EPTIs Algebra Necessary? - Page 29
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Blist
13 Posts
| ||
|
W2
United States1177 Posts
| ||
|
Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
This is something i could never believe for myself up untill recently. I thought that everyone who was realy smart, automatically had to be good at algebra, and it seems that manny people in this thread seem to think similar (probably because they are good at algebra) You just need to see one example to open your eyes (i know such an example, hence my opinnion on this subject in an earlier post) A person who always was "bad" in math and who had trouble understanding it, but who has achieved more and turned out to be smarter then everyone around him who was 10 times better in math. It is hard to believe but there is more about beeing smart then simply beeing good at math. Our current education puts to much value on math wich holds back equally intelligent people who simply dont "see" math yet have to "waste" countless and precious hours in university learning it. Hours wich could be spend alot more productivly by studying other subjects. | ||
|
Chaosu
Poland404 Posts
On July 30 2012 04:41 radscorpion9 wrote: Isn't the logical counter to this argument that math isn't the *only* subject that teaches logical thinking? I mean really, do you believe that you can't be logical if you don't learn math? Off the top of my head, what about philosophy class, or critical analysis of classic literature? Clearly you don't need math to learn how to think critically or logically; its just a useful tool towards that end. But if it largely teaches unnecessary things, then why not skip it and focus on things that are more relevant to students lives? not mixing critically and logically, did you know that philosophy studies are split (generally) between classical philosophy, natural philosophy (and metaphisics) and logic? i think it's safe bet that logic on philosophy studies is hated equally to math in high school... | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 04:21 micronesia wrote: Originally you asserted that a trick like a song shouldn't be used to teach formulas. In an ideal situation I agree... better to have people come up with things than give it to them (although I would argue that if you are already giving a kid a formula for whatever reason, then a song is no better or worse than another memorization method). Here is the problem I have with your approach (and this is without going into the practical limitations as an actual teacher in a school): Kids who get completing the square will very possibly be better off dealing with quadratics than they would have been if you just gave them the quadratic formula itself after factoring was learned. However, kids who struggle with completing the square will have no way of solving quadratics (other than factoring). Should the kid not progress in their math career until they can complete the square? It's not necessary to understand where the quadratic formula comes from in order to be successful in math/life/work/college/etc. Remember, I agree that it's better to understand than to be given, but not always practical. I didn't learn completing the square until precalculus, unfortunately. I think the argument here is that (beyond solving one-variable linear equations), math should be taught like art. You speak from the point of view that it is necessary that everyone learn the quadratic formula. I contend that this is hardly the case for people who don't go into technical fields, and furthermore, it's not even that important for a lot of actual math (higher algebra and analysis, for instance.) It is, however, important that engineers and physicists and chemists know the quadratic formula, but hopefully, these will be the types of people who are curious and bright enough to follow an organic derivation of something like the quadratic formula, rather than simply memorizing it. (Memorizers should go for law or medicine  But really, future lawyers and doctors should be able to follow logical arguments as well.)The problem here is that we're so hung up on "testing" math. "SAT math," for example, is a very strange chimera: much more than an average liberal arts major needs, but incredibly boring for anyone who's interested in math. But for some reason, we insist on testing the entire populace on such inane subject matter? What's needed is a complete reform of how we view mathematics and mathematics education. Math(beyond solving one-variable linear equations) should be treated like art: the teacher guides exploration, and it should be fun and interesting. Yes, there will be people who are very bad at math---but this shouldn't be treated terribly differently than someone who can't sing in tune or someone whose artwork wants to make you vomit: yes, you feel very uncomfortable that this person is so untalented, and you want to help them as much as possible, but it's not totally necessary to press the matter. (Especially for the "feelers" and "sensors" talked about but Servius_Fulvius---these people are very unlikely to go into a STEM field anyway, since their thought process isn't well-suited for it; why must they learn about converting polar coordinates to Cartesian coordinates?) I think this is what most mathematicians would like our math education to be like. Unfortunately, the status quo is not so easy to change... Such reforms are incredibly implausible, if downright impossible, because culturally, Americans see math as a "technical subject" whose lofty, overarching goal is to "get the right answer." No, "getting the right answer" is not the point. "Exploring interesting things within a logical framework" is the point. Yes, you would like to explore accurately, and engineers and scientists do often need to solve equations and the like. It's possible that they might have to memorize these equations (but then again, there's the internet and software to help with that.) But what the majority of students (people who go into non-technical fields... and also aspiring mathematicians and theoretical physicists!) would really benefit much more from an exploration-based approach. | ||
