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On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote:
Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it.
Too many of these posts -- you have to realize most people don't learn mathematics very quick, and for somebody like me (who probably has dyscalculia) I can't even do very, very basic math...like adding numbers below three digits sort of basic. You can only imagine how horrifying college algebra was for me. As stated previously in this thread, I failed it three times and finally got a C -- after a couple years of private tutoring for it.
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On July 30 2012 03:05 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote:
Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it. Too many of these posts -- you have to realize most people don't learn mathematics very quick, and for somebody like me (who probably has dyscalculia) I can't even do very, very basic math...like adding numbers below three digits sort of basic. You can only imagine how horrifying college algebra was for me. As stated previously in this thread, I failed it three times and finally got a C -- after a couple years of private tutoring for it.
There are obviously exceptions like you when you have dyscalculia but most high school students should be able to pass it atleast from what I've seen.
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On July 30 2012 02:09 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:37 jakeyizle wrote:On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote:
Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice. In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats). Edit: students entering high school in 2012-2014 are required to pass Algebra 2 as well. Edit 2: this is a practice Algebra EoC exam (end of course exam, passing it is required to get credit) http://www.flvs.net/areas/studentservices/EOC/Documents/Practice Test for flvs_net_Final.pdf That's not difficult. I wasn't good at maths but everyone with average intelligence has to be able to pass a test like that. I'm sure there are people who can't pass it but those are usually not very bright persons and wont use it later in their jobs either.
A multiple choice test for maths? In my opinion multiple choice tests are always a bad choice (how ironic!).
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too many bad math teachers
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I believe when you learn algebra you learn:
1. How to follow instructions
2. Analisys to when apply certain set of instructions (some times you have to use one set, pause, use another one, then continue but at the end is just following instructions)
3. Think a little bit for a change instead of just repeating/memorazing facts.
4 How so solve equations. Which actually is something you so a lot in your life if you handle money.
I wonder how many of those kids that fail at algebra has parents that call math "a hard subject"...
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lets not learn math cause 30% of the students drop out cuz of it!
WTF. There are some subjects in universities with 80% of the ppl failing. Not everyone dumb should be able to study...
Srsly, the math u have to learn for most studies is so extremly simple, ppl failing to get through that should wash dishes or so
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On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote:
Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it.
I think you are grossly overestimating the average student.
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The unfortunate problem with asking a question like this in a board like this is you're only going to hear from the educated or generally scholarly. Honestly, those saying that algebra is easy are the people that I feel mean the least in the discussion. Regardless of whether or not it was your best subject in school, if it was easy then it's not an issue to you in any way, and you're not exactly who this issue targets.
Frankly I think we expect too much considering what we have. I have no problem with a student struggling through algebra once, but we need to train our educators to see common threads in the issues of these students who are failing. We also need to acknowledge that the general idea that a higher education is necessary for all citizens is a failure to our citizens.
I went to school for art, and am currently working in a job that requires no degree, and does not pertain to the degree I went to school for. That said I use basic algebra pretty often (it helps a lot with excel), but think I could have been where I am even without ever having learned it. It's a topic I struggled with extensively in school and is part of the reason I ended up taking the education path I did (which was an immense mistake). I don't blame anyone or anything but myself for my failings, but when I think back at the teachers I had in high school who were not trained to see the symptoms of learning disabilities I was exhibiting I can't help but feel disappointed.
I don't mean to say that those of you who handled Algebra with ease don't have opinions or theories that are good or important to the discussion, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way in the initial paragraph. However I want to stress that those of you who can't fathom the issue at hand probably need to look at it from another point of view. I'm sure many of you mathematicians or computer scientists took an art course you didn't think was necessary or didn't think you needed to learn the history of Russia in the pre WW1 world (obviously for you Russians out there this doesn't apply). As an artist, I feel art classes are necessary as they teach an understanding and appreciation for culture, but I'd never expect you to know the rule of thirds or chiaroscuro. Put the fundamentals of algebra to work in real world situations and we'd be better off as a civilization, imo.
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Let me preface this by saying I don't know much about the US school system, but what on Earth is all this "students fail highschool due to failing algebra" stuff? How do you fail highschool? And why the fuck don't the US use a subject-by-subject exam system like almost everywhere else?
