether or not algebra should be taught in high school and if it gives an benefits to society compared to teaching something else. | ||
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Elegance
Canada917 Posts
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UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
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). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. 