|
Felnarion
442 Posts
These people need to be helped. All kids should get 1 on 1 time, but what if they still don't get it? Do we just leave them to rot in the school, until they get tired of it, and quit? I think we need to look at alternatives. | ||
|
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
2. Algebra is actually very good for estimating intelligence. While nearly all subjects test only dedication and amount of effort a person puts into studying, algebra tests not only that but also the intelligence of the person. Certainly testing person's abilities is not the primary function of education but it is actually important. | ||
|
Deadlyhazard
United States1177 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:23 Cheerio wrote: 1. From what I know the brain continues to develop untill age 16 or something close. So some subjects that actually require intelligent thinking is required for youths to develop. History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect. 2. Algebra is actually very good for estimating intelligence. While nearly all subjects test only dedication and amount of effort a person puts into studying, algebra tests not only that but also the intelligence of the person. Certainly testing person's abilities is not the primary function of education but it is actually important. If algebra was great at estimating intelligence, I wouldn't even be able to speak (or type) right now because I couldn't learn words and how to combine them into sentences. That's how dumb I would be if algebra was a great indicator of intelligence, my friend. Fortunately it doesn't seem so.... | ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 30 2012 04:41 radscorpion9 wrote: I feel like lots of people are misreading the article. Quoting from the end: He's not saying that because its hard therefore we should eliminate it, people are turning into moral crusaders based on that simple misunderstanding. He's saying he doesn't think its necessary for people to go through training in Algebra if they won't end up using it meaningfully in their lives; and since it is obviously a huge stumbling block for many students according to the statistics and experts he cited, then it should clearly be reviewed for removal. If it were absolutely necessary, like long division and reading and writing, then he wouldn't bring this up. If people would simply read the article more carefully I feel like most of the uproar would die down and we could discuss the substantive issue of how algebra is used in our day to day lives. Isn't the logical counter to this argument that math isn't the *only* subject that teaches logical thinking? I mean really, do you believe that you can't be logical if you don't learn math? Off the top of my head, what about philosophy class, or critical analysis of classic literature? Clearly you don't need math to learn how to think critically or logically; its just a useful tool towards that end. But if it largely teaches unnecessary things, then why not skip it and focus on things that are more relevant to students lives? Anyway I don't have any conclusive opinion on this issue, but it is good to review what is being taught and how useful it is. The fundamental issue with the article is that it assumes you begin learning skills for your career in high school. Which it's not. It prepares you for college. I doubt a 13 year old knows whether or not he's going to be a lawyer. And I think a lot of 13 year-olds would elect not to take algebra if it were optional. He also begins by citing drop out statistics and implies its due to Algebra, and THEN brings up the point that learning Algebra, a subject some students may never use, can dissuade them from pursuing further education. Which is bullshit. Virtually every basic subject in high school has a very low chance of being used by any student in their future careers. At what point do we elect to have every class optional to the point a high school diploma becomes more meaningless than it already is? If we're going to draw a line it should be drawn at algebra. If students can't pass algebra then they shouldn't be granted a diploma. How are they going to learn any subject that's tedious and difficult in college if they can't pass Algebra? The issue isn't algebra, it's students -- which likely stems from schools/teachers/parents. I feel like some posters and this author especially don't have enough appreciation for being educated. | ||
|
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:29 Deadlyhazard wrote: If algebra was great at estimating intelligence, I wouldn't even be able to speak (or type) right now because I couldn't learn words and how to combine them into sentences. That's how dumb I would be if algebra was a great indicator of intelligence, my friend. Fortunately it doesn't seem so.... not being able to put words into sentences is the sign of mental retardation, not low intelligence. Though connected those are totally different things. | ||