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It's also terrible because not teaching algebra at high school means there's going to be new freshmen in college that are going to want to be engineers or pre-med or something, but need algebra. Colleges will have to spend more time teaching kids things they should have learned in high school.
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On July 30 2012 03:05 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote:
Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it. Too many of these posts -- you have to realize most people don't learn mathematics very quick, and for somebody like me (who probably has dyscalculia) I can't even do very, very basic math...like adding numbers below three digits sort of basic. You can only imagine how horrifying college algebra was for me. As stated previously in this thread, I failed it three times and finally got a C -- after a couple years of private tutoring for it.
Sorry if my answer is too invasive, but doesn't dyscalculia qualify as some sort of disability? If so, please be assured that I am sympathetic towards your personal struggle, and I congratulate you on succeding in the end; however, I honestly wouldn't want to dismiss entire school subjects because some individuals have an illness.
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what a joke.
philosophy is tied to logic thus mathematics.
they could make math more like GRE where its more logic centered as opposed to memorized scheme centered.
either way, algebra is such a low difficulty that competency in this field should stay
too many bad math teachers
fact.
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On July 30 2012 03:17 Kasu wrote:
Let me preface this by saying I don't know much about the US school system, but what on Earth is all this "students fail highschool due to failing algebra" stuff? How do you fail highschool? And why the fuck don't the US use a subject-by-subject exam system like almost everywhere else?
In a lot of schools (it varies) there are bad consequences if you fail one or more classes. You may have to take summer school if you fail one or two, you may have to repeat a grade if you fail more. For some schools, you may be kicked out and have to attend another one. This causes a problem: school systems generally want to get these problem students out, so they give lots of D's when the students aren't necessarily deserving.
We do use a subject by subject exam system, I think. When you take the ACT you are tested on math, grammar, reading, and science (logical reasoning) separately and then given a composite score. The same goes for the SAT. You can also take AP classes for college credit with their own subject tests as well as SAT II tests to gauge ability in subjects like physics.
On July 30 2012 03:18 DoubleReed wrote:
It's also terrible because not teaching algebra at high school means there's going to be new freshmen in college that are going to want to be engineers or pre-med or something, but need algebra. Colleges will have to spend more time teaching kids things they should have learned in high school.
This is what I was thinking. Not everyone needs algebra, true, but learning it opens many doors for you to choose what you want to do later in life. Even if you manage to learn algebra+geometry+trig in one or two years, in that time you won't be learning something more advanced like Calculus since they build off each other to a large degree.
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a) don't change the curriculum; change the way it is taught
b) leverage technology
c) never lower standards; this doesn't help anyone
d) recognize those who need more help in learning the material, and do what is necessary to help them learn
e) understand that there are those that do not want to learn algebra; and will never
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On July 30 2012 03:10 CraZyWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 02:09 RvB wrote:On July 30 2012 01:37 jakeyizle wrote:On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote:
Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice. In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats). Edit: students entering high school in 2012-2014 are required to pass Algebra 2 as well. Edit 2: this is a practice Algebra EoC exam (end of course exam, passing it is required to get credit) http://www.flvs.net/areas/studentservices/EOC/Documents/Practice Test for flvs_net_Final.pdf That's not difficult. I wasn't good at maths but everyone with average intelligence has to be able to pass a test like that. I'm sure there are people who can't pass it but those are usually not very bright persons and wont use it later in their jobs either. A multiple choice test for maths? In my opinion multiple choice tests are always a bad choice (how ironic!).
There has actually been research on if students do differently on multiple choice exams and short answer exams. It turns out that there was almost no difference, the scores on the two tests are very similar. Multiple choice exams aren't that bad, with the added bonus of being so easy to grade!
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I'm sorry for not reading all of the thread, having got here late, but I see the general thrust of the posts...
I agree with you OP, that teaching "mathematical literacy" is a good alternative to teaching rote algebra. However, the one is much harder than the other for an average teacher to try and teach. The latter may not be effective -- indeed according to the article and general knowledge it is not -- but any semi-mathematical dolt can stand in front of 30 kids and drill them on some arcane theorems we discovered centuries ago. It takes a gifted teacher to even begin to explain "mathematical thinking" to people who aren't math people. And it would probably have a similar low rate of effectiveness, in terms of how many students can successfully provide a sophisticated and correct answer to the Fermi problems given as examples in the blog you linked.