|
Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
Ive always been a fan of the tier based teaching. The better you do the higher tier you are in. The lowest tiers take the 'standard exam' where its way easier but has a max C, the higher tiers take the normal exam, and the top tier does exams early etc. It means that everyone is taught at least basic maths, without holding back the smart people. | ||
|
PSdualwielder
Canada77 Posts
My picture of the current education cycle is that elementary and high schools give everyone the general knowledge they need across a bunch of fields to move on to do whatever they want to after that. Math is exactly the same case. You never know when you'll need to use graphs, curves, logarithms and whatever. As far as I remember, algebra in high school only deals with stuff like a=5, b = 6, what is a + b? If you can't even do that(yea of course there's more to it) how will you deal with the more advanced stuff you never expected to encounter. Its not about preparing children with the bare minimum or 'just what they need' for their post-secondary education. Because honestly most kids in high school don't know what they want to go into, much less what knowledge they need to possess in order to do that. I really don't think there's misdirecting resources in teaching children all the general knowledge like there is today. Math might be really difficult for many people at the high school age, teachers could be more lenient with the marking or lower requirements and whatever, but the knowledge has to be there. | ||
|
Deadlyhazard
United States1177 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:40 Cheerio wrote: not being able to put words into sentences is the sign of mental retardation, not low intelligence. Though connected those are totally different things. Well,a mentally retarded person is usually one who goes below an intelligence quotient of 70. What is low intelligence to you? Because I took an IQ test when I was in elementary school (was necessary to get in) and I wasn't anywhere near 'below average' yet, like I said previously in this thread, I failed college algebra three times and I studied for it hardcore. With a private tutor. Over the span of two years. Yet, I don't have low intelligence.............I still today can not understand very rudimentary, basic mathematics. The only reason I even passed college algebra was because the teacher basically put a cheat exam and dropped an exam grade (of 3 total exams) so nobody could fail. I didn't pass high school algebra after a couple tries, either. | ||
|
kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:50 ObliviousNA wrote: I agree we are much worse at math than we should be, but this is just a silly poll designed to confuse people. Parentheses exists for a reason, and nobody would ever write a problem like that. People don't memorize PEMDA because these problems don't exist in the real world. Anyone who writes obfuscated math like that deserves to be slapped. It's ridiculously easy anyways. PEMDAS is though during elementary school and mistakes like this are just disappointing. I blame not only the education system but the people in it. They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life. | ||
|
UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent. That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students. | ||
|
Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect." People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent. That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students. This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me  ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial. | ||
|
UrsusRex
United States85 Posts
I don't know math and I have no desire to learn it but I know that I have more willpower than most and am constantly learning. With all your math skills you are not intelligent enough to not generalize and stereotypes groups of people. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say? How has math made you smarter, more resolved or have a stronger desire to learn. I know you fall short compared to me, people who judge like you always do. | ||
|
]343[
United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:52 Squigly wrote: This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed. When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial. On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. On July 30 2012 05:54 UrsusRex wrote: "They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life." I don't know math and I have no desire to learn it but I know that I have more willpower than most and am constantly learning. With all your math skills you are not intelligent enough to not generalize and stereotypes groups of people. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say? How has math made you smarter, more resolved or have a stronger desire to learn. I know you fall short compared to me, people who judge like you always do. It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks... | ||
|
Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world. | ||
|
corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK. It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks... If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =) | ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CKKQl.jpg)