I am all for teaching the thought process without the rote subject matter, and many times this is possible. Once a curriculum is developed and disseminated, I suppose this would be a matter of course and not a hurdle. Nevertheless, it is a significant challenge to create and hone this curriculum. Once "finalized" (whatever that means), every classroom would still suffer from a distribution of people with varying knowledge gaps. When you are testing on rote algebra knowledge, it doesn't matter if advanced kids aren't challenged. That's par for general education. But the most unsuccessful mathematician in a "math thinking" class would set the pace for everyone, quite dragging down the communal achievement level. Unless you just want to leave someone behind. Which is kind of what happens now for kids who just won't get it.
I am frankly scared about the prospect of a billion technicians who don't know their underpinnings. I'm not talking about social / humanities people anymore, but the supposed CAD designers and whathaveyou that have little clue about everything rigorous that makes their work possible. I really have no way to be objective about this, but even on the basis of "values" I think it's a strong case to say that we should have respect for the lineage of our knowledge. A global society that values knowhow, on the timescale of a career, more than knowwhat, on the scale of human civilization, seems somehow flimsier without much gained in the tradeoff, other than what? Dropout rates improved in the margins? Which is not to say you can't have both, but you can certainly overdo it on replacing one with the other. Depending on a tiny academic minority to hold the torch is... a gamble?
Paranoia aside, I think a history-oriented account of math would be very valuable for everyone, but it is often left out of most people's education unless they are a math major. This utterly confounds me, because learning the sequence of historical mathematical knowledge gives so much perspective and provides grounding when so often students are fed encyclopedic tidbits that probably don't provide any attraction without prior inclination. But if you see the whole arc of "important discoveries", even if you just go up through basic algebra, you have a sense of narrative that lends import beyond the pitiful "I should learn this because authority says I'm supposed to". And without soapboxing too much, I don't see how a future global society can get along without being centered on the journey of humankind in the scientific endeavor.
As you can see I attach existential importance to this issue, by way of extension. If not life and death, at least ask yourself if you want to live in a world where you don't expect your fellows to even entertain the idea that ancient knowledge empowering them should ever enter their heads.
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On July 30 2012 02:52 wswordsmen wrote:
The solution is better teachers. Algebra is the point at which text books start to become useless as tools for learning in math, As opposed to tools for practice which they are very good at. This means that more emphasis is put on the teacher to make up for the terrible text books. Unfortunately it means that the kids who do not pay attention in class have no chance in hell of passing.
A million times this. I've never heard of mass math-fear in many other countries, and algebra is readily tackled in grade school in many places. If our students can't learn this basic skill, it's a problem with our educational system and teachers, not with the students.
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On July 30 2012 03:35 5-s wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 02:52 wswordsmen wrote:
The solution is better teachers. Algebra is the point at which text books start to become useless as tools for learning in math, As opposed to tools for practice which they are very good at. This means that more emphasis is put on the teacher to make up for the terrible text books. Unfortunately it means that the kids who do not pay attention in class have no chance in hell of passing. A million times this. I've never heard of mass math-fear in many other countries, and algebra is readily tackled in grade school in many places. If our students can't learn this basic skill, it's a problem with our educational system and teachers, not with the students.
mass math-fear is common in other places as well and I don't think it's the teachers but rather people (as in the general population) telling everyone that math is some magical thing that only geniuses can do anyways.
I'm doing maths and you really learn to never tell anyone about it really fast (unless you're around good friends or people who do stuff like that as well). If you tell someone you plan on doing math when you're a grown up the first reaction usually is a
"wtf are you crazy?".
That's really not helping and imo that's the reason for this mass-fear and people failing in math so much, because if you're told that only weirdos and geniuses can do math like 10 times a day you eventually start believing that bullshit and you instantly made another child think math is incredible hard instead of giving him or her the oppertunity to go in classes unbiased.
Of course children fail at math if they go in their classes thinking "omfgomfg this is going to be so hard, everyone told me only the really smart kids are going to understand this class, I'm probably going to have a really hard time".
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I can't believe this is even a thread, of course it is and so is Calculus and Physics.
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EPT
